From ind00475@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu Fri Jul 15 04:16:29 1994 Date: Sat, 9 Jul 1994 20:23:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adam D. Trowbridge" To: sci30468@nus.sg Subject: Benares Tend, XXL was asking Sangha about the eightfold path and the four noble truths and he could not remember all of the eightfold path and neither could I. Later someone else ask me about the steps on the eightfold path. I thought you might want to add this to Tend2's collection of available files. If you plan to use it, please read through for any mistakes :) The Sermon at Benares Thus have I heard: at one time the Lord dwelt at Benares at Isipatana in the Deer Park. There the Lord addressed the five monks:- "These two extremes, monks, are not to be practiced by one who has gone forth from the world. What are the two? That conjoined with the passions and luxury, low, vulgar, common, ignoble, and useless; and that conjoined with self-torture, painful, ignoble, and useless. Avoiding these two extremes the Perfect One has gained the enlightenment of the Middle Path, which produces insight and knowledge, and tends to calm, to higher knowledge, enlightenment, Nirvana. "And what, monks, is the Middle Path, of which the Perfect One has gained enlightenment, which produces insight and knowledge, and tends to calm, to higher knowledge, enlightenment, Nirvana? This is the noble Eightfold Way: namely, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This, monks, is the Middle Path, of which the Perfect One has gained enlightenment, which produces insight and knowledge, and tends to calm, to higher knowledge, enlightenment, Nirvana. "(1) Now this, monks, is the noble truth of pain: birth is painful, old age is painful, sickness is painful, death is painful, sorrow, lamentation, dejection, and despair are painful. Contact with unpleasant things is painful, not getting what one wishes is painful. In short the five groups of grasping are painful. "(2) Now this, monks, is the noble truth of the cause of pain: the craving, which tends to rebirth, combined with pleasure and lust, finding pleasure here and there; namely, the craving for passion, the craving for existence, the craving for non-existence. "(3) Now this, monks, is the noble truth of cessation of pain, the cessation without a remainder of craving, the abandonment, forsaking, release, non-attachment. "(4) Now this, monks, is the noble truth of the way that leads to the cessation of pain; this is the noble Eightfold Way; namely, right views, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. " `This is the noble truth of pain': Thus, monks, among doctrines unheard before, in me sight and knowledge arose, wisdom arose, knowledge arose, light arose. "`this noble truth of pain must be comprehended.' Thus, monks, among doctrines unheard before, in me sight and knowledge arose, wisdom arose, knowledge arose, light arose. "`It has been comprehended.' Thus, monks, among doctrines unheard before, in me sight and knowledge arose, wisdom arose, knowledge arose, light arose. "`As long as in these four noble truths my due knowledge and insight with the three sections and twelve divisions was not well purified, even so long, monks, in the world with its gods, Mara, Brahma, its beings with ascetics, brahmins, gods, and men, I had not attained the highest complete enlightenment. This I recognized. "And when, monks, in these four noble truths my due knowledge and insight with its three sections and twelve divisions was well purified, then monks ... I had attained the highest complete enlightenment. This I recognized. Knowledge arose in me, insight arose that the release of my mind is unshakable: this is my last existence, now there is no rebirth." From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Thu Apr 14 16:28:55 1994 Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 16:00:07 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 13 Apr 1994 to 14 Apr 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 12 messages totalling 347 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta (2) 2. Fonts and Indological standards 3. Vedanta and Zen (3) 4. Reincarnation 5. Buddhism in Russia 6. Netetiquette tips (2) 7. Vedanta and Zen in the West 8. BUDDHA-L Digest - 12 Apr 1994 to 13 Apr 1994 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 16:25:51 EDT From: Alan Sponberg Subject: Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Actually I have no desire to try to straighten Richard out---as he proposed a few days ago. In fact my favorite people, it seems, are all delightfully bent (and often these days increasingly well-rounded to boot)! What I would like to do is raise a question I have had for some time, one related to Richard's comment about "Sa.mkara's reliance on Vedic authority. Setting aside for the moment whatever ontological similarities or dis- similarities there may be between Vedanta and certain Buddhist teach- ings, I wonder if the ethical thrust of the two systems isn't radical- ly different, in practice as well as theory. I should quickly point that I have no claim to being a scholar of Vedanta, so perhaps I am simply revealing an inadequately informed bias. Nonetheless I have the sense that however similarly radical the ontology and epistemology of Vedanta and certain forms of Buddhism may be, Buddhism is far more radical ethically. I am thinking in particular of its historically more pronounced tendencies towards social criticism---of the caste system, for example. Of course Buddhists have not always lived up to their ethical ideals, but those ideals do seem more centrally articu- lated than anything I recall from Vedanta, and there are notable in- stances, both traditional and modern, where some Buddhists have taken those ideals very seriously. But perhaps to be fair to Vedaanta, we'd better get some INDOLOGY types involved in this discussion. Any simple way to do that Richard? Mettaa, Alan Sponberg ************************************* Alan Sponberg, Professor of Asian Philosophy and Religion Asian Studies Program, Arts & Sciences Bldg. University of Montana, Missoula, MT 59812 E-mail: sponberg@selway.umt.edu Ph: (406) 243-2803 FAX: (406) 243-4076 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 16:29:48 EDT From: "Wm. B. Douglas" Subject: Re: Fonts and Indological standards ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- There is a proposed Unicode standard for Sanskrit and, I think, for transcription of South Asian languages. The problem is that it's a 16- bit standard which many computers can't handle - i.e. Macs and PC's. It may well be that we limp along with macros to convert back and forth from the informal mailing list standard until something better coms along; the Unicode standard is, I believe, slowly gaining accept- ance as a baseline for East Asian scripts, although actual display systems seem to use KIS, JIS, or what have you on the individual machines. It is a frustrating situation. I suspect we all have a fair amount of text already committed to one font system or another, neh? Far and away the best set of Postscript Sanskrit fonts I've seen is the Ecological Linguistics set, although you _do have to pay for them. There is also a transcription font. They also do almost every other script known, including things like Karosthi and even (although still under development) Harappan. They are available for both Mac and PC/ Windows. Try for info; the proprietor's name is Lloyd Anderson. William. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 09:05:29 EDT From: John Richards Subject: Vedanta and Zen ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- There is sometimes a tendency in the West to forget that neither Vedanta nor Zen were originally devised for the sake of classificat- ion. They are both really just the fortuitous detritus of enlightened men trying to pass on their vision to their immediate disciples, for whom this experience of reality was the only and over-riding aim. In talking about the differences between Zen and Vedanta, are we talk- ing about differences in the language and cultural backgound they de- veloped in, which is undoubtedly very different (India and China), or are we assuming there is an essential difference in the reality, the Truth they are trying to convey? If this is the case, then presumably one (or possibly BOTH) are essentially WRONG. Which one? Sometimes differences in terminology can conceal agreement on the underlying truth. Even D. T. Suzuki is happy to express himself in terms that show that differences on language are not necessarily dif- ferences in truth. "Buddhataa or Dharmataa is the name given by Mahayanists to that which is not the self and yet which is the self." (Essays in Zen Buddhism, Second Series, p. 283) "By clinging to the rope many have fallen into the well." (Rumi) --------------------------------------------------------------------- John Richards Stackpole Elidor (UK) jhr@elidor.demon.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 09:09:50 EDT From: Andrew_Doust@rbgsyd.GOV.AU Subject: Reincarnation ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hello, I'm researching a book on reincarnation in the Tibetan tradit- ion, especially with regard to tulkus being born as westerners. What I would like to know is whether there are any references made by the Buddha to the ability to control one's reincarnation. Also, does any- one know (or can point me to the appropriate references) as to how and why the Tibetans got started on this tack. Thanks a lot. Andrew Doust Vajrayana Institute Sydney, Australia andrew@rbgsyd.gov.au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 09:34:03 EDT From: lee Subject: Re: Buddhism in Russia ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Interesting! It seems as though the journal is just trying to get on its feet. I'm sure there are great populations of buddhists, espec- ially Lamaists, in the former Soviet Union. OK, back to study. --lee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 09:37:35 EDT From: Michael Cohen Subject: Re: Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Wed, 13 Apr 1994, Alan Sponberg wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > Setting aside for the moment whatever ontological similarities or dis- > similarities there may be between Vedanta and certain Buddhist teach- > ings, I wonder if the ethical thrust of the two systems isn't radical- > ly different, in practice as well as theory. I should quickly point > that I have no claim to being a scholar of Vedanta, so perhaps I am > simply revealing an inadequately informed bias. Nonetheless I have the > sense that however similarly radical the ontology and epistemology of > Vedanta and certain forms of Buddhism may be, Buddhism is far more > radical ethically. I am thinking in particular of its historically > more pronounced tendencies towards social criticism---of the caste > system, for example. Of course Buddhists have not always lived up to > their ethical ideals, but those ideals do seem more centrally articu- > lated than anything I recall from Vedanta, and there are notable in- > stances, both traditional and modern, where some Buddhists have taken > those ideals very seriously. > > But perhaps to be fair to Vedaanta, we'd better get some INDOLOGY > types involved in this discussion. Any simple way to do that Richard? I too am not a scholar of Advaita Vedanta nor am I an INDOLOGY type but I can acknowledge a fair amount of bias. One can find a philosophical basis for ethics in Sankara's thought through his delineation of the "three sattas." Similiar to Buddhism's paramartha/samvrti designation of reality, the three sattas posit a relative and mental reality as well as absolute reality. Relative reality is the seat of ethics, as it is in Buddhism. Although ethics may not be the main thrust of the Advaita vision or methodology, it is nonetheless markedly noticed in its adherents. The traditional Advaitins in India, the Sankaracharyas who are the heads of important ashrams, have historically been powerful social influences and moral arbitrators. Many large neo-Vedanta movements have used their success to begin hospitals, schools and other social institutions. I hope this reply displays sufficient bais to satisfy doubt regarding Sankana's ethics. Please run out and read A.J. Alston's 6 volume, A Samkara Source-Book, available through Shanti Sadan in London (1981). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 10:47:23 EDT From: "gfitz@vnet.ibm.com (Greg Fitzpatrick)" Subject: Re: Vedanta and Zen ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Well, having (successfully!) started this thread a few days ago, I think I'll throw in another 2 cents (pence?) at this point: John Richards writes good stuff, including: > Sometimes differences in terminology can conceal agreement on the > underlying truth. Even D. T. Suzuki is happy to express himself in > terms that show that differences on language are not necessarily dif- > ferences in truth. "Buddhataa or Dharmataa is the name given by > Mahayanists to that which is not the self and yet which is the self." > (Essays in Zen Buddhism, Second Series, p. 283) To continue in this vein... Several scholars (well, those more scholarly than I) have gone to some length to point out that Vedanta and Zen differ in a most fundamental respect: Vedanta embraces the concept of aatman (self), whereas Zen (and Buddhism in general) embraces anaatman (no-self). How much more different could two approaches be than this? One could speculate that the two views are not incompatible at their root, but are two sides of the same "koan". Each approach means to convey to its adherents that the isolated, separate, compartmentalized "self" that the unenlightened human preceives is ultimately illusory and the root of suffering. Whether one takes the Vedanta road (self as one with the "Ultimate Self") or the Zen road (no self at all), might one not reach the identical enlightenment? Well, now I'm getting a bit speculative for this list. Have there been any scholarly attempts to reconcile aatman/anaatman? Do a Zen roshi and a Vedanta yogi really believe two radically different things? Gassho. /gpf/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 10:54:51 EDT From: Jim Cocks Subject: Netetiquette tips Here are some tips on quoting that I'd like to pass on in the vein that it will allow us to make more effective use of this medium. If I were Richard I could probably make this so funny your sides would hurt :-) 1. Try to avoid quoting too much of the post you are replying to. Some people try to quote the whole post. Ten or more consecutive lines of quoted material is probably too much. In fact, more that 5 is many times too much. 2. Never quote a .signature file, unless of course, you are commenting on it. People saw it the first time and can easily retrieve it from the log files. 3. Try to avoid massive .signature files. Regular readers will tend to find them a pain. Four lines is a good limit. ASCII art, while not conveying much in the first place, can cause havoc with some systems that don't process certain special characters. Cheers, Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 13:26:37 EDT From: Jim Cocks Subject: Re: Netetiquette tips >In fact, more that 5 is many times too much. Should read: In fact, more than 5 may be too much. Sad part is I "proof" read it before I sent it :-)) --Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 13:31:53 EDT From: mbury@ucdavis.edu Subject: Re: Vedanta and Zen in the West ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This is to reply belatedly to the original questioner's statement that Zen is better known in the West than Vedanta. To my observation, this is a generational thing. Before World War II, I would venture that it was Vedanta that was better known and had a larger following--and that this had to do with differing popular images of India and Japan at the time: India agreeably exotic, Japan warlike and mechanical when not simpering under the cherry blossoms. Persons engaged in the spiritual quest were more likely to turn toward India. I can't offer hard data, but the topic might be a fascinating one for a cultural historian. In terms of current popularity, the questioner might like to know that the San Francisco Vedanta Society (again, to personal observation) seems to be flourishing. Their Old Temple on Vallejo Street has a lovely garden (visible to inhabitants of the neighboring highrise), they have a place for wilderness retreats (highly recommended by a friend), and their services and meetings add to the neighborhood park- ing problem. