Subject: Re: The Tao of Posting
From: [email-masked] (Georgen Coyle)
Date: 10 Mar 1994 11:54:32 -0800
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern

>The reason the Tao, Ch'an, and Zen seem similar is that they
>are historically linked.  When Buddhism came to China (legend
>has it that Bodhidharma came from Ceylon to China about 520 AD),
>several Buddhist schools formed.  One, the "meditation school",
>was influenced by Taoism.  Partly it was probably translation --
>Ch'an (the meditation school) used the vocabulary and concepts
>of the Taoists to communicate meditative and abstract concepts.
>The word "Ch'an" is supposed to come from the Sanskrit "dhyana",
>which means meditation, the Japanese pronunciation of Ch'an is
>"Zen."  Zen, of course, has different practices than Ch'an --
>assimilating Japanese cultural elements, etc.
>
>This is just a sketchy history, of course, but Zen's link with
>Taoism is clear when you read Taoist writings.  I really feel
>that Taoism is a philosophy, not a set of practices -- I think
>one can be a Shaker taoist, a Pagan taoist, a Zen taoist.

,..... <del> .......,
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Georgen:

      The words of speaking or writting may commonly use by any
person in whatever way they want to, but, that does not mean the same
word they use which is meaning the same subject matter to them.

      We can always find the same word with more then 2 definitions,
so does the Zen and Taoism.  They can copy each other's vocabuary, but,
doesn't mean that they are talking about the same thing.

      If we are talking about influence from  Taoism in chinese culture.
It's in everywhere, philosophy, literture, political, science, and etc,...
almost every aspects.  except, some philosopher who strongly 
againest Taoism, they are belong to another extremity.

      This is a fact of chinese culture. Before Buddhism come into china
Taoism is the superior truth in philosophy and practice method.
You say Taoism is a philosophy which is true, but, it is also a practice
method.  In chinese culture, any philosophy is useless if it can not 
apply to the real life.  This kind of philosophy will soon be abandon.

      If Taoism can not apply to real life why there are tons of
different philosopher from different schools use the Taoism method and 
apply into they own way of expression.  I can say this for 100% sure is
 because  I am a Taoism Practictioner and a Buddhist in the same time.  

      There are lots Taoism method losted during the war in china after
war there're only a few Taoism practictioner left.  That is why we can
not see Taoism practictioners so offen in these days.  But, still there
are some schools in Taiwan teaching Taoism now.    

                                   Best Wish!
                                                yilin...      

From: [email-masked] (Christopher Millward)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: The Tao of Posting
Date: 11 Mar 1994 01:21:00 -0800
Approved: [email-masked] (Aaron Nabil)

OK, Let's see if I can add my voice to the fray of chattering birds,

@uacsc2.albany.edu:jk7023@albnyvms wrote:
: In article <[email-masked]>, Tyagi Nagasiva writes:
: >Is it 'towism', 'dowism' or 'dtowism'?

: 	It is however you say it.  What matters is the idea being given to the
: person/people that you're speaking with.  After all, "it" was named the Tao for
: lack of a better word.

Good, solidly obfuscatory answer from one who studies the Tao...but out of
a sense of fairness, I will foster "xiao zhi" (small understanding) and 
try to be more helpful. Actually, there is quite a humorous story surround-
ing this question. The first introduction I had to Taoism back in 1987 was
in a class I took with Vivian Nyitray at Columbia University. A friend of
mine in the same class needed a copy of the Dao De Jing (or Tao Te Ching
if you prefer traditional Wade-Giles romanization). She asked her mother to
buy the book for her, but was told that it wasn't in any book store on Long
Island. Well, we both found this hard to believe as it is one of the most
translated books from the Chinese language available in Western countries.
Her mother had of course been looking for something under "Dowism" which,
of course is how it sounds to the Western ear. OK...maybe it wasn't THAT 
funny, but it is at least relevant, which is a switch for me. :) 

Actually, for accuracy sake, you might try using the pinyin system when 
pronouncing these words. The Wade-Giles system has been in traditional 
use by sinoligists for years and was developed (I believe) by missionaries
ot traders in the eighteenth century. It uses a rather confusing system 
of adding " ' " to show aspiration of a consonant, hence t'ao is pronounced
tao as if with a t, while tao is pronounced dao, as if with a d (non-
aspirated). A final note as well, the last sound does not have a "w" final.
That is why there is no "w" at the end. Try pronouncing the vowel sound
without the "w" final. It may feel a bit funny at first, but, it is a good
habit to develop. And as regards tone, whih in Chinese is extremely
important, it is fourth tone so it has a downward moving, short, and a bit
choppy sound to it. Hence, in a nutshell "dao" :)

P.S. I find myself attached to certain uses of Wade-Giles as well, notably
the Tao. I don't like the look of Dao. But I do prefer Zhuangzi. Not only
does it keep people from saying "Chwayng zee" (I'm not kidding), it looks
really cool!

: >What is a tao?

: 	"The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao."  If you don't mind
: the possible arogance, I think I'm coming to understand it now, after only 2
: years of exposure.  What I'd like to point out is that you should simply expose
: yourself to the ideas and writings and let your thoughts go about their
: buisness.  It comes to you in time so long as you don't constantly stretch to
: it.  A decent summary is what _The_Tao_of_Physics_ called "physis."  After
: reading that, I started thinking upon a similar but new definition of "Tao."

I don't think it is arrogant, but perhaps a bit premature to say that one
understands the dao. Unless of course you have forgotten everything and 
your mind has become like "dead ashes". But if that were the case you may
not be posting to neswgroups. :) Actually this may move to answering why
there is little talk of Taoism on this group. Many Taoists have a strong
tendency to eschew language since it is generally confusing and not able
to say what they want to say. This disqualifies me as a "good Taoist" but
I don't claim to be anything of the sort, so it is little loss. I have 
been studying the Zhuangzi and other texts for six years now and every day
I find something that reminds me how little I understand. I don't think 
this is because I am dense. I think that there is more than a few basic
translations of ancient sources can give one in the realm of what is 
called Taoism.

The question however was, "What is a tao?" and it is a fine question indeed.
Tao in chinese means "way, road, path" and includes a verbal element that
these English words do not. Therefore it is also a "walking" The term I 
think should not be focused on too much since as was pointed out above,
tao is a mere convenience for what is more of a process by which things
move and a pattern within which they operate. Even this statement is laden
with far too many Western constructs to bother with its deconstruction. But
I think it would be better to not attempt to deconstruct tao and rather to
intuit its resonances. This may sound hokey to some more "rational" minds,
but believe me, it is infinitely more successful in enjoying the process
of tao. :)

: >Who was Lao Tzu?

: 	He may not have even existed, but he is the mythological writer of the
: Tao Te Ching.

: >What is the _Tao Te Ching_?

: 	I have, after more and more exposure to varrious Taoist things, come
: more to the feeling that this book was the first step to bringing Taoism into
: city life.  Taoism seems to have evolved out of the Chinese version of 
: shamanism.  I'd estimate 2000 years of Taoism, per se, before the Tao Te Ching
: and about 2000 (thought this 2000 I'm less sure of) years before that of
: pseudo-Taoist things.

There is considerable debate about the origins of Taoism and books like the
Tao Te Ching, Chuang Tzu, Lieh Tzu, etc. Actually, it may very well be that
the Confucians bestowed the title "Taoist" to those who were concerned with
less practical matters of statesmanship. Nevertheless, it has been suggested
by some, notably Michael Strickmann, that the Taoists were adamantly
opposed to the "shamanic" tradition that existed within the popular culture
at the time. Last week I was able to attend a seminar with Ned Davis, a
Song historian who suggested that there was probably a much more complement-
ary relationship between "Taoist" priests and shamans at the time where
shamans were considered useful for some things, notably exorcism, and the
priests were better at others, notably contacting the dead ancestors. 