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 13:33:44 EDT From: Marc Wachowitz Subject: Re: Vedanta and Zen ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > One could speculate that the two views are not incompatible at their > root, but are two sides of the same "koan". One might just look at the teachings of Huang-Po, who again and again tells that all is "the one mind", and similar teachings appear from a few other Zen teachers as well. Huang-Po's well-known disciple Rinzai (Lin-Chi) emphasizes that there's nothing which had a self, and still considered Huang-Po as one of the greatest teachers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * wonder everyday * nothing in particular * all is special * Marc Wachowitz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 15:43:00 EDT From: hal roth Subject: Re: BUDDHA-L Digest - 12 Apr 1994 to 13 Apr 1994 ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Thanks to Matthew Ciolek for the info on Sekida. Further info gratefully accepted, especially viz. whether or not he is still alive. NEW INFO REQUEST: A friend who does professional translation between English and German has approached me for information about a book she is now translating on a Japanese religion called Ichinyo no michi. The author of the book, from what I can gather over the telephone is "Shinnyo Kyooshu." Sounds like a "new religion" to me. Can anyone provide some basic info and possible English language sources? Thanks in advance. Hal Roth ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 13 Apr 1994 to 14 Apr 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Fri Apr 15 16:28:31 1994 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 16:00:07 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 14 Apr 1994 to 15 Apr 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 14 messages totalling 524 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Gomez reference 2. Reincarnation 3. Article Request 4. Buddhism in Russia 5. Fonts and Indological standards (2) 6. Diacritical fonts for MAC 7. Announcing Gesture-L electronic forum 8. Vedanta and Zen 9. BUDDHA-L Digest - 12 Apr 1994 to 13 Apr 1994 10. subtle body / rules of evidence 11. Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta -Reply (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 17:11:49 EST From: Richard P Hayes Subject: Gomez reference Date: Thu, 14 Apr 94 17:08:09 EST From: Richard P Hayes To: Subject: Re: Your Gomez ref. >I'm attempting to read Nagarjuna right now and would love to get >the Gomez paper you mentioned. Could you tell me what the full >citation is? Gomez, L. O. (1976) Proto Madhyamika in the Pali Canon. Philosophy East and West 26 (2) 137-65. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 08:54:39 EDT From: Mark Blackstad Subject: Re: Reincarnation ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by Sygol Rinpochet comes to mind. This book also has a reference list if I remember correctly. Mark Blackstad MBLACKS@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 09:02:44 EDT From: "O. Rotem" Subject: Re: Article Request ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Franz, You wrote that: > > Or, you can email me and I'll send you a (long) paper I wrote on Mus's > work in this area. I wouldn't toot my own horn like this, except that > Mus's work is so difficult to find and read and yet so important. (Can > you tell I spent a good deal of time with Frank Reynolds? :-) ) > I would be glad if you could send this (long) paper. Thanking you in advance, Ornan Rotem Centre for Buddhist Studies Bristol University, UK ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 09:03:28 EDT From: Lefty Subject: Re: Buddhism in Russia ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > >Interesting! It seems as though the journal is just trying to get on >its feet. I'm sure there are great populations of buddhists, espec- >ially Lamaists, in the former Soviet Union. "Lamaists"!? Could we please attempt to find some term that those who are practitioners of Vajrayana Buddhism might find a tad less offensive. I thought that sort of thing went out with Waddell... -- Lefty (lefty@apple.com) C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 09:03:53 EDT From: Lefty Subject: Re: Fonts and Indological standards ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- John McRae writes: > There have been many recommendations regarding Mac fonts that can > handle diacritically marked characters recently (I guess the original > inquiry was actually for fonts that could handle Sanskrit and Tibetan, > if I remember correctly). I don't recall anyone mentioning K. R. > Norman's fonts (done for him but bearing his imprimatur), which exist > as Truetype, Postscript, and bitmapped fonts for the Mac. As far as I > know (I haven't used them much as yet myself) they work only on System > 6 -- perhaps someone could convert them??? This can't be correct. There's no reason that _I_ know of that fonts which work under System 6 would fail under System 7. -- Lefty (lefty@apple.com) C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 09:04:22 EDT From: Lefty Subject: Re: Diacritical fonts for MAC ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > >I am seeking a source for diacritical fonts for Word for MAC. >Can someone help me. Thanks. Pierre Robillard's Tibetan fonts for the Macintosh (available from Snow Lion, Ithaca, NY, 1-800-950-0313) include a couple of sets of diacritical fonts. -- Lefty (lefty@apple.com) C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 09:04:44 EDT From: "T.Matthew Ciolek" Subject: Announcing Gesture-L electronic forum ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear Colleagues, Apologies for any cross-posting. Please feel free to forward the message to other interested persons. ==================================================== About the GESTURE-L - a new forum on majordomo@coombs.anu.edu.au ==================================================== The GESTURE-L Forum was established to provide a world-wide communications vehicle and a central electronic archive for anyone working on, or interested in the study and documentation of gestures, gesture systems and alternate sign languages. This includes the study of the use of gesture or gesticulation in everyday conversations, formal or conventionalized gestures known as "emblems" or "quotable gestures", "gesture systems" such as have been described for work settings of various kinds (stock markets, race tracks, factories, and the like) and alternate sign languages, (sign languages used in hearing communities as an alternative to speech) such as those used among the Australian Aborigines, the Plains Indians of North America, in certain European monastries, and other groups. It is hoped that the Forum will make possible the development of a wide range of cultural and social comparisons in gesture use. The Forum begins operation without a moderator and is open to all, subject to subscription approval by the Listowner (see below). The Forum is the joint initiative of the Coombs Computing Unit, Research Schools of Social Sciences & Pacific and Asian Studies, The Australian National University, and Dr Adam Kendon , Research Associate, Center for Urban Ethnography, Graduate School of Education University of Pennsylvania, USA. [Mailing address for Kendon is 43 West Walnut Lane, Philadelphia, PA 19144 USA]. Participants are free to join and leave the Forum at any time. All participants will be expected to maintain truly coherent, crisp and courteous styles of communication. Those who do not may be asked to leave the list. TECHNICALITIES: 1) to join (subscribe to) the forum send e-mail ----------------------------------------------- to: majordomo@coombs.anu.edu.au message: subscribe gesture-l your e-mail address eg: subscribe gesture-l xyz@abacus.abc.edu.au English is the preferred language of communication of this Forum. Contributions by forum members should be sent to: gesture-l@coombs.anu.edu.au To contribute, you must have subscribed and been approved as a member of the list of contributors. Approval to join the Forum is a 'pro forma' operation, but subscription does permit some basic control of the contents of submissions by the list owner. Any submission to the forum is immediately broadcast to all subscribed members, and a copy automatically archived. Anyone, whether a registered member or not, can electronically view and retrieve the communications to the forum using a database 'ANU-Gesture-L' accessible through the standard WAIS software and through the ANU's COOMBSQUEST Social Sciences and Humanities Information Facility gopher running on the coombs.anu.edu.au, port 70 as well as on the cheops.anu.edu.au, port 70 machines. Bibliographic information is always welcome and such contributions, if submitted, will be archived on in the Coombspapers Social Sciences Research Data Bank at ANU available by ftp/gopher access on the coombs.anu.edu.au (port 70) system. LIST OWNER: Dr Adam Kendon NETWORKING SUPPORT: Dr T.Matthew Ciolek 15 April 1994 with many regards, -================================================== Dr T. Matthew CIOLEK tmciolek@coombs.anu.edu.au Coombs Computing Unit, Research School of Social Sciences, Australian National University, Canberra, ACT 0200, Australia =================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 09:05:11 EDT From: Andrew Fort Subject: Vedanta and Zen ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Although I hesitate to enter the fray given my current time constraints, here I go with some reactions about "Vedanta" and Zen. "Vedanta" is a very broad term, from the Upanisads to Sankara to Ramanuja to Madhva to Vallabha, etc. I assume that most who speak of Vedanta are refering to Sankara's Advaita tradition, which includes such luminaries as Mandana Misra (in his later "incarnation"), Suresvara, Sarvajnatman, Vimuktatman, Citsukha, Prakasatman, Prakasananda, and Madhusudana Sarasvati. It also _may_ include such neo-Vedantins as Vivekananda and Radhakrishnan, but there is certainly a major break between the former group and the latter. So, in comparing "Vedanta" and Zen, one should further specify who, which school, when, etc. For example, gfitz writes about the possible similarity between a Zen roshi and a "Vedanta yogi." What is a "Vedanta yogi?" Who uses such language in the tradition? Re Advaita vs. "Buddhism" ethically: of course there is no one "Buddhism" either. However, I agree that taking the Veda and the varnasrama-dharma as foundational, as Advaitins did, virtually requires a profoundly different "ethic" than does the Buddha's teaching. On this, one might refer to, among others, Wilhelm Halbfass' _Tradition and Reflection_ (SUNY Press, 1991). Re John Richards' remarks that schools are mere "classifications" of enlightened beings' visions. Sankara and his followers did not make such claims. Sankara is well-known for avoiding experience-based claims (far different from neo-Vedantins!). He held that the apauruseya Veda is the source of wisdom. One might look here at Frank Clooney's _Theology After Vedanta_ (SUNY Press, 1993). And don't the different concepts and context of Zen and "Vedanta" suggest that their "underlying truths" might be different? I hope this is food for thought. Maybe I will momentarily set the hornets buzzing as loudly as Richard Hayes!? Andrew O. Fort, Religion Dept. RQ021RE@TCUAMUS Texas Christian University (817) 921-7440 Fort Worth, TX 76129 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 09:05:25 EDT From: Paul Swanson Subject: Re: BUDDHA-L Digest - 12 Apr 1994 to 13 Apr 1994 ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re. info on Ichinyo no michi. "Ichinyo no michi" (The path to oneness?) is not the name of a new religion but one of the major works by Shinnyo Kyooshu, the founder of a (relatively) new religion called Shinnyoen. It is fairly prosperous and there should be some English language sources on it though I don't have any right here... please contact me directly if you want refer- ences. Also, Jamie Hubbard did a film on Shinnyoen a few years back, and it is available on video. Hey Jamie, are you still peddling underground tapes? Paul Swanson, Nanzan Institute for Religion and Culture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 09:06:45 EDT From: Leigh Charles Goldstein Subject: Re: subtle body / rules of evidence ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This particular thread, in as much as it has degenerated into dialogue about actual experiences and cultivated practices, will attempt to continue on buddhist@jpntuvm0.bitnet which is serviced by listserv@jpntuvm0. Hopefully, none of us have much to say on this topic and the thread will attain nirvana very quickly. Any subtle bodies participating in the discussion, please consult your training manual "Astral Travel of Subtle Bodies in Virtual Space, chapter 873, pg 1276, following a thread migration between distribution lists." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leigh Charles Goldstein goldstel@essex.hsc.colorado.edu voice: 303-478-5292 (USA) CIS 70304,211 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 09:56:15 EDT From: nrs2460.bhc1@pcmail.dcccd.edu Subject: Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta -Reply ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Alan and interested others - I think you'll hav a hard time finding someone more socially committed than Gandhi, a Vedantin, I believe. I think that we could debate the merits of the ethics of Vedanta and Buddhism forever without coming to a conclusion more than "this Buddhist did this; this Vedantin did this; the Buddhist made that statement earlier, etc." I could be wrong, of course. What is true is that reading and studying the Vedas was the provenance of men of a certain caste for centuries. (As is the study of the Koran limited to men today among conservative Muslims.) And since, as Richard points out, the authority of Samkara's Vedanta was Vedic, men (particularly monastic men) were the transmitters of Vedanta. The first movement in which women had much effect was - perhaps encouraged by the more liberal Buddhists - the devotional groups - i.e., the Vaishnavas and Saivites (devotees of Krisna and Siva). It seems to me that there are two ways to judge the truth of any system of thought. One is to look at the system philosophically - that is, devoid of its social/historical cultural effects. By this somewhat phenomenological bracketing off of cultural preference, what is common to any mind thinking logically can be extracted. The other is to trace painstakingly every interaction of philosophy, culture, and history to arrive at a judgment on a movement according to some socially/ethically approved canon. I prefer the first method. There have been too many religious movements which have been closed to women for me to have much material to study if I take the second method. And what good is it for me to say that this or that group was unfair to women? Most of them were, in any historical record we have. As a woman, I feel quite lucky to live in an era in which I can examine all sorts of doctrines according to non-sexually-biased canons of logic and truth. I certainly feel for my historical counterparts, but trying to fight those battles now seems useless to me. It tells us very little about the philosophical correctness of early Buddhism to say that it was - for example - more liberal ethically than some modern Fundamentalisms (Christian or Moslem). On balance, recognizing that both women and men can think logically is a big step ethically, but this alone does not determine the correctness of a system of thought. This is NOT to be taken as a diatribe against Alan. His question just made me start thinking about a sort of trend I've noticed to label religious movements according to what we can imagine to be their effects in cultures so different from ours as to be almost unimaginable. What's the point in saying that certain religious movements in other cultures fell short of things we now take to be basic human rights? Does that tell us anything about the truth of the system? Is it kind? Is it necessary? ;-) Your friend, Nancy Smith nrs2460.BHC1@pcmail.dcccd.