Regardless, many scholars will tell you that "taoism" used to refer to
the practice of priests in the elite ranks of early China, the more ancient
tradition of shamanism which may have been the earliest "ritual" practice
in ancient China, and the books to which many refer when talking of "taoism"
notably the Tao Te Ching and the Chung Tzu, are three different things. 
Granted there has been a lot of historical fudging on the part of Chinese
and Western scholars concerning these three. But it is extremely telling
that "pseudo-Taoist" shamans were wholly unconcerned with anything that
might be called the "tao" They were very concerned with death and demon
possession. Neither Chuang Tzu or Lao Tzu refers to themself as a "Taoist"
even though later avowed "taoists" use these texts as principal books in
their "canon""

Not to be disparaging, but to say that shamanism is pseudo-Taoist seems
rather misguided. It is poor scholarship. It is increasingly clear, and
adamantly defended, especially by those that study "religious Taoism" these
days that Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu were *not* Taoists. They were astute
pre-Han philosophers. The texts that bear their names are used in Taoist
canons, but that does not make them "retroactively" Taoist thinkers. As I
said before, there are certainly similarities among some of the "theory"
behind Taoism, Chuang-Lao thought, and shamanism, but then again there
are also similarities between Taoism and Buddhist and Confucian thought.
Many of the everyday people then and now did not consider themselves any
more Taoist than Confucian. There were advanced practitioners of certain
arts but Taoist was not an equivalent term to say "Muslim" or "Christian"
in the Western idiom. But then again, I'm about to open up a whole new
can of worms. I hope the above answer is helpful.  

Funny, I looked back and now see that I wasn't answering the question at
all. Rather I was answering the answer! :0 What IS the Tao Te Ching?
Well, the simplest answer is that it is a book ascribed to Lao Tzu that
was purportedly written when he passed the Western Gate of the kingdom to
wander off and become immortal. The gatekeeper asked him to write down a 
little of his great wisdom and he begrudginly obliged with the little tome
that has survived to this day as the "Book about the way and its power"
It is perhaps the most frequently translated and widely available ancient
Chinese text in Western languages (the I Ching is the only challeneger)
and is ususally everyone's introduction to "Taoism"

: >Who was Chuang Tzu?

: 	A follow-up to Lao Tzu with a more approachable style.  He used stories
: and analogies rather than abstracts and complex, unreachable thoughts.  IMHO,
: he is a better introduction to city-Taoism than Lao Tzu.

I am not trying to be contentious, but how old are the sources that are
being used for these answers? Recent scholarship strongly suggests that the
Lao Tzu->Chuang Tzu lineage is flawed. Many scholars, A.C. Graham included,
believe that the Chuang Tzu predates the Tao Te Ching. Regardless, it is
not accurate to say that Chuang Tzu is a followup to the Tao Te Ching.
Chuang Tzu might have mentioned Lao Tzu if that were the case. He doesn't.
There ARE references to a Lao Tan in the Chuang Tzu, but no way to make any
clear connection between this character and the man we call Lao Tzu. For
every surname there are thousands of recipients! :) Tzu is an honorific 
term that basically means "master" 

We have no accurate biographical information on Chuang Tzu. The best we
can offer is that he may have been a minor official in Ch'i-yuan in 
present day Henan in the late 3rd century B.C. This is gleaned from a
note about him in Ssu-ma Ch'ien's "Shi Chi' or "Records of the Historian"
The text that bears the name Chuang Tzu is a splintered jumble of work
from many sources that was compiled much later. The first seven chapters,
the "Inner Chapters" are generally believed to be by the same hand and 
we call that the hand of Chuang Tzu. The book does indeed consist of
jokes and anecdotes and I agree, is much more "approachable" than the
Tao Te Ching. 

However, I will leave it at that. I have written much on the Zhuangzi.
Woops there I go again slipping into pinyin! :) And I find the text to be
the most inspiring and enjoyable book I have currently read. Otherwise
why would I be writing my dissertation on it? ;) if you want to e-mail me
I would be happy to talk more about this particular work, but I am 
beginning to get tired of typing right now.

: >What is the _I Ching_?  Is it taoist?

: 	A 3000 year old "book" (wasn't a book per se in its original form) that
: is an example of non-city Taoism.  It is often consulted as an orical or at
: least as an old source of non-city Taoist ideas.  It is alos an example of
: Taoism's evolution from shamanism, IMHO.

*Sigh* No the I Ching is not "Taoist" It was *not* derived from shamanism.
It was compiled very early on and used as a divinatory manual by the elite
classes in ancient China. It is based on numerology and *sigh* let's start
an I Ching string, how 'bout it? Then we can talk some more.

There is considerable debate as to what Zhuangzi meant when he spoke of
such things as breathing the dew and walking on fire without getting
burned, etc. Please do not fall into the trap of ascribing to Zhuangzi
the mantle of "mystic" Just because others have abused the text in the 
past doesn't mean we have to as well. (OK, sorry for the strong words) I
take back "abuse" But please don't ignore the rich practical and funny
philosophy of Zhuangzi. He was certainly not a breath-control, yoga, mystic
kinda' guy. :
Hmmm...How did that get there? vi editor really confuses me. The above
paragraph was meant to address the below question about breathing 
exercices, yoga, et al. Basically Zhuangzi finds these things to be the
trappings of the "life obssessed" petty man. Although they are better
than the "Service obssessed" Confucian.

)

: >What is the mystical practice of breath-control and chinese yoga to 
: > which Chuang Tzu and other popular taoist writers have referred?

: 	Its used in T'ai Chi Ch'uan and other body developing exercises.  T'ai
: Chi Ch'uan and Chi gong have been about for, depending on the source and the
: definition of these things, 6000 to 4000 years and are examples of the
: pseudo-Taoist things I mentioned.  They have evolved into more distinct things
: and into the sprawling group of things called "Taoism."  My personal,
: non-professional opinion is that they evolved from things that date back about
: 6000 years and evolved into what is more recognizable to us today by about 4000
: years ago.  They have since been refined much more into the exact forms that we
: know.  The movements are very old and the theory is newer but still very old. 
: The chi theories have evolved more and have stayed more or less the same over
: the last 2000 to 3500 years.

: 	Remember, this is all based off of the impressions that a few sources
: have collectively given me.  I could be wrong, but the general feel of what
: happened is what this is intended to portray.

: >Is there anything to this taoist alchemy?

: 	Don't think so.  At least, not what I've read about Taoist sexual
: alchemy.

There are other alchemies that are more like what Westerners think of 
alchemy (proto-Chemistry - I think this is Needham's term) But these folks
were swallowing mercury and cinnabar and quite often poisoning themselves.
They were trying to preserve their bodies, and they often died in the
process. Humorously they argued that those who were dead were not really
dead but just faking it! I'm not kidding. Basically I wouldn't recommend
traditional Taoist alchemy unless you enjoy swallowing toxic substances.

e >Have people ever become immortal through sex?

: 	Would be fun, but I don't know anyone who has personally.  :)

Agreed, I would certainly give it a shot! A humorous side note. The basic
technique that distinguishes Taoist sexual practices from other esoteric
sexual techniques, i.e. Tantric Buddhism, etc. is that the male is expected
to retain his yang energy and thus to forgo ejaculation. This is great for
the woman who has tons of fun. (Some actually complain though) ;) And,
although it may not sound like a barrel of laughs for the man, it should
keep your vital force intact. In the New York Times a while back there was
an article in the Science Times about worms. Apparently some scientists had
taken a control group of worms and placed them in a heterosexual environment
where they could propogate (which they did). They took another group and kept
them from having worm sex. Ultimately the unsexed worms lived longer than 
those that had their carnal desires fulfilled. It's a long way from worms
to folks, but it's a little food for thought.

BTW, practicing Taoist sexual techniques can be fun, especially if your
partner is into it as well.