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 13:42:43 EDT From: Frederick M Smith Subject: Re: Fonts and Indological standards ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The question was, can fonts configured for Mac System 6 fail under System 7? SouthAsiaTimes, which I use, was written for the System 6 keyboard. Now that I use System 7, I have simply installed the System 6 keyboard as an additional keyboard in the control panel (keyboard icon) and clicked it on. Multiple keyboards are easy to use and do not indicate a failure of the fonts. Fred Smith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 14:22:12 EDT From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Re: Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta -Reply ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I think you'll hav a hard time finding someone more socially >committed than Gandhi, a Vedantin, I believe. Nancy, I haven't posted anything outrageous or provocative in awhile, so I guess I'm due. Gandhi was not a "vedantin", he was a closet Christian trained in British Law, using New Testament rhetoric and the British self-image of "the more civilised" imperialist ("just look at those nasty Dutch and Portugese!") to expose British imperial hypoc- risy (did I spell it right, Richard?). In some of his writings he pro- fesses profound influence from the Bhagavad Gita, in others he admits to never having read more than a few chapters. He took the Brahmacarya notion very literally - and felt extremely guilty about his infrequent wet dreams (somewhere he writes the actual number he has had since be- coming a brahmacarin). Was he being fair to his wife? As for the Vedanta/Zen thing, IF your access to both traditions is only through English language sources you have a legitimate right to be confused and think they sound similar or the same. The (popular) English literature certainly does. But if you study vedantic literat- ure in Sanskrit and Zen literature in Chinese and Japanese, especially anything written prior the late 1800s, you will have a different im- pression. The issue can be complicated, though. One of the implications of the dhaatu-vaada critique by Critical Buddhists is that Dhaatu-vaada is a sort of Vedaanta, with all the ethical pitfalls. And it is well known that Gau.dapaada and "Sa.mkara were heavy borrowers of Buddhist (especially madhyamaka and yogacara) ideas - though for the sole pur- pose (especially in "Sa.mkara's case) of rejecting Buddhism. In any event, let's at least stipulate that those prone to make a positive identification between Zen and Vedanta mean by Vedanta not "Sa'mkara's advaita vedaanta, nor Raamaanuja's vi'si.s.taadvaita vedaanta, nor (certainly) dvaita vedaanta, nor any of the other dozen or so varieties of classical and pre-modern forms of vedaanta. They mean the Vivekananda brand of neo-vedanta - which, as Andrew pointed out, is a very different animal. And similarly, the identification- ists' "Zen" is the variety packaged by D.T. Suzuki (as his English language friends call him - my Japanese friends always correct me, "no, Daisetsu") and those of his ilk. Over twenty years ago I was in a grad seminar on mysticism run by Steve Beyer (a lurker on this list) at UW-Madison. We had a truly diverse group: Joe Wilson represented Tibetan Tantra, we had a Wittgensteinian, two middle-aged Catholic nuns, an anthropologist working on Australian aborigines, someone interested in pre-Han Chinese "taoism," a psychologist interested in Masters and Houston, someone who nearly thought he was the reincarnation of Pseudo-Dionys- ius, and a crew of other motley interests that escape me now (Joe, do you remember the others?). Our first assignment was to come up with a first-hand account of a mystical experience: bring in the text (in the original language), translate it ourselves, and find a standard published English trans- lation of the same passage. We brought those in and compared notes. In the published translations they all did indeed sound the same - in fact they all sounded like they had been written by Pseudo-Dionysius. But when we compared our own more literal, more carefully constructed translations, they all sounded wildly different - each exotically distant from the others. All the neoplatonic buzzwords had disappeared. That's a class I have never forgotton, nor have I forgotton its lesson. N.B.: That was over 10 years BEFORE Katz repudiated Stace. Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 15:53:49 EDT From: L S Cousins Subject: Re: Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta -Reply ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dan Lusthaus writes: > > >I think you'll hav a hard time finding someone more socially > >committed than Gandhi, a Vedantin, I believe. > > Nancy, I haven't posted anything outrageous or provocative in awhile, > so I guess I'm due. Gandhi was not a "vedantin", he was a closet > Christian trained in British Law, using New Testament rhetoric and the > British self-image of "the more civilised" imperialist ("just look at > those nasty Dutch and Portugese!") to expose British imperial hypoc- > risy (did I spell it right, Richard?). In some of his writings he pro- > fesses profound influence from the Bhagavad Gita, in others he admits > to never having read more than a few chapters. He took the Brahmacarya > notion very literally - and felt extremely guilty about his infrequent > wet dreams (somewhere he writes the actual number he has had since be- > coming a brahmacarin). Was he being fair to his wife? I wonder if Gandhi's methods would have worked against the Dutch or the Portuguese. Or does the fact that it worked prove that it was not completely hypocritical? Much as the envious would like to argue otherwise. > Our first assignment was to come up with a first-hand account of a > mystical experience: bring in the text (in the original language), > translate it ourselves, and find a standard published English trans- > lation of the same passage. > > We brought those in and compared notes. In the published translations > they all did indeed sound the same - in fact they all sounded like > they had been written by Pseudo-Dionysius. But when we compared our > own more literal, more carefully constructed translations, they all > sounded wildly different - each exotically distant from the others. > All the neoplatonic buzzwords had disappeared. That's a class I have > never forgotton, nor have I forgotton its lesson. This would only be valid if you tried it on non-mystical literature as well. I suspect you would get the same result for anything other than the most basic descriptions i.e. 'he sat down' and the like. If so, all it does is tell something about the way in which we learn to trans- late. Lance Cousins. -- 35 Burlington Rd, Withington, MANCHESTER, UK, M20 4QA Telephone (UK): 061 434 3646 (International) +44 61 434 3646 Fax (UK): 061 275 3613 (International) +44 61 275 3613 ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 14 Apr 1994 to 15 Apr 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Sat Apr 16 16:10:59 1994 Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 16:05:07 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 15 Apr 1994 to 16 Apr 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 9 messages totalling 244 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Source of Tibetan prayer (3) 2. Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta -Reply 3. Info. about contemporary ecology movement 4. Vedanta and Zen 5. queries 6. Shinnyo-en 7. Schopen on bones; Schweizer on moments ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 17:43:45 EST From: cttart@ucdavis.edu Subject: Source of Tibetan prayer Does anyone know the originator of the widely used Tibetan Buddhist prayer that follows? I only have Sogyal Rinpoche's translation, which doesn't cite an original. By the power and the truth of this practice May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness May all be free of sorrow and the causes of sorrow May all never be seperated from the sacred happiness Which is sorrowless May all live in equanimity Without too much attachment and too much aversion And live believing in the equality Of all that lives. Thanks! _________________________________________________ | | | Charles T. Tart * Communications Coordinates | | e-mail: cttart@ucdavis.edu fax: 510 526-2591 | | voice: 510 526-2591 | | mail: Psychology, UCD, Davis CA 95616 | |_________________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 17:49:54 EST From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Re: Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta -Reply Lance Cousins wrote: >I wonder if Gandhi's methods would have worked against the Dutch or the >Portuguese. Or does the fact that it worked prove that it was not >completely hypocritical? Much as the envious would like to argue >otherwise. It was tactically designed to work against the British, to exploit their imperial vanity. Passive resistance probably would have failed against the Dutch and Portugese. That says both something about the non-universality of Gandhi and his methods as well as about the British need to appear at all times "civilized." I'm not trying to start a third war with Britain -- we here in the colonies enjoy our relative isolation and are presently too busy shooting ourselves in our own streets to take on any outsiders that might have an efficient military. [Responding to my memories of a class many years ago, in which we discovered that all is not One] >This would only be valid if you tried it on non-mystical literature as >well. I suspect you would get the same result for anything other than >the most basic descriptions i.e. 'he sat down' and the like. If so, >all it does is tell something about the way in which we learn to trans- >late. I don't agree. If what made these texts/descriptions all sound the same initially was the preponderance of neo-platonic vocabulary ("the One," "union", "transcendence", etc.), and it is precisely these terms which disappear with careful checking, then the issue does not rest merely on translation habits. The question it does raises is why the preponderance of Neoplatonic verbiage when some translators tackle certain literature? Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 17:51:55 EST From: "Richard Westlake " Subject: Re: Info. about contemporary ecology movement David Baum asked about information on Buddhist echology movements. You could look at "Beyond Optimism" A Buddhist Political Ecology By Ken Jones 1993 Jon Carpenter Publishing PO BOX 129, Oxford, OX1 4PH, U.K. ISBN 1 897766 06 8 Richard Westlake Birkbeck college, London, U.K. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 06:00:47 EST From: LAVOIE MARIO Subject: Re: Source of Tibetan prayer --------------------------- Original Message --------------------------- I don't know for sure about the very first place this prayer was seen, but it is present in the ngondro sadhana of the Kagyu tradition (written, if I remember well, buy the third Karmapa). There might have been earlier versions, though. Hope it could be helpful Mario Lavoie d156745@er.uqam.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 06:02:22 EST From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: Vedanta and Zen Vedanta vs. Zen: I'm not sure this is a relevant remark, because Vedanta is really a tenet system, whereas Zen is both a set of tenets (sort of) and a set of systems of praxis. But as far as praxis is concerned, I feel that they were, are, and will be very very different. That is to say, people who profess Vedanta do a different sort of contemplative practice from people who profess Zen. For one thing, they emphasize concentration and the achievement of trance states more. And when they describe the dynamics of the movement of prana through the channels, which is both a practical and a philosophical consideration, the Vedantins disagree with the Buddhists ina very literal way. Robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 06:03:15 EST From: L S Cousins Subject: Re: Source of Tibetan prayer cttart@ucdavis.edu writes: > Does anyone know the originator of the widely used Tibetan Buddhist > prayer that follows? I only have Sogyal Rinpoche's translation, > which doesn't cite an original. > > By the power and the truth of this practice > May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness > May all be free of sorrow and the causes of sorrow > May all never be seperated from the sacred happiness > Which is sorrowless > May all live in equanimity > Without too much attachment and too much aversion > And live believing in the equality > Of all that lives. It's a version of the four Brahmavihaaras; so the source is the Buddha or perhaps even older. Lance Cousins. -- 35 Burlington Rd, Withington, MANCHESTER, UK, M20 4QA Telephone (UK): 061 434 3646 (International) +44 61 434 3646 Fax (UK): 061 275 3613 (International) +44 61 275 3613 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 14:07:55 EST From: Donald.Lopez@um.cc.umich.edu Subject: queries I would appreciate assistance in identifying the following quotations and references. The first three come from Vimalamitra's commentary on the Heart Sutra. He participated in the translation of the work into Tibetan such that his translations of the following passages may vary from that found in the various Tibetan canons. 1. The first quotation is identified as being by Maitreya: sangs rgyas rnams la lhag par byas/de la dge ba'i rtsa ba bskyed/ dge bshes mgon dang bcas rnams ni/'di nyan pa yi snod du 'gyur// 2. The second quotation is identified as being by Nagarjuna: gang blo yod dang med pa las/rnam par 'das shing mi gnas pa/ de dag zab mo dmigs med pa'i/rgyen gyi don las rnam par bsgom// 3. The third quotation (presumably from a sutra) is unidentified: nyan thos rnams kyi nyon mongs med pa ni bdag mthong na mi rnams kyi nyon mongs pa yong su spong ngo/ rgyal pa rnams kyi nyon mongs pa med pa ni grong la sogs par de dag gi nyon mongs pa rgyun gcod do// 4. What is the Sanskrit title of a text called sa la 'jug pa? 5. The following seem to be titles of (Yogacara?) texts or chapters: a. 'brel ba grub pa chung ngu'i yongs su shes pa b. rnam par nges pa'i yongs su shes pa I apologize for bringing such prosaic matters to the list, but I do not have access to the necessary reference materials at the moment. NB As far as I can determine, none of these passages has anything to do with Vedanta or Zen. DS Lopez donald.lopez@um.cc.umich.