: >Who are the Three Immortals and what import do they have in taoism?

: 	That's the _Eight_ Immortals and they're more a Chinese cultural thing. 
: However, some of them are said to be Taoists.  Also, in Chinese culture, I
: think that they are considered to be a Taoist thing, even if Taoists don't
: think of them as such.

: >What are the chances that neo-taoist scum will take over the universe 
: > and convert it to a mass-production scheme for little tai chi patches 
: > and correct translations of _Tao Te Ching_?? ;>

Taoists? take over the universe? What a humorous thought.

: 	Not very large.

: 	Didn't you post this whole series of questions once before?  I remember
: them all and I even remember answering most of them before.  Its kind of
: interesting to see how a few of my answers have changed based off of personal
: experiences and realizations.

: 							Weird

Whew, the end already? Well, hope that helped, and hope I didn't bore
anyone to tears. If so, stop crying. ;)

Peace,
Chris

--
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@								@
@	In closing I would like to propose a toast:		@
@								@
@			To knowledge...				@
@			and change...				@
@			and life itself...			@
@								@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

From: [email-masked] (Georgen Coyle)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: The Tao of Posting
Date: 13 Mar 1994 16:57:15 -0800
Approved: [email-masked] (Aaron Nabil)

GCoyle said:
 One, the "meditation school",
>was influenced by Taoism.  Partly it was probably translation --
>Ch'an (the meditation school) used the vocabulary and concepts
>of the Taoists to communicate meditative and abstract concepts.
>The word "Ch'an" is supposed to come from the Sanskrit "dhyana",
>which means meditation, the Japanese pronunciation of Ch'an is
>"Zen."  Zen, of course, has different practices than Ch'an --
>assimilating Japanese cultural elements, etc.

>yilin said:
>      The words of speaking or writting may commonly use by any
person in whatever way they want to, but, that does not mean the same
word they use which is meaning the same subject matter to them.

      We can always find the same word with more then 2 definitions,
so does the Zen and Taoism.  They can copy each other's vocabuary, but,
doesn't mean that they are talking about the same thing.
>

They are talking about the same thing.  The mechanics of the
syncretism, or blending, between Taoism and Buddhism in China
involved using the same language, but the end result was a 
blending of meaning.  When the Buddhists began to use the 
word "tao" to express the unexpressable, the Buddhism changed,
not the tao.  When you read the thousands of parables of
Zen masters being asked "What is Zen?", you can substitute
the word "Tao" for "Zen."  What is Zen? Zen. What is Tao? Tao.
They are both words we use for the unexpressable suchness.
Zen and Taoism do not copy each other's vocabulary -- Zen used
the vocabulary of Taoism and was therefore forever changed.

>GCoyle said:
 I really feel
>that Taoism is a philosophy, not a set of practices -- I think
>one can be a Shaker taoist, a Pagan taoist, a Zen taoist.

>yilin said:
      This is a fact of chinese culture. Before Buddhism come into china
Taoism is the superior truth in philosophy and practice method.
You say Taoism is a philosophy which is true, but, it is also a practice
method.  In chinese culture, any philosophy is useless if it can not
apply to the real life.  This kind of philosophy will soon be abandon.

      If Taoism can not apply to real life why there are tons of
different philosopher from different schools use the Taoism method and
apply into they own way of expression.  I can say this for 100% sure is
 because  I am a Taoism Practictioner and a Buddhist in the same time.

      There are lots Taoism method losted during the war in china after
war there're only a few Taoism practictioner left.  That is why we can
not see Taoism practictioners so offen in these days.  But, still there
are some schools in Taiwan teaching Taoism now.
>

Being a philosophy does not necessarily
mean that it is not a practical philosophy, concerning
everyday life.  Why the assumption that all philosophies
exclude contact with the real world?  If there are Taoist
schools in Taiwan, great; if there are Taoist practitioners
in the US, great, I'd like to know more about the daily 
practices. But this does not preclude the existence of 
Taoist philosophy, or the existence of pagan taoists, 
Zen taoists, Nature taoists, or whatever.  

be well.
-- 
Georgen Coyle  *  If thou wouldst into the infinite stride,
Wooster, Ohio  *  Explore the finite on every side.
               *                    -- Goethe

From: [email-masked] (Richard Man)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: The Tao of Posting
Date: 13 Mar 1994 22:29:12 -0800
Approved: [email-masked] (Aaron Nabil)

@uacsc2.albany.edu:jk7023@albnyvms wrote:
: In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Richard Man) writes:
: >Seriously, as many of this groups know, there are two "kinds" of Taoism, 
: >Taoist philosophy and the Taoist religion. They are quite interwined by now...

: 	I can't help but feel like you're missing some of Taoism as soon as you
: cut it up like that.  However, I must also say that, developmentally and
: characteristicly, it is possible.  Heck, I've done it.  ;)  Just make sure
: that, when you separtate the parts, you aren't saying things like
: "philisophical Taoism" and "religious Taoism" as they are, from any heavily
: exposed person's view, not accurate and tend to lead people in the wrong
: direction.

Sigh. It is a fact that there ARE two types of Taoism from China. There are
subtypes within the types, of course, and cross-borrowing etc. Hence I said
"they are quite interwined by now."

Philosophical Taoism originated way back, probably as a "refinement" of the 
shamanistic religions back in the dawn of time. Certainly by the the Warring
State period, it is fairly well established. The Ma-Wui tomb version of 
the Te-Tao-Ching is at least from 150 B.C. and certainly the Analects talked
about it too.

Religious Taoism is started by a gentleman named Chang-<something> around 150
A.D. of the Han dynasty. It borrowed a lot of ideas from the philosophical
Taosim. They are usually the Taoist monks you see (OK, at least in 
Chinese movies ;-) ).

This is history. Not my personal opinions.

I will use better terms from now on - Dao-Gar for philisophical Taosim, and
Dao-Ching for religious Taoism. 

: >
: >One can definitely practice Taoism, as well as contemplate Lao-Tze and
: >others all day...

: 	What's the difference?

Doa-Ching places supreme importance on symbols, rituals, and words. Lao-Tze
detests all those - even though he was supposedly a Keeper of "Li" (records
of rituals). If you do both, as I do, then you will have to resolve the
differences yourself.

Gotta run, may respond more later.

: >
: >// richard "Yes, I am making little tai-chi patches and working on the
: >perfect translation of the mui-wa copy of the Te-Tao-Ching ;-) " man
: >
: >

: 	Cool!  Can I help!  =)

: 						Chose my name for a reason,
: 						Weird

// richard
[email-masked]

From: [email-masked]
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: The Tao of Posting
Date: 13 Mar 1994 22:30:58 -0800
Approved: [email-masked] (Aaron Nabil)

940312 [Christopher inspires me to post.  Weird does not.  What gives?]

Some ignorant fool posted:

|Is it 'towism', 'dowism' or 'dtowism'?

Lots been said on this already.  Lin Yutang says 'dow' as in 'dowager'
and 'taoist' as in 'towel'.  Go figure.

|What is a tao?

Uh huh.

|Who was Lao Tzu?

Reputed author of the following tome.  Some claim him as a god.
Some say he was the Head Librarian and left his post because he
was disgusted with the politics and such of the city.  Typical
is the story which depicts him reaching a gate on his ox and the
gate-keeper, knowing him, requires that he write his wisdom down
before 'departing the world of dust'.

He is never seen again by normals.  Some say he went to the Isle
of the Blessed.  Others say to Shambhala.  Lots of stories.  Fun.

|What is the _Tao Te Ching_?

Lots of translations not only of the name (Way/Power, Way/Virtue,
etc.), but the word 'Ching' usually is translated 'classic' or
'scripture'.

|Who was Chuang Tzu?

Another writer, favored by self-described 'taoists'.  I guess that
he was more proseic.  'Inner Chapters' is quite humorous and some
of the works ascribed to him are very anarchic in their content.

|What is the _I Ching_?  Is it taoist?