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 15:21:35 EST From: B Bocking Subject: Shinnyo-en On Shinnyoen try Shiramizu Hiroko 'Organizational Mediums: A Case Study of Shinnyo-en' in Japanese Jpournal; of Religious Studies, 6/3, 1979 ppca430- Jamie Hubbard's film was broadcast (and is still presumably available from) BBC in the UK - it went out in the 'Everyman' series, perhaps available through BBC Enterprises. Hello Jamie Brian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 15:42:51 EST From: Richard P Hayes Subject: Schopen on bones; Schweizer on moments The March 1994 issue of Journal of Indian Philosophy (Vol 22, No 1) has two articles that may be of interest to Buddhologists. Schopen, Gregory. Ritual rights and bones of contention: more on monastic funerals and relics in the Muulasarvaastivaada-Vinaya. Journal of Indian Philosophy 22:31-80. More reflections on Buddhist funerary rites and beliefs concerning the dead, continuing work that Schopen presented in his 1992 JIP article `On avoiding ghosts and social censure'. Schweizer, Paul. Momentary consciousness and Buddhist epistemology. JIP 22:81-91. Argues that the doctrine of momentariness undermines the inference of causality as presented in the doctrine of pratiitya-samutpaada. Journal of Indian Philosophy is published by Kluwer Academic Publishers. ISSN 0022-1791. Editor: Phyllis Granoff, Religious Studies, McMaster U, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8S 4K1 Asst Editor: Richard Hayes, Religious Studies, McGill U, Montreal, QC Canada H3A 2A7 The JIP has been described as being at the top of the category of journals on Indian philosophy edited at Canadian universities founded by Scottish entrepreneurs in the 19th century. Richard P. Hayes cxev@musica.mcgill.ca Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 15 Apr 1994 to 16 Apr 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Mon Apr 18 16:12:09 1994 Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 16:03:43 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 16 Apr 1994 to 18 Apr 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 6 messages totalling 303 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Mentally produced wind (4) 2. The answer is blowin' in the wind 3. Fonts again ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 17 Apr 1994 16:29:39 EST From: Richard P Hayes Subject: Mentally produced wind In looking at early Buddhist doctrine from the perspective of philosophical psychology (or what is now called philosophy of mind), it seems fairly clear that all Buddhist philosophers (with the possible exception of Vijn~aanavaadins) were mind-body dualists. That is, the Buddhists (like Descartes) argued that the mind is an entirely different sort of thing from the physical body; the mind (more accurately, the four mental aggregates) are all non-material, or non-corpuscular, in nature. The Buddhists would agree to all these following propositions: 1. Whereas bodies can be physically split into parts, the mental aggregates cannot. 2. Whereas the body can be perceived by several minds, the mental aggregates can be directly perceived only by the mental continuum of which they form a part. 3. The mind can survive the death of the body (unless the deceased is an arahant.) As was also the case with Descartes, the Buddhists acknowledged that the mind and body, while of different orders of being, interact with one another extensively. The stimulation of the physical senses gives rise to awareness, which in turn gives rise to other mental events, which can in turn lead to certain desires to act, which can in turn induce states within the physical body. This is good Cartesianism and good Buddhism. In his commentary to the Mahaasatipa.t.thaana-sutta, Buddhaghoso describes a most intriguing process (p. 767). The thought `I am going to go', he says, produces a dispersion of the wind element in the body, and the wind causes physical motion. This is expressed by a compound that reads: cittakiriyavaayodhaatuvipphaarena. The sequence of events is this: a thought arises (cittam uppajjati), then that produces wind (tam vaayam janeti), then the wind produces physical motion (vaayo vi~n~nattim janeti) in the entire body. Understanding this process, says Buddhaghoso, is how one comes to realize that there is no self (atto) and no individual (satto). When we say `I am going', it is just as when we say `the cart is going'. The cart is entirely incapable of automotion. It moves only when it is yoked to some draft animals such as bullocks, who in turn move only when goaded by a driver. The driver, he says, is analagous to the mind; the bullocks to the winds produced by the mind (cittaja-vaataa); and the cart to the body made of insentient matter. (Note that this analogy is very much like the one in the Bhagavad-giitaa, with one noteworthy difference: in the BhG, the chariot that is driven by the mind has a passenger, namely the aatman, for whose sake all this is done; Buddhaghosa's chariot has no passenger except the driver himself.) What particularly intrigues me about this passage is the contention that thought actually produces wind, which is a material element. I know that Dharmakiirti argued that thought could influence the balance of the bodily humours, presumably by producing a certain quantity of one of the humours. If the humours became unbalanced, of course, the imbalance could lead to physical disease. So according to Dharmakiirti, physical disease was the direct result of not having a very good sense of humours. I am not aware of other Indian authors who argued that thought actually produces matter. Can anyone give me any leads on where such an idea might be discussed in greater detail in Indian literature, preferably from before 400 CE? Richard P. Hayes Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Apr 1994 21:31:20 EST From: Dave Gould Subject: Re: Mentally produced wind Wind produced Mentality Hi Richard, I can't cite any reference at all, and so this may be worthless to you, but rather than the mind producing the wind, I understood that it is the movement of a wind in one of the channels of the sublte body that produces a mind. The mind rides upon the wind like a rider upon a horse. It is for this reason that Tantra is said to have its effect. Rather than attempting to change one mental state through mental activity, an approach which may require some time, Tantra changes the wind upon which the mind rides. Naturally it is important to pick a good horse. -Dave Gould -University of Ottawa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 06:12:39 EST From: Leigh Charles Goldstein Subject: Re: Mentally produced wind On Sun, 17 Apr 1994, Richard P Hayes wrote: > What particularly intrigues me about this passage is the contention > that thought actually produces wind, which is a material element. I Is there any possiblity that by wind Buddhasowhat meant something more general than the meteorological phenomenon? In many systems, for example, air might be taken as an element which refers to all gasses or even all qualitites of lightness; either by extension or because it was believed that air was present in these other compounds. Thus wind might here mean general invisible pressures or forces. Secondly, producing a wind is different than creating the substance of wind. So would you read the original as indicating the wind is fabricated from nothing rather than, say, putting gas molecutles into motion. In the latter case, mind would be causing a material substance to move, but would not be creating a material substance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leigh Charles Goldstein goldstel@essex.hsc.colorado.edu voice: 303-478-5292 (USA) CIS 70304,211 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 06:16:38 EST From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Re: Mentally produced wind >I am not aware of other Indian authors who argued that thought >actually produces matter. Can anyone give me any leads on where such >an idea might be discussed in greater detail in Indian literature, >preferably from before 400 CE? Richard, that is the point of the Samkhya notion of prak.rti, which is not "Matter" or an "abstract" nature, but the prismatic developments of the three gu.nas. The subtle and then the gross material elements derive from the downward "evolution" (pari.naama; prav.rtti -- where do you think the Yogacarins got that vocabulary from?) from the gu.nas (which are metaphysical, psychological, physical, cognitive, etc. all at once) through various mental functions (buddhi, ahamkaara, manas, sensory-capacities, sensory-operations. AAkaa'sa develops from sound; wind/air from touch; fire from ruupa (visible shape/color); water from taste; earth from smell. The exact age of this model is uncertain, but certainly by the 3rd c. bce it was in a fairly definitive form (in fact there seem to have been a few mildly different versions floating around at that time). According to A'svagho.sa and others, this model and Samkhyan thought influenced the Buddha, which if there is a glimmer of truth in that idea, would make it much older. But I have some reservations about the propositions you claimed all Buddhists (excepting Yogacarins) would accept. In no mood to give Chuck another opportunity to play peacemaker, so let me just suggest: none of the early Buddhists were cartesians. While they did indeed distinguish rather sharply between ruupa and naama, ruupa was primarily of interest to them insofar as it was sensate (of and for sense-organ/sense-object functioning), and thus when listing the five khandhas, ruupa is frequently replaced, especially in the Paali Abhidhamma literature, with phassa (Skt. spar'sa, 'contact'). Similarly, the 'great elements' (mahaabhuuta) where primarily defined as sensate qualities and only secondarily as "material elements." And so on. Further, the idea that "mind" survives death --- can you cite ANY Buddhist text that would claim that? As we all know, exactly what gets reborn and how was a perennial problem for early Buddhists - and usually when an answer is given, samskaara (embodied karmic conditioning) is named, not vij~naana or any of the other terms for mind. The underlying riddle that Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga explores is how, given the momentariness of citta as well as ruupa, does rebirth occur? Secondary treatments usually obscure that by immediately reciting his citta-viithi (momentary consciousness series) "solution," and ignoring his labored wrestlings to come up with it (or explain WHY that somehow resolved the question for him). But even in that solution, there is no mind (citta) that survives for more than a nano-second (actually 1/17th of a second, if I remember correctly), so that certainly does not survive death, though its karmic/causal continuity jump starts the new series in the new birth (with ruupa trailing in behind by another nano-second or two). Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 07:58:17 EST From: Richard P Hayes Subject: The answer is blowin' in the wind Leigh Goldstein asks whether Buddhaghosa's reference to thought (citta) producing wind (vaayodhaatu, vaata), instead of meaning that thought produces a material element, might mean that thought puts already existing gas molecules into motion. At first, I was tempted to think that Buddhaghoso might be saying something along the lines that Leigh suggested, simply because it seemed so preposterous to me that thought could produce (janeti) the element wind (vaayodhaatu). I then rejected that interpretation, but perhaps too hastily. This interpretation may be salvaged, provided we bear certain important considerations in mind. First of all, the notion of gas molecules is anachronistic, and so is the notion of energy. So it won't do to think of the phrase `producing wind' as meaning `producing energy that puts molecules into motion'. I recall that someone (perhaps Amadeo Sole-Leris in _Tranquillity and Insight_) presented the four primary elements as referring to what we call the three states of matter plus energy. On that account, earth represents all solids, water all liquids, air all gases and fire energy. This way of talking about matter is intuitive to modern people, and there is much to be said for presenting things in this way for the purpose of getting people to meditate on the body as constituted of four elements. (The Buddha says: `Just as a clever butcher, when he has slain an ox, displays the pieces of the carcase, so does a monk reflect upon this body, with respect to its elements.') Actually, the way Buddhaghoso talks about the four elements offers some support to the theory that they refer to three states of matter plus heat. Earth is said to be the hardness and solidity of objects; water is the flowing; and fire is heat, on account of which a person feels warm and because of which food is digested. The element of fire is said to be produced through a combination of four causes: karma, consciousness, the seasons and food. Digestive fire, he says, is produced by a single cause: karma. (This baffles me, but that's what he says.) The element of wind represents the principle of motion. Wind, says Buddhaghoso, is responsible for hiccoughs, vomiting, urination, defecation and flatulence. (If you have problems with flatulence, just stop thinking!) Wind is also pumped through the veins to cause muscular movement. Elsewhere Buddhaghoso describes the elements in functional terms, as follows: Earth provides support, water provides cohesion, wind provides support, and fire produces change. He also says that all four elements are born of four causes: karma, consciousness, food and season. This is clearly not quite the corpuscular view of elemental atoms that we find in the Nyaaya and Vai"se.sika systems and in Sarvaastivaadin abhidharma. Dan Lusthaus points out that Buddhists believed that thoughts were impermanent and therefore could not survive the body. He therefore challenges my contention that all Buddhists would agree with Descartes that the mind (except the mind of an arahant) survives the death of the body. I should have thought it would be obvious here that by `mind' I meant the entire collection (kaaya) of mental aggregates, in other words, the naama of naama-ruupa. And since when we are talking of death of the physical body, we are speaking in conventional terms, it should also be obvious that when we speak of the survival of the mind we are speaking in conventional terms. The point is that no Buddhist in classical times would accept the materialistic view that the continuum of mental processes comes to an end when the physical body dies and decomposes. As an aside, if Buddhaghoso had been a subscriber to BUDDHA-L, he would have realized that thinking often produces flames rather than wind. Sometimes it produces both. Indeed, many people have politely suggested to me that I produce a great deal of wind and fire (hot air) because I think too much. Perhaps there is something to Buddhaghoso's theory after all. I'll have to give it some more thought. (Watch out! Severe tornado warnings in the Montreal area today, caused by thinking professor.) Richard P. Hayes Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 07:59:48 EST From: "O. Rotem" Subject: Re: Fonts again ... Fonts again . . . We have a had a lot requests for the Sanskrit diacritical fonts/keyboards and the Tibetan font/keyboard mentioned before. Jim has made the following suggestion concerning their distribution: > ASCII files can be made available to list members by putting them on our > fileserver, and then announcing to the list that they are available. If > you have such files the procedure is to drop me a note and I will work > with you on making them available. Which is precisely what we shall do when he returns. These files will be sent as messages, as they are in ASCII format. In order to convert them into usable files the messages have to be transported to the MAC they way you regularly transport files between E-mail and Mac. Once on the Mac, you need a little program called BinHex to decode it into Mac format and then it is straight sailing. BinHex is standard and is usually included in Mac compression programmes like Stuff-It. If you find the intricacies of InterNetting to confounding (as we did) we could simply send you a disc in snail-mail. Good luck Ornan Rotem and Rupert Gethin Centre for Buddhist Studies Bristol University, UK ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 16 Apr 1994 to 18 Apr 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Tue Apr 19 16:15:14 1994 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 16:00:54 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 18 Apr 1994 to 19 Apr 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 37 messages totalling 1500 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Mentally produced wind (3) 2. Buddhaghosa on levitation 3. Language and the Buddha (3) 4. The answer is blowin' in the wind (2) 5. Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta -Reply 6. Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta -Repl (3) 7. Source of Tibetan prayer 8. To hell with merit [title added by monitor] 9. Toyo Bunko 10. Buddhism in Russia 11. Earth air fire & water (2) 12. Reincarnation 13. 