Depends on what you mean by 'taoist'.  'I Ching' is usually
translated as 'Classic of Change' or 'Classic of Changes', and it
consists of several parts, largely revolving around several
(2/4/8/64) linear diagrams, which some associated with a binary code.

It was accompanied by commentary and put in a shiny, incomprehensible
order by someone named 'King Wen' and his follow-up, the Duke of Chou,
if memory serves.  I'm with Christopher here.  Another thread
on this is due.  Most in this newsgroup don't seem to want to discuss
it.  Sometimes alt.divination must get threads and I've seen alt.magick
develop one a time or two (usually with my input or seed).

|Is there any relationship between Bon and taoism?

While I understand that Bon is Tibetan in origin, I'm of a mind to think
that taoism is founded on some shamanistic principles/concepts/values.
In this way, since Bon is apparently the indigenous shamanism of Tibet,
there may be a very real link between the two, though this of course
depends on what one means by 'taoism'.

|What is the mystical practice of breath-control and chinese yoga to 
| which Chuang Tzu and other popular taoist writers have referred?

I've got conflicting data on this as yet.  There are the supposed
'philosopher-mystics', associated with Lao-Chuang , who sound rather
zen-like to me.  Then there are the stories of taoist yoga in which
one inflames the furnace within one's body and produces the fabulous
pill of immortality.  I have a feeling that this, like Kundalini, is
a technology for awakening described through a variety of models.

|Is there anything to this taoist alchemy?

Yes.

|Have people ever become immortal through sex?

I'm inclined to think this may be possible, depending on what one means
by 'immortal'.

|Who are the Three Immortals and what import do they have in taoism?

The questioner is apparently referring either to:

The Eight Immortals, who spring from more popular Chinese tradition

-or-

The Three Pure Ones, who quite possibly represent the forces of the major
 Chinese religions (Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism).

The former are quite important to taoist religion as icons of success
and inspiration.  The latter appear to be gods that may have some
specific influence upon human affairs.  At a certain point in time
taoist religion incorporated many deities into its fold and the
Three Pure Ones were part of them, I hear (from Blofeld of late).

|What about Shambhala?  Is there a chance Lao Tzu went there to live 
| after dictating the little book on tao and te?

Yes, there is a chance, though most scholars would scoff.

Remember: Scholar = Confucian; Mystic/Mage = Taoist  (shhhhh, don't tell)

|What is te, anyways?
|Is it virtue?  power?  love?

Could be.  I'd like to see 'tao' and 'te' with their own threads too.
The issues regarding these terms are too often passed over as 'knowledge'
when in fact there is at least a modicum of ambiguity.

|What does it take to become a taoist?

Popularly it takes 'following the Way'.
There are sects which claim that one must follow their particular doctrine
(not those of the competing demons) in order to qualify.

|What are the chances that neo-taoist scum will take over the universe 
| and convert it to a mass-production scheme for little tai chi patches 
| and correct translations of _Tao Te Ching_?? ;>

We are already doing so.

|Tyagi Nagasiva (Question Monitor)
[email-masked]

Oops!  That was me!!!!!

Tyagi Uzt

From: [email-masked] (Georgen Coyle)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: The Tao posting (comment to Coyle)
Date: 13 Mar 1994 17:00:42 -0800
Approved: [email-masked] (Aaron Nabil)

>Yi L Chiang said:
>     Because the disscusion of Zen easily lead some one into the dead corner of
Buddhism and that is all because the wrong interpuration of Zen or lack of right
trainning of Zen practice.
     I am very strongly againest some one who posting Zen article without a
right trainning in Zen.  It is a very harmful thing to Zen practice. Not only
due to the readers and also to the writer who must take the responsibility of
all the wrong thoughts toward Zen from each reader.
     Misguidding one person on the road of Buddhism is a big resposibility and
a big mistake to make.  This none-virtue seed will plant into one's mind ground
and sprout the bad effect that make one has more difficulty to learn and
practice Buddhism.
>

So, I guess the assumption here is that any discussion of Zen
is bad because it is being done by people without "proper"me
training and could poison the minds of the impressionable?
I suppose that free discussion of any serious topic entails
responsibilities that most of us do tend to forget.  We
shouldn't persuade unconciously or overemphasize er dellusion
our "expertize."  But everyone also has the responsibility
for their own minds, practices, self-protection.
I will not curtail my free expression of my views or
experiences because someone might misinterpret them or be
negatively effected.  I'm not trying to persuade anyone
that my way is best when I talk about it; I think the world
would be a boring place if everyone did and thought the same
things.  But this existence is a forever interlocking one.
We all effect each other; the oak tree outside my window
effects everything too.  To run away from this fact by
trying to avoid contact with others is just another dellusion

And the assumption that I don't have "right training" in
Zen is also erroneous.  But luckily, I don't need a to list my
Zen Practice resume to participate in discussions on this 
board.

be well.
-- 
Georgen Coyle  *  If thou wouldst into the infinite stride,
Wooster, Ohio  *  Explore the finite on every side.
               *                    -- Goethe

From: [email-masked]
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: The Tao of Posting
Date: 16 Mar 1994 05:54:00 GMT
Approved: [email-masked] (Toshi Takeuchi)
Originator: [email-masked]

940314

mun%PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_GATEWAY_FILE@
uunet.UU.NET (Richard Man) writes:

|...It is a fact that there ARE two types of Taoism from China. There are
|subtypes within the types, of course, and cross-borrowing etc. Hence I said
|"they are quite interwined by now."

I'm not sure this is considered a 'fact'.  It is certainly a prevalent idea.

|Philosophical Taoism originated way back, probably as a "refinement" of the 
|shamanistic religions back in the dawn of time. Certainly by the the Warring
|State period, it is fairly well established. The Ma-Wui tomb version of 
|the Te-Tao-Ching is at least from 150 B.C. and certainly the Analects talked
|about it too.

Documents and a few philosophers do not a social tradition make.  Are you
saying that 'philosophical Taoism' was a social movement, or do you consider
it to be a string of interested philosophers, a smattering of intellectuals?

Most importantly, why do you think that these folks were Taoists?  Didn't
they write about Taoism, Confucianism AND Buddhism?

|Religious Taoism is started by a gentleman named Chang-<something> around 150
|A.D. of the Han dynasty. 

Chang Tao-ling (or sometimes 'Chang Ling' or just 'Master Chang') is the
original Taoist, period. :>   Master Chang is said to have died between
157 and 178 CE.  Various stories surround his death and history.  By many
Taoists he is considered to be the Celestial Master (aka Heavenly Teacher,
or 'T'ien-shih'), most Taoists today acknowledge his authority, and there
is at least one sect which claims an apostolic connection.

|It borrowed a lot of ideas from the philosophical
|Taosim. 

Please detail what was borrowed, aside from the use of _Tao Te Ching_, among
quite a tumult of text.

|This is history. Not my personal opinions.

Yeah, right.

|I will use better terms from now on - Dao-Gar for philisophical Taosim, and
|Dao-Ching for religious Taoism. 

Please explain why you make this distinction and what these words 'Gar' and
'Ching' represent for you.

|Doa-Ching places supreme importance on symbols, rituals, and words. Lao-Tze
|detests all those - even though he was supposedly a Keeper of "Li" (records
|of rituals). 

How do you know what Master Lao detests?  Why would he have a distaste for
symbols, rituals and words?  Is this expandable beyond his person?  Just
what are you trying to say here?

|If you do both, as I do, then you will have to resolve the
|differences yourself.

What do you do when you 'do both'.  Please detail.

|: >// richard "Yes, I am making little tai-chi patches and working on the
|: >perfect translation of the mui-wa copy of the Te-Tao-Ching ;-) " man

Glad to hear this. :>

|// richard
[email-masked]

Tyagi Uzt