'Protestant Buddhism' (4) 14. Sokkuram 15. Wind and fire 16. Mind-made matter 17. Shinnyoen 18. Corpusculorum dissolutio 19. Mind and matter 20. samarth 21. Suicide and Arahants (2) 22. On the derivation of the term 'Arahand' 23. May all beings die (2) 24. Too much Gandhi will make you sick ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 19:37:10 EST From: Nobuyoshi Yamabe Subject: Re: Mentally produced wind This is not too detailed, but the Manobhuumi says as follows: "How [manas] causes bodily and verbal actions? [Manas] first develops thought representing bodily and verbal actions, then generates motivation, begins exertion, and causes the wind conforming to the bodily and verbal actions preceded by the exertion, in this way [manas causes bodily and verbal actions]" (katha.m kaaya-vaak-karma pravartayati | kaaya-vaak-karma-sthaaniiya-j~naana-puurva"ngamanatayaa tata"s chanda-jananatayaa tato yatnaarambha.natayaa tato yatna-puurvaka-kaaya-vaak-karmaanukuula-vaayu-pravartanatayaa || Yogaacaarabhuumi, Bhattacharya ed., 14.10-12). But here, vaayu-pravartana wouldn't mean that thought actually produces matter; rather I think manas simply set the inner wind in motion. I guess a similar thing should be discussed in abhidharma texts as well, though I cannot find particular passages by quick search. In any case, wind is commonly associated with movement (AKBh ad AK I.12; Poussin 1:23, n.3, etc.). In both Sarvaastivaada Abhidharma and Yogaacaara, mind physiologically maintains (upa-aa-daa-) body, and thus body and mind are in close interrelationship. For example, physical organs are harmed by desire and benefited by mental concentration (Vini"scayasa.mgraha.nii, Pek Zi 59a8f.) On the other hand, when eye is damaged by kaamala disease, visual cognition changes even though there is no change in the object (Abhidharmasamucchabhaa.sya, Tatia ed., section 12.vi.b). Since bodily change can bring about mental change, and since mental change can occur without the change in objects, this passage will give another reason not to consider early Yogaacaara as idealist. I hope even this much is of some help. I'm very much concerned about this topic. Please keep us informed of what you find out. Nobuyoshi Yamabe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 19:40:15 EST From: John McRae Subject: Buddhaghosa on levitation The following is meant to be relevant to the recent discussion on mind and body in the writings of Buddhaghosa and other Indian figures. If I remember correctly, Buddhaghosa offers an interesting and rather mechanical explanation of how yogins are able to levitate. (It's the only such explanation I've ever found in Indian Buddhist texts, but then I've been counting other treasures.) The way I remember Buddhaghosa's explanation is that one extends one's visualization of the earth element so that it supplies a foundation on which to place one's feet. It also seems likely that he would have used a similar mental extension of the wind element for flying -- but at this point I'll back off and let someone else search the text! I would be interested to have someone provide a better report on Buddhaghosa's ideas, and to hear of other Buddhist texts that explain how levitation and the other supernormal achievements actually work. -- John McRae, Asian Studies Cornell University jrm5@cornell.edu, 607/255-1328 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 19:41:21 EST From: "" Subject: Language and the Buddha Two questions: Are there any English translations or criticisms of texts discussing the Buddhist philosophy of language, or translations of works where the Buddha's philosophy of language discussions are recorded? Also, I have read that some believe that language and conceptual linguistic thought is contrary to the idea of emptiness, and actually brings the speaker farther away from high future rebirth than non-conceptual thought. If this is true, and since the Buddha is recorded as haven spoken, then language is actually incurring negative karma. However, I have also seen some authors who believe that language is the only way to express the thoughts and intentions that lead to higher future rebirth. Furthermore, if language is counterproductive, and the Buddha has still used language to express his teachings, does his speech have certain qualities that prevent the conceptual images of speech from damaging his chances at emptiness? Sorry about the typing - I've got a loose keyboard today. Anisa Bahiyyih Sherwood Colgate University asherwood@colgate.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 19:43:55 EST From: Leigh Charles Goldstein Subject: Re: The answer is blowin' in the wind The intrepratations of wind you suggest are very much what I was thinking of to alleviate the problem of mind directly producing matter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leigh Charles Goldstein goldstel@essex.hsc.colorado.edu voice: 303-478-5292 (USA) CIS 70304,211 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 19:45:21 EST From: Alan Sponberg Subject: Re: Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta -Reply On Fri., April 15th, Nancy Smith wrote: > I think you'll have a hard time finding someone more socially > committed than Gandhi, a Vedantin, I believe. Without wanting to detract from any Gandhi's actual accomplishments, I do feel it is important for us in the West not to lose sight of the fact that Gandhi was a staunch advocate of the caste system, seeing it as the necessary foundation of Hindu society---so much so, in fact, that his efforts on behalf of the Untouchables was always framed in terms of re-integrating them into the caste system, at the very bottom of course. To see him as a social libertarian advocating universal civil rights is, in this respect, purely a Western fantasy (however widely accepted it has come to be). Eleanor Zelliot's excellent essay on "Ambedkar and Gandhi" should be required reading from all Western Gandhi-ites. (Dan Lusthaus has already rightly taken up the question of Gandhi as a representative of Vedanta.) > What's the point in saying that certain religious movements in > other cultures fell short of things we now take to be basic > human rights? Does that tell us anything about the truth of > the system? Is it kind? Is it necessary? ;-) I agree. Hence the point of my original query regarding the _basis_ for ethics in Vedanta, which brings me back to an earlier response: On Wed., April 13th, Michael Cohen wrote: > One can find a philosophical basis for ethics in Sankara's > thought through his delineation of the "three sattas." > Similiar to Buddhism's paramartha/samvrti designation of > reality, the three sattas posit a relative and mental reality > as well as absolute reality. Relative reality is the seat of > ethics, as it is in Buddhism. A basis for ontology and/or epistemology perhaps, but a basis for ethics??? What I am looking for is something more along the lines of the Buddhist 5 precepts, the 10 kusala dhammas, the bodhisattva ideal, the 6 bodhisattva virtues or perfections, etc ---anything other than the Code of Manu, prescribes pouring molten lead into the ears of lower-caste seekers of Vedic knowledge. Surely there is something else in one of the classical Vedanta systems---or not? BTW, I was hoping that this thread would dissociate itself from the "Zen and Vedanta" thread! Hence the different topic header. Regards, Alan Sponberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 19:48:50 EST From: nrs2460.bhc1@pcmail.dcccd.edu Subject: Re: Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta -Repl Friends - I have apparently blundered on the extent of Gandhi's Vedanta. My blundering is nothing new, though it is regrettable, and I hope you will accept my apologies. I have not, however, been able to ascertain his religious beliefs - one person says he was a Vaishnava, one a closet Christian, etc. [I am not a big fan of Gandhi's, because I am not a big fan of anyone who enjoys imposing his/her ethics on someone else. Isn't this is "live and let live" list? No??] I also wish to respond to Dan that I was in no way identifying any sort of Vedanta with any sort of Zen. I find them quite different - except perhaps in their deep experiential structures (i.e., Wilbur's transcendentalism). Hasn't it also been proven that Dionysus wrote the works of Pseudo-Dionysus? ;-) As an aside - I know, all my messages are asides - I have accepted a position as Technology Coordinator for a small private school, and, unless I can quickly hook up the school to an Internet connection, I will probably be floating off into the sunset shortly. Any suggestions about connecting Macs to Internet (at my personal e-mail address) would be greatly appreciated. Your friend, Nancy Smith nrs2460.BHC1@pcmail.dcccd.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 19:51:36 EST From: Robert Kelly Subject: Re: Source of Tibetan prayer The core of the prayer seems to be the text of the Four Immeasurables as cited in the ngon.'gro of Wangchuk Dorje Rinpoche, the Ninth Karmapa--- at least that prayer could be so translated. But perhaps someone will find the exact source needed. [please read ngondro up above, typing trouble.] ek ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 19:53:24 EST From: hal roth Subject: To hell with merit [title added by monitor] Thanks to Paul Swanson and B. Bocking for the info on Shinnyo-en. If Jamie Hubbard has videos of his BBC film for sale, could he please contact me. Buddha-hell merit to you all Hal Roth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 19:53:56 EST From: Dr I C Harris Subject: Toyo Bunko Can anyone explain how, if at all, I might make on-line contact with the Toyo Bunko library catalogue. More general advice on connecting with other Japanese library catalogues would also be welcome. Many thanks Ian Harris Lancaster, England. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 19:56:15 EST From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: Buddhism in Russia >"Lamaists"!? >Could we please attempt to find some term that those who are >practitioners >of Vajrayana Buddhism might find a tad less offensive. I thought that sort >of thing went out with Waddell... I don't really want to pick a fight, but let me just say with sincereity, ...what was I going to say?... oh, yes. I'm a lamaist and proud of it. I don't mind people calling me lamaist. Waddell had an attitude and a lot of things that went out with him should stay out with him. But I can't think why it's nasty to call us Vajrayana practitioners "lamaists." Too many people in the world are sensitive to being called this or that. I think we "lamaists" should let people call us whatever they want within reason. I'm a tantrika, a mantrika, a vajrayanist, a kagyu, a tibetanist, oh... lots of things. Robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 19:57:05 EST From: Noel Perry <3523P@VM1.CC.NPS.NAVY.MIL> Subject: Earth air fire & water While considering the parallels of earth air fire and water with gas, solid, liquid and energy -- I was struck by the notion that an entire dimension is missing. Perhaps there are others, but certainly color, movement, light transmission properties and reflectivity are qualities that enhance physical substances and the 'new age' types talk about auras as well. Don't we need some further parallels? Just sticking in my oar. Hello to new and former correspondents on the list. Noel P.S. Richard, did you get my note? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 20:00:04 EST From: L S Cousins Subject: Re: Reincarnation Andrew_Doust@rbgsyd.GOV.AU writes: >Hello, I'm researching a book on reincarnation in the Tibetan tradit- >ion, especially with regard to tulkus being born as westerners. What I >would like to know is whether there are any references made by the >Buddha to the ability to control one's reincarnation. Also, does any- >one know (or can point me to the appropriate references) as to how and >why the Tibetans got started on this tack. There is a discourse in the Majjhimanikaaya (No. 120) on this subject. See: I.B. Horner, _Middle Length Sayings_, Vol. III p. 139 f. It explains how to control the general type of rebirth, but doesn't seem to envisage a more specific control. There is also (the reference is not to hand) a discourse in which the Buddha explains how a couple can ensure that they are reborn together. Finally the Buddha-to-be is described (in postcanonical accounts) as choosing the place and family in which he will be reborn for his last life. L.S. Cousins. -- 35 Burlington Rd, Withington, MANCHESTER, UK, M20 4QA Telephone (UK): 061 434 3646 (International) +44 61 434 3646 Fax (UK): 061 275 3613 (International) +44 61 275 3613 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 20:01:44 EST From: B Bocking Subject: 'Protestant Buddhism' Protestant Buddhism? The term 'protestant Buddhism' has been applied (by Richard Gombrich and others) to the late 19th century Sri Lankan/Ceylonese revival (if that's the word we want) of Buddhism which was stimulated by interaction with Western colonial modes of thought, themselves predominantly Protestant in matters of religion. The result was such phenomena as the YMBA (instead of the YMCA), emphasis on lay meditation and the search for an 'essence' of Buddhism independent of culture (essential if you want to practice Buddhism in your own way). Other terms used for the same phenomenon in preference to the undoubtedly provocative moniker 'Protestant Buddhism' have been modernism, ultimatism and reformism (Lance Cousins, for example, prefers these terms). These often refer to the varieties of modern and adapted Buddhism which Western Buddhists (culturally protestant, for the most part, if you interpret protestant in the broad sense of adhering to the right of private judgement in matters of religion) have found easiest to accept. To look at just one aspect of contemporary 'protestant Buddhism'; Westerners usually convert consciously to Buddhism, rather than using bits of it unselfconsciously within their culture as and when necessary. Such individual choice (Greek: hairesis, heresy) is characteristic of the 'protestant' thought which informs modern Western culture (to cut a 400-year story short). Philip Mellor wrote an article in _Religion_ a couple of years back relating the notion of 'Protestant Buddhism' to the cultural translation of Buddhism in the English context. I became interested in the idea in relation to Soka Gakkai, which has recently taken an outstandingly 'protestant' attitude to its priesthood by leaving the Nichiren Shooshuu sect en masse and setting up as a religious movement on its own. The particular question here is, do Buddhists need priests (or monks or equivalent sacred specialists) or can lay people correctly lead Buddhism? At last week's excellent conference in Leeds organised by Philip Mellor and Ian Harris on the theme of 'Contemporary Buddhism, Text and Context', the question of the meaning of 'protestant' was raised constructively from a number of standpoints. The basic issue was, if the term is going to be applied to Buddhism, what meaning should it have? I have undertaken to prepare a paper on this issue, which seems to me important and timely. Maybe it's a non-issue for the rest of Buddha-L, or maybe everyone is deep in denial that Buddhism is not what it was. A couple of brief nots: This is (1) not about whether protestantism (or Buddhism come to that) is a good thing; it's about the changed and changing nature of modern (if *that's* the term we want) Buddhism and how best to characterise it. And this is (2) not about despairing whether Buddhism can be described *at all* using English words such as 'protestant' (or 'Buddhism'). This is about better or worse descriptions, not right or wrong ones. So, my question is: "Is the term 'protestant Buddhism' useful, and if so in what contexts?" Brian Bocking All responses welcomed with pleasure. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 20:02:16 EST From: L S Cousins Subject: Re: The answer is blowin' in the wind Richard P Hayes writes: >First of all, the notion of gas molecules is anachronistic, and so >is the notion of energy. So it won't do to think of the phrase >`producing wind' as meaning `producing energy that puts molecules >into motion'. Further to this. In abhidhamma there is no motion, only 'successive arising in adjacent locations'. Clearly then the wind element can only be something like a force which causes the arising of a complex of phenomena (ruupas) in a different position rather than in the same one. Prior to this you have the general notion of wind. Since there is no notion of gases, this has to be the experiencing of motion. Putting it another way, vaayu/vaata is motion, but once you have strict momentariness it has to be the cause of motion. >I recall that someone (perhaps Amadeo Sole-Leris in _Tranquillity >and Insight_) presented the four primary elements as referring to >what we call the three states of matter plus energy. I think there is something like this in the early writings of Caroline Rhys Davids. I wouldn't be surprised if it is older. >On that >account, earth represents all solids, water all liquids, air all >gases and fire energy. This way of talking about matter is intuitive >to modern people, and there is much to be said for presenting things >in this way for the purpose of getting people to meditate on the >body as constituted of four elements. As good a starting point as any. >Actually, the way Buddhaghoso talks about the four elements offers >some support to the theory that they refer to three states of matter >plus heat. Earth is said to be the hardness and solidity of objects; >water is the flowing; and fire is heat, on account of which a person >feels warm and because of which food is digested. The element of >fire is said to be produced through a combination of four causes: >karma, consciousness, the seasons and food. Digestive fire, he says, >is produced by a single cause: karma. (This baffles me, but that's >what he says.) The abhidhamma uses kamma-born to refer to the kind of phenomena that we would now call genetic i.e. built into the structure of the human being from conception. So while most of the matter in, say an arm, originates from nutriment or energy, the controlling matter is kamma- born. We grow human arms, not chimpanzee ones ! >Wind is also pumped >through the veins to cause muscular movement. I don't think it is wind which is pumped. It is wind which does the pumping. >Elsewhere Buddhaghoso describes the elements in functional terms, as >follows: Earth provides support, water provides cohesion, wind >provides support, and fire produces change. He also says that all >four elements are born of four causes: karma, consciousness, food >and season. This is clearly not quite the corpuscular view of >elemental atoms that we find in the Nyaaya and Vai"se.sika systems >and in Sarvaastivaadin abhidharma. The notion that some materiality is mind-born is present in the earliest abhidhamma works e.g. Vibh; Dhs. The theory is developed in more detail in the Pa.t.thaana. Dan's citing of Saa.mkhya is probably relevant here, since the Canonical abhidhamma works may well be a parallel development to that and early Vaisheshika. I would envisage the same kind of interplay and debate between them and abhidhamma as you get later on with the Nyaaya and the Buddhist Logicians. There is a problem with the whole concept of materiality, however. Most ordinary use of this is distinctly eighteenth century science which has become internalized in ordinary experience. People think of it as common sense. If I understand modern physics correctly, we hardly ever experience matter. What we experience is almost always the forces generated by matter. Lance Cousins. -- 35 Burlington Rd, Withington, MANCHESTER, UK, M20 4QA Telephone (UK): 061 434 3646 (International) +44 61 434 3646 Fax (UK): 061 275 3613 (International) +44 61 275 3613 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:14:58 EST From: Emilie Tien Hsu Subject: Re: Language and the Buddha There is a text that you may be interested in: Cessation and Contemplation in the Five Teachings of the Hua-yen. It has some interesting thoughts on language and the problem of reference. Parts of it read like Wittgenstein. You can find the text in "Entry to the Inconceivable" translated and edited by Thomas Cleary, published by University of Hawaii Press. Emilie Hsu Columbia University. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:19:52 EST From: Jan Nattier Subject: Re: 'Protestant Buddhism' In response to Brian Bocking's intriguing post concerning the applicability of the term "Protestant" to certain forms of Buddhism: If this is "a non-issue for the rest of Buddha-L," then this network is in sad shape indeed! Let's hope many of our number will take up this quetion. It is a vital topic, it seems to me, for understanding much of what is going on in Buddhism in the late 20th century, and not only in Sri Lanka. To begin at the beginning, it seems to me important to take note of the fact that the original source [aha! itself a Protestant obsession] for the term "Protestant Buddhism" is not that of a Westerner/outsider, but of an Asian scholar of Buddhism, viz. Gananath Obeyesekere. (The article where the term was first coined is "Religious Symbolism and Political Change in Ceylon," in _Modern Ceylon Studies_, 1, no. 1 [1970], but much more easily available as reprinted in Bardwell Smith, ed., _Two Wheels of Dhamma_ [AAR monograph no. 3, 1972].) The term has since been picked up by a number of others, including Richard Gombrich, who has done some very interesting collaborative work with Obeysekere. (See for example the chapter "Protestant Buddhism" in their jointly authored _Buddhism Transformed: Religious Change in Sri Lanka_.) It also seems important to distinguish clearly between Buddhisms with long local traditions (e.g., in Sri Lanka and Japan) "re-forming" themselves -- no value judgement implied here -- in the image of the predominantly Protestant religion of their colonial or wartime conquerors, and the reformulated and selective Buddhisms of recent Western converts, whose content is likewise shaped by both conscious and unconscious mainly Protestant preferences. These are clearly related phenomena, but they are certainly distinct at least at the outset, and it would probably make sense not to lump them together prematurely. The value of the term "Protestant Buddhism," it seems to me, is that it conveys not only a religious "type" (for which other terms, such as those suggested by Lance Cousins, might well be preferable), but a historically observable cause-and-effect relationship: what Obeyesekere calls "Protestant Buddhism" developed in a context in which Protestant ideas of what a "good" religion should look like held hegemonic sway. One of the touchy aspects of this debate is that many of those who espouse varieties of Buddhism that Obeyesekere would call "Protestant" have themselves been fervent patriots (if not outright nationalists), opposed to foreign domination and eager to show that their own culture has produced a religion capable of measuring up to the colonialist's standards. (I think the irony is evident here.) Among Western converts to various stripped-down, rationalized, and lay-oriented forms of Buddhism are likewise many who are uncomfortable with the idea that such modern forms of Buddhism are heavily indebted to the values of Protestantism (a religion many of them have voluntarily abandoned), and moreover would be unrecognizable to Shakyamuni. (a strong way to put it perhaps, but we may as well get the debate going!) Thus some of the strongest defenders of what can be called "Protestant" forms of Buddhism, in both of these camps, are the most reluctant to see the Protestant content or better, framework) of their position. Hence, I suspect, some of the objections to the term. At any rate, the whole phenomenon of worldwide "Protestan- tization" of other religions is a fascinating one, and well worth careful comparative study. (This is certainly not limited to the Buddhist sphere; witness the contemporary "monotheicization" of devotional Hinduism, for example.) We will probably get the most useful insights here if we open the lens wide enough to include not just Buddhism in various countries, but other religions as well. Thanks to Brian Bocking for bringing up this timely topic, and for passing on some good leads to pursuing it. -- Jan Nattier P.S. By the way, on the Japan front it's worth pointing out that the Sooka Gakkai did not voluntarily secede from its Nichiren Shooshuu parent sect; they were expelled by the priesthood. This makes them "involuntary Protestants" in one sense, though they were certainly moving toward some Protestant stances (e.g., less dependence on the priesthood) before this took place. Of course, one way to respond to such an expulsion is via the "sour grapes" mode: "you can't kick us out! you're corrupt and illegitimate anyway!" Much of the contemporary "debate" between the Sooka Gakkai and the Nichiren Shooshuu priesthood seems to be of this variety. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:20:45 EST From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Re: Earth air fire & water >an entire >dimension is missing. Perhaps there are others, but certainly color, >movement, light transmission properties and reflectivity are qualities >that enhance physical substances and the 'new age' types talk about >auras as well. Fire => color (ruupa), light properties water => reflectivity wind/air => movement. Nothing new under the sun. Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:21:13 EST From: "Jason J. Park" Subject: Sokkuram I was wondering if anyone could supply me with any information regarding the Sokkuram grotto in Kyongju, South Korea. Any information on when it was created, if it is the original or if it's a restored version, and comments on what it comes to represents would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Jason J. Park ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:22:11 EST From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Re: Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta -Repl >I also wish to respond to Dan that I was in no way identifying >any sort of Vedanta with any sort of Zen. I find them quite >different - except perhaps in their deep experiential structures >(i.e., Wilbur's transcendentalism). Hasn't it also been proven >that Dionysus wrote the works of Pseudo-Dionysus? ;-) I didn't mean to imply that you were making that identification. I was using my post responding to you to also include some comments about the rest of that discussion. Sorry for the confusion. I have loads of reservations about Wilbur's theories, but we'll leave that for another kalpa. As for Pseudo-Dionysus, as far as I know it has been definitely established that Dionysus did NOT write those works, which is why they are still called PSEUDO-[as in pseudepigraphic-]Dionysus. Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:26:03 EST From: Bob Simmonds Subject: Re: 'Protestant Buddhism' Brian...taking your definition of "Protestant", which seems reasonable to me, isn't it true that Zen is truly Protestant Buddhism? Bob Simmonds 190 East Beach Rd. Nordland, WA 98358 206-385-2110 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:27:27 EST From: Johannes.Bronkhorst@orient.unil.ch Subject: Wind and fire Perhaps the following verse from the Paa.niniiya "Sik.saa can throw some additional light on the production of wind: AAtmaa buddhyaa samarthyaarthaan mano yu"nkte vivak.sayaa/ mana.h kaayaagnim aahanti sa prerayati maarutam// Manmohan Ghosh (Paa.niniiya "Sik.saa, repr. Delhi - Madras: Asian Humanities Press, 1986, p. 54) translates: "AAtmaa with buddhi perceives things and sets the mind to an intention of speaking; the mind (then) gives impetus to the fire within the body, and the latter drives the breath out." What is at stake here is, of course, the production of speech. Johannes Bronkhorst ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 08:40:48 EST From: Richard P Hayes Subject: Mind-made matter Thanks to all of you who have supplied references to classical Indian texts in which mention is made of matter being produced (or at least influenced) by thought or other movements of the mind. I shall look into them more fully. Like John McRae, I first thought of Buddhashosa's exposition of the various kasina devices, where he mentions the benefits of meditating on these devices made of earth and other elemental substances. In Visuddhimagga (p. 175-76 of PTS edition, pp. 201ff of Pe Maung Tin's translation), Buddhaghosa says (I paraphrase): By concentrating on the earth device, one can walk on earth created in space or water. (As John says, this is the explanation for how yogins can levitate and walk on water.) By concentrating on the water device, a yogin can dive in and out of solid ground, produce rain, create rivers and oceans, and cause earthquakes. By concentrating on fire a yogin can produce smoke and showers of burning embers, produce light, destroy another yogin's powers and cause his own body to be spontaneously incinerated at the moment of death. By concentrating on the wind device a yogin can travel at the speed of the wind and cause storms. Concentration on various other devices enables the yogin to do such things as produce gold, dispell darkness, see objects invisible to others, walk through walls or mountains and penetrate to the centre of the earth. All the powers mentioned by Buddhaghosa are part of a stock set that are mentioned repeatedly in the Pali canon, as well as in the Yoga-suutras (which themselves were written much later but which may reflect very early autochthonous thaumaturgical beliefs and practices). It was this observation, among others, that led a number of earlier scholars (e.g. Senart, Barth, Oltramare, Das Gupta, Eliade, La Vallee Poussin) to remark on strong yogic influences in Buddhism. An article still well worth reading (if you can find it) is Louis de La Vallee Poussin, `Le bouddhisme et le yoga de Pata~njali' _Melanges chinois et bouddhiques_ Vol 5 (1937), pp. 222-242. Thaumatology is but one of the many elements that were obviously of much importance to early Buddhists but which have become of much less interest to modern scholars and to `Protestant' Buddhists. Jan Nattier has already mentioned that some aspects of modernist dharma would have been unrecognizable to the Buddha. I suspect that one thing that he would find most surprising is the lack of interest in such useful enterprises as walking on water, flying through the air at the speed of wind, healing severe wounds by merely looking at them with the divine eye, appearing in several places at once, and directly knowing the thoughts of others. One wonders what the classical Buddha would think of the modern image of himself as an pretty nice guy, albeit with disquieting hints of misogynism and a most disturbing tendency to see himself as a sagacious Tathaagata and authoritative rule-maker instead of an egalitarian facilitator helping people find ways to help themselves. The Buddha of the Pali Canon (never mind the sensationalistic Stephen Spielberg Buddha of Mahaayaana literature) seems to have been much more than a Protestant exemplar of virtue and good common sense, a sort of bald Thomas Jefferson dressed in dyed old rags. [The Unitarian in me may love the Jeffersonian Gautama, but the textual historian in me tells me it wasn't so.] Richard P. Hayes Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 08:42:14 EST From: Ian Reader Subject: Shinnyoen Shinnyoen was founded in 1936 by Shinjoo Itoo (who died a year or two back, leaving one of his daughters in charge of the religion. Shinjoo had close connections to the Shingon sect (Daigoji) and Shinnyoen incorporates a number of Shignon rituals (inc goma) into its religious practices. It has been one of the fastest growing of the new religions in the 1980s (acc. to some estimates growing almost tenfold in a decade, to approx. 2 million plus members). It also has (or had) good political connections - ex-Prime Minister Kaifu was one of the mourners at Shinjoo's funeral. Not much as yet in English apart from a few publications they have put out. In Japanese sections of various books on new religions (eg Numata Kenya Gendai Nihon no shin shuukyoo) give general overviews of the religion. It has made small-scale excursions overseas, notably Hawaii where it has a large temple, and is now starting to build a base in Europe (London and Paris). I have a PhD student Jay Sakashita currently working on Shinnyoen's tactics of development outside Japan. ian reader university of stirling ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 09:28:48 EST From: PNIETUPSKI@jcvaxa.jcu.edu Subject: Re: Mentally produced wind Thanks to Richard Hayes for bringing up the interesting topic of bodies & minds, and to Yamabe's detailed response, to D. Lusthaus' observations on the interdependence of body & mind in Samkhya, and to D. Gould's mention of this theme in tantra, etc. I remember extended discussions of mentally produced mandalas and deity bodies in many Tibetan commentaries on Indian writings. These are taken as real objects in their view. The human mind, so they say, actually constructs the mandala building and the deity body! Otherwise, R. Hayes seems well aware of Buddhist "idealism," where the mental construction of external objects is asserted. I wonder about the Vijnanavadin ideas of mental construction of things like bodies and external objects in relation to the recent discussions of Dharmakirti's theories of perception and conception of internal and external objects, or, the debate between "Mind Only" theorists and Buddhist logicians. For example, I and other lurkers have seen statements of the "non-existence" of external objects, and that humans `think that they are seeing an external object, but are actually applying a mentally produced category onto a bit of perceptual data.' (I paraphrase.) Can these ideas be considered in response to Richard's inquiry into mentally produced bodies and things? Also, I note that the Madhyamaka philosophers considered these issues as well, and that there are analyses of Vijnanavada & Madhyamaka theories in the much later works of Tsongkhapa, 'Jam dbyangs bshad pa, etc. These writers address Richard's topics in great detail, though in a much later time and place. Still otherwise, another interesting source for Richard's question is the early Indian medical literature, where the human body's physical "humors" are referred to with the same terms as the "mental" klesas. Good references to the Indian texts, and excellent analysis are in K. Zysk's _Asceticism and Healing in Ancient India: Medicine in the Buddhist Monastery_ [He may not mention that the humors have the same labels as the klesas in this book, but he is well aware of the mutual application, or the equation of the terminology.] The terms for the humors are explicitly equated with the klesas in Aris et al (eds.), _Tibetan Medical Paintings_. (Sorry, post 400 CE) This is an extremely interesting and provocative subject, thanks for bringing it up. Further otherwise, Richard recently posted a message with a citation of G. Schopen's recent article on "Bones" [JIP 22: 31-80, 1994]. I share GS's interest in monastic writings, and refer those interested to his other articles on the subject: "On Avoiding Ghosts ..." [JIP 20:1-39, 1992]; "The Ritual Obligations & Donor Roles ..." [JPali Txt Soc., XVI, 1992, 87-107]; "An Old Inscription from Amaravati ..." [JIABS 14.2, 1991]; etc., and his forthcoming articles in JAOS 114.4, 1994 & JIABS. Finally, a question -- how do you all find the time to write all of this stuff on Buddha-L while maintaining teaching & research responsibilities? Sincerely, Paul Nietupski John Carroll University pnietupski@jcvaxa.jcu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 10:36:36 EST From: Richard P Hayes Subject: Corpusculorum dissolutio The question of how and whether thought produces or influences matter seems to have been resolved by Dharmakiirti by dispensing with matter altogether. His argument in the Santaanaantara-siddhi (Establishing the existence of consciousness continua other than one's own) is complex, but it can be paraphrased in simplified form as follows: According to traditional accounts, a thought in one mental continuum produces an action in the physical body in which that continuum dwells. This physical action serves as a signal or communication (vij~napti), which stimulates the sense-faculties of another physical body, which then conveys information to the mental continuum dwelling in it by which the second continuum infers the existence of the first. This traditional account is much too complex, and it breaks down under close examination. It would be more elegant to say simply that one continuum directly plants a signal (vij~napti) into a second continuum, without either mental continuum using a physical body as a medium. Dharmakiirti's willingness to do away with physical bodies was no doubt influenced by Vasubandhu's (and later Dignaaga's) critique of the Nyaaya and Vaibhaa.sika theories of matter as corpuscular in nature. Once it was shown that the material world could not possibly be made up of corpuscular atoms, in the absence of any convincing alternative account, the most rational conclusion seemed to be that there is not really any material world at all. That there seems to be a material world is merely the function of a persistent delusion. Later scholastics followed Dharmakiirti's lead. Kamala"siila, for example, argued that there cannot possibly be corpuscular matter, nor can there possibly be time or space. His strategy is to use Yogacaara arguments to show that the events that we perceive as taking place in the external world cannot possibly be taking place there, because the external world cannot possibly be constructed in the ways that present themselves most readily to our minds as plausible accounts of our experiences. He then uses Maadhyamika arguments to show that there also cannot possibily be any mental events either! If the final analysis, for Kamala"siila, nothing is taking place anywhere, either physically or mentally. (This comes up in the first Bhaavanaa-krama, sections 10 and 11 of Tucci's edition.) Actually, I find both Dharmakiirti's and Kamala"siila's arguments completely convincing. The only minor question that remains is this: If there isn't any material world, how come I've gained so damn much weight in the past five years? Is it because I have been imagining eating too much food and haven't been imagining doing enough exercise because I keep imagining I'm doing too much work? Richard P. Hayes Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:31:18 EST From: Pat Williams Subject: Re: Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta -Repl Dan Lusthaus: You said that you have loads of reservations about Ken Wilber's (note the correct spelling of the name) theories. I'd be very interested to see some discussion of this issue. I think I have a good understanding of what Wilber says, but I still have a lot to learn about the traditions which he claims all share the same basic underlying message. Many find it a very attractive message, and there have been some eloquent defenses of his position (e.g., by Huston Smith and Frithjof Schuon). The implications of his views are vast, making the issues he raises important ones to explore. Would you or others be interested in explaining the weaknesses in this approach? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:32:03 EST From: Joe Wilson Subject: Re: Mentally produced wind Dan Lusthaus writes the following. > Further, the idea that "mind" survives death --- can you cite ANY Buddhist > text that would claim that? If survives means that its continuum endures, then that is what Asanga says in the Vini'scayasamgrahanii (as does the author of the Abhidharmasamuccayabhaa.sya) about the aalayavijnaana. See Griffiths' _On Being Mindless_, especially pp. 130 ff. And in terms of 'mind,' of course there are a number of texts that equate citta and aalaya. Have I missed the point here? Joe Wilson University of North Carolina - Wilmington ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:33:15 EST From: John Dunne Subject: Re: Language and the Buddha Anisa Sherwood asks some provocative questions about language and the Buddha. Fortunately, this gives me the opportunity to toot my own horn. I am nearly finished with and article titled "Thoughtless Buddha, Passionate Buddha" in which I deal with the quandary that Anisa raises. Others also noticed the problem. The 7th cent. Miimaa.msaka (non-Buddhist) philosopher Kumaarila remarked: (The Buddha) is devoid of (certain mental states) such as desire, and he has no (conceptual) activity; if that is the case, then someone else has given the teachings that are attributed to him, (for) he is devoid of determinate conception. ("slokavaartika, coadanaasuutra, v. 137; additions from commentary of Paarthasaarathimi"sra and Sucaritami"sra). The problem is twofold; if the Buddha spoke, he used concepts, but most Mahaayaana Buddhists associate concepts with ignorance. In addition, if the Buddha taught anything, he must have had a desire to do so. But desire is also considered a naughty thing. In my article, I explore how Dharmakiirti and Candrakiirti respond to the type of objection that Kumaarila raised. Dharmakiirti's work on language might be of particular interest to you, but Candrakiirti's attempts to avoid the problem touch on some wider issues. If you wish, I would be happy to send my manuscript to you. After all, scrap paper is always useful. Savikalpakena John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:35:01 EST From: John Dunne Subject: Mind and matter Although Richard requests data prior to 400, it is probably worth noting that the distinction between mind and matter is collapsed in Indian Buddhist tantra. One well known source is the (tantric) Naagaarjuna's *Pa~ncakrama* (available only in Tibetan, I believe), although many tantric sources express such a view. The upshot is that `wind' becomes the stuff of mind; that is, a mind can never be present without wind and is in fact inseparable from `wind.' However, without being facetious, one might well ask whether wind is matter, even though it is clearly a constituent of the universe according to Buddhist cosmology. Whether or not we identify wind as matter, such texts do indicate that mind is composed of wind. In as much as wind is also a constituent of non-mental things, we must conclude that mind shares at least one attribute with `matter.' Such a view flows rather readily from the explanations proffered by Buddhaghosa and the author(s) of the Yogaacaarabhumi, who cite wind as the connection between mind and matter. Later authors apparently expand this connection to the point where wind becomes an attribute shared by mind and matter. The reasons for such a development are unclear to me. One motivation might have been the desire to avoid an infinite regress (anavasthaa) in explanations of mental manipulation of matter; if wind connects mind to matter, what connects wind to mind? The appropriation and subsequent elaboration of such notions within Tibetan Buddhism suggests rather strongly that a dualism of mind and matter would be misleading in the Tibetan context. As I recall, some theories of the Sa-skya school are particularly non-dualist in this regard, but Tsong Khapa's *Sngag rim chen mo* also does not lend itself to a "cartesian" interpretation. Perhpas my kind readers are clamoring for references? Well, I haven't read this material in years, so only the *most* desperate plea will receive anything but the *Pancakrama*'s location in the canon. Sorry! John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:35:45 EST From: John Dunne Subject: samarth J. Bronkhorst cites a verse from Paa.niniiya "Sik.saa in which the verb *samarth* appears. He (or perhaps his source?) proffers the translation ``perceives.'' I had thought that a more typical translation might be ``considers'' or ``thinks of'' or ``conceives of'' (in the cognitive sense). Is the translation ``perceives'' based on a commentarial gloss? Sorry to nitpick, but *samarth* has some relevance to my work. Thanks, John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:38:29 EST From: Damien Keown Subject: Re: Suicide and Arahants Dan Lusthaus writes: >Let me play Mara's advocate, and harass poor Damien Keown ... I'm embarrassed to see news of my dire poverty has leaked out. I began to suspect the Internet was tied in to to my bank's computer when I noticed those curious transfers to Hayes Conglomerates which started soon after I subscribed to this list. Well, now that the sad truth about my finances is out in the open I selflessly offer to be an object of daana for all beings and look forward to the receipt of generous donations. (Cash only, no wives or children, please) Dan suggests: >Isn't taking a middle way between verbal truth and falsehood >precisely what upaaya is? Saying something that actually is not >so, because it elicits a response that is beneficial? That's why >for years I've been translating upaaya as 'beneficent deception' >rather than 'expedient means.' Dan is quite right that the question of upaaya must be addressed in this context. I would say there are actually two questions here. First, what is upaaya? And second, what implications (if any) does upaaya have for Buddhist ethics? I think the original sense of upaaya is fairly specific, although its interpretation does change with the passage of time. Certain Mahayana texts seem to want to use upaaya as a sort of moral wild card that can trump any precept. Even then, however, its use is reserved to advanced bodhisattvas, and it certainly isn't intended for the putthujana in the street. Most texts, however, take a more conservative stance. There's a discussion of all this in a recent book which modesty prevents me from mentioning... Going back to basics, however, at the heart of the concept of upaaya seems to be the Buddha's skill as a religious teacher. He teaches the Dharma 'in many a way and in many a figure' using parables, images, and metaphors. The particular method chosen depends on the level of the audience. Some get the point right away, while others are, shall we say, one short of a six-pack and need to have a picture drawn before the point gets across. This doesn't involve deception, or saying anything that isn't true. It's like using parables, and is really nothing more than the skill any teacher exercises in getting their exasperating students to see the point. Since the object of the teachings is always truth, I'm not sure how appropriate the word 'deception' is in this context. The second question concerns the relevance of upaaya for Buddhist ethics. I can't think of anything in early Buddhism to support the notion that upaaya should be generalised to become a normative ethical principle. The connection just isn't made. What *is* made plain, instead, is that one should always speak the truth. Of course, the time and the manner in which you speak it requires judgement and discretion. The intention behind the fourth precept, however, seems *not* to be that a person should lie when they feel its appropriate, or even tell white lies. Instead, the precept seems to imply that it's always wrong to state something you know to be untrue with the intention to deceive. If someone thought that upaaya *did* apply to the fourth precept, then they'd have to be consistent and apply it to the other precepts as well. In the case of the First Precept it would mean you can kill someone if it 'elicits a response that is beneficial' (for who?). I'm sure we can all think of many suitable candidates for beneficial disposal, but somehow I don't think the Buddha would approve. Regarding the second precept, stealing would be beneficial for my depleted bank account, so maybe upaaya isn't such a bad idea after all. And hey, what fun we could have with the third precept! (Hasn't there been a lot of that sort of 'upaaya' in some Buddhist centres in the USA?) On my suggestion that it would be wrong to be 50% compassionate, Dan writes: >Since compassion is a form of desire, albeit sublimated, to be >100% compassionate would not demonstrate any detachment >whatsoever from desire. That's why compassion should be balanced >with praj~naa. To say that one thing should be balanced with another doesn't mean that either of the two things has to be at half-strength. The aim is to have 100% compassion plus 100% praj~naa. In addition, I don't agree that compassion is a form of desire: in fact it's just the opposite. Nor do I see the function of praj~naa as redeeming compassion. Compassion is good in itself, with or without praj~naa. And where does Buddhism say there must be complete detachment from desire? (Before anyone reaches for their launch codes, let me add that all desire needn't be ta.nhaa ...) On my claim that Buddhism says there is an absolute duty to respect life, Dan writes: >The exceptions you fail to mention have to do with Buddha's >rejection of the Jain notion of ahi.msa, which Buddhism does >indeed label extremist. Remember, neither Buddha nor the earliest >Buddhists were vegetarians. Even with ahi.msa there is, according >to the Pali Buddha, a middle way. Where the Buddha differed from the Jains was not in denying the principle of ahi.msaa but in insisting on the importance of intention in moral action. In other words, it was still wrong to kill but only when you did it intentionally, not accidentally. Apart from that, ahi.msaa remains a principle which must always be respected. I'm not quite sure what 'exceptions' are meant here. There is some evidence that early Buddhism tried to *emulate* the Jains rather than distance itself from them. Examples would include the use of water-strainers by monks to avoid killing the tiny organisms in water (Vin.iv.125), and prohibition on travel in the rainy season to avoid damage to tiny creatures (Vin.i.137). There is a prohibition on digging the ground to avoid killing bugs, and there are even suggestions that damage to seeds and plants should be avoided (Vin.i.137; D.i.5). These rules suggest a scrupulous respect for life similar to that in Jainism rather than different from it. How are they to be explained by reference to the middle way? Although these examples tend to support my view, I find them puzzling nonethess. I would agree they are not really 'Buddhist' in spirit, but there they are in the canon nonetheless. My general theory is that Buddhism does not extend respect for life to plant life, so they are a problem for me too. I think there is an explanation for them consistent with my position, but I won't go into that just now. It will all be discussed in a forthcoming book which modesty etc etc ... I accept that early Buddhists were not vegetarian, but that isn't a counterexample to my suggestion. What the monks were doing was eating something that was already dead, not killing it themselves. There was an attempt to distance them from the death of the animal through the requirement that they should have no reason to believe it was killed on their account. This may still be thought to compromise them in some indirect way, but it can't be classed as a breach of the first precept. In general, I think that when the Buddha promulgated the precepts and told people never to break them, he meant exactly what he said, without any ifs, buts, footnotes, or subtext. These things are so basic he would have been certain to make them crystal clear. He certainly wouldn't want people to go blundering around in the dark creating bad karma for themselves. He had 45 years to get the point across; that's like having Bill Clinton in office for nine consecutive terms. The Buddha taught with an 'open hand'; if he meant that the precepts should be interpreted in the light of upaaya or anything else, why didn't he just come out and say so? So far no one has come up with any evidence that the precepts are not meant to be taken as anything other than moral absolutes (there, the dreaded phrase is out at last). The only piece of textual evidence offered was the suicide of Cha.n.na, which was somewhat less than compelling. The notion that the precepts are merely prima facie obligations to be overruled when necessary (ie when anyone feels like it) by reference to: a) upaaya, b) the middle way, c) compassion, d) anything else, is, I'm afraid, based on little more than second-guessing and wishful thinking. PS. Don't forget the donations ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:39:34 EST From: Damien Keown Subject: Re: Suicide and Arahants F.K.Lehman suggests I am guilty of a an 'all-too-common misapprehension' in saying that Buddhism holds there is an absolute duty to respect life. First of all, I'm relieved to hear it's a *common* misapprehension, because I was beginning to feel it might be rather uncommon. Second, I can understand the the general line of reasoning behind the objections stated, for example, in relation to the seamier side of the cakkavatti-business. However, I do not think the points made really show a conflict in my position. F.K.Lehman writes: >Consider the issue of killing or similar violence undertaken, >say, by a *dhammaraaja* in carrying out his duties, to amongst >other things, protect *saasana* and ensure the conditions of >society and the political order in which religion may flourish. I don't see that killing is a duty intrinsic to the office of a dhammaraaja. A dhammaraaja, surely, has no wish to kill anyone. His intention is that everyone should live in peace and harmony. Asoka substituted his policy of conquest by force for one of conquest by dhamma (dhammavijaya). He even abolished the death penalty. Many societies today have abolished capital punishment without freedom of religion having been compromised. The sorts of circumstances which might pose a threat to the saasana and its flourishing would be of the kind we now see in Tibet. A dhammaraaja *might* then see it as his duty to resist the enemy by force. This is a debatable point, and apparently not the view of the Dalai Lama. I'm not suggesting that the Dalai Lama is constitutionally a dhammaraaja, only that his commitment to a non-violent solution gives us cause to pause and reflect on the sort of conclusion a dhammaraaja might come to in similar circumstances. However, let's assume that the dhammaraaja feels it his duty to resist the invader. The situation now is analogous to that of self-defence. If someone threatens the life of another, the principle of respect for life does not require that the person threatened simply do nothing. His or her own life is entitled to the same respect as the life of the assailant. It is therefore perfectly proper to protect one's life by employing the minimal level of force necessary to resist the attack. Let's remember that the moral status of an action in Buddhism is determined to a large extent by what you *intend*. In self-defence, the intention is not to destroy the life of the assailant, but to neutralise the attack. It may come about in certain extreme situations that there is no way to do this except by using lethal force, but this outcome is not sought as an end in itself. The principle of respect for life requires only that we do not deliberately set out as an aggressor to destroy life. So long as the dhammaraaja is not the aggressor, then, he is perfectly entitled to defend the security of his realm and the lives of his subjects against attack. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:43:00 EST From: Damien Keown Subject: On the derivation of the term 'Arahand' Scholars have puzzled over the derivation of the term 'Arahand' which appeared in sources towards the end of the second millenium. The term is clearly a variant of the Pali 'Arahant', but no satisfactory explanation has been offered so far to account for the change in the final consonant. It is almost a cliche now that this period was something of a 'dark age' as far Buddhist scholarship (and almost everything else) was concerned. It is said that the lamp of the Dhamma sputtered and almost went out altogether. The light shed in certain discussion forums has been likened to the visibility of black cats in coal-cellars at midnight. False doctrines abounded, and some heretics even maintained there were no absolute moral values. These dissidents were, of course, eventually purged in the new Cakkavatti era which inaugurated the third millenium. Many were forced to work for a living (often for the first time in their lives) and wear white garments (such as white training shoes) as a mark of the low esteem in which such persons were held by society at large. Many could be seen littering university campuses. To return to our theme, however, three theories have been proposed to account for the term 'Arahand'. The first explains it as the result of textual corruption. At this time a crude method of transcription using a 'keyboard' was in popular use. Whatever this was, it was certainly a clumsy device, as can be seen from the many hilarious and grotesque errors resulting from its use. This 'scribal error' theory, it must be said, has not found wide support, and is dismissed by many as an intellectual cop-out. The second theory denies that the term 'Arahand' was an aberration and suggests it was, in fact, in widespread use at the time. This fact cannot be conclusively established because many electronic texts were deemed heretical and destroyed in the great bonfire of electronic heresies in the year 2001. A fragment of a surviving text contains the phrase 'If you want to search the database for Arahants (or Arahands, whatever they are) ...' This tantalising fragment has been attributed to a contemporary Mahaa-yanta-thera, that is to say, the elder entrusted with the care of the electronic palm-leaves on which discussions were recorded. What does this fragment tell us? At first sight it seems to indicate complete ignorance of the term 'Arahand'. However, in terms of the theory, it would have been inconceivable for a senior elder holding such an office to be ignorant of this word. The explanation, then, must be that the elder was simply feigning ignorance of the term in order to disparage and discredit it. This points to a dispute of some kind between rival schools, the substance of which has been irretrievably lost. This theory has some merit, but is of a rather speculative nature. The most promising suggestion comes, as so often in the past, from the intellectually vibrant world of comparative philology. Scholars in this field, with minds honed to laser-like intensity through a lifetime's study of Icelandic verb morphology, have suggested that 'Arahand' can be explained by contemporary English usage. Many foreign words, such as 'bodhisattva', 'Dharma', and so on, had been absorbed into English by this time. It is not unreasonable to suppose that 'Arahant' had also. Once a word has been absorbed, there are many examples of native grammatical formations being applied to it. For example, the word 'buddhologist' appears, as do 'karmic' and 'Buddhicize'. The formation 'Arahand' can thus be explained by analogy with words such as 'graduand'. The Latin gerundive suffix '-and' is used to denote someone in the process of becoming something, in this case a graduate. An Arahand, the theory runs, is thus someone who is *becoming* an Arahant. Supporters of this theory point to the context in which the term is first used. One of the first occurrences is in a discussion of the suicide of Cha.n.na. Cha.n.na was not an Arahant before he slit his throat, and after he slit his throat he was dead. In between, he could most accurately be described as an 'Arahand'. In the course of slitting his throat he changed at some mysterious point from an Arahand into an Arahant, just as in the course of a degree ceremony a graduand metamorphoses into a graduate. The controversy looks set to continue, and no doubt careers will be made out of it. We understand a two-volume work in German and English is currently in the course of preparation ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:43:56 EST From: "Peter D. Junger" Subject: Re: 'Protestant Buddhism' An example of a type of "Protestant Buddhism" may be seen in the Sunday services of the Buddhist Churches of America, which have adopted many of the forms that one associates with Protestant religious services, including the Sunday services themselves, the use of the term Church, "dharma talks" that are indistinguishable from sermons, and the singing of gathas that in many cases sound remarkably like protestant hymns. Since the religious affiliation of the Buddhist Churches of America is with the Jodo Shinshu they have no monastic tradition (in North America or in Japan) and they can be seen through Western eyes as putting a Protestant emphasis upon faith and grace. (As someone who attends the Cleveland Buddhist Temple, which is one of the Buddhist Churches of America, I may be protesting too much when I say that translating "shinjin" or "anjin" as "faith" and the "other power" or the "working of the vow" as "grace" seems to make rather a muddle of the basic Shin teachings, which are difficult enough to grasp without such misleading aids.) Peter D. Junger Case Western Reserve University Law School, Cleveland, OH Internet: JUNGER@SAMSARA.LAW.CWRU.Edu -- Bitnet: JUNGER@CWRU ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:54:48 EST From: Roger Corless Subject: May all beings die Freshmen often ask the really interesting questions which I have somehow missed over the years. Here's one such question: Buddhist conduct is based on treating other beings as I would myself wish to be treated. We normally use this as an argument for compassion, saying that since I wish to avoid pain and obtain pleasure, I will act this way towards other beings. But it could be an argument for hating beings and killing them. Recently a man entered a McDonald's hamburger store in the USA, shot and killed many people, then shot and killed himself. His actions seemed to say "I wish you to kill me. Treating others in this way, I will kill you." Does this make the "others as myself" basis for Buddhist compassion unworkable? I was unable to answer the student satisfactorily. What do my learned colleagues think? Roger Corless Phone (direct): (919) 684-2742 Dept. of Religion, Duke University FAX (Department): (919) 660-3530 Box 90964 Home phone/FAX: (919 286-9264 Durham NC 27708-0964, U.S.A. INTERNET: tashi@acpub.duke.edu May all beings be happy! (or, not???) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 14:00:29 EST From: Bob Simmonds Subject: Re: May all beings die --------------------------- Original Message --------------------------- Roger...The rule is obviously not applicable to masochists! > Does this make the "others as myself" basis for Buddhist >compassion unworkable? > I was unable to answer the student satisfactorily. What do my >learned colleagues think? Bob Simmonds 190 East Beach Rd. Nordland, WA 98358 206-385-2110 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 15:15:03 EST From: nrs2460.bhc1@pcmail.dcccd.edu Subject: Too much Gandhi will make you sick Dan and others - I was joking about Dionysus. That's why I appended a smiley face, which I really loathe. It was, however, merely a pseudo-smile. I was not joking about not being a Gandhi fan, so I hope Alan's message occurred when our server was down and before I wrote of my disaffiliation. I apologize about not knowing about Gandhi's caste sympathies. I am a bit puzzled, though, about all the conflicting descriptions of Gandhi, his religion, and his politics. Is there more than one Gandhi? Should we instigate the "quest for the historical Gandhi"? (I would be very interested in a discussion on Wilbur's schemata, if anyone else on the list is. From now on, though, I'm going to try to lie low. Or go dance with the pseudo-Maenads.) Happy trails, Nancy S. nrs2460.BHC1@pcmail.dcccd.edu ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 18 Apr 1994 to 19 Apr 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Wed Apr 20 16:33:03 1994 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 16:03:37 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 19 Apr 1994 to 20 Apr 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 15 messages totalling 633 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Why Has Bhodi Dharma Left for the East? 2. Mentally produced wind (2) 3. 'Protestant Buddhism' (2) 4. Suicide and Arahants (2) 5. Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta -Repl (2) 6. May all beings die 7. 'Protestant Buddhism' and Zen 8. Military aggression and arhants 9. Wilber, Freud and Jung 10. Methinks Protestant is too much 11. A note from the monitor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 16:17:14 EST From: "Jason J. Park" Subject: Why Has Bhodi Dharma Left for the East? Has anyone seen the movie "Why has Bhodi Dharma Left for the East"? I thought it was a very well made movie about Zen Buddhism but I could not really understand what the cow in the movie represented. Could anyone send some comments? Thanks Jason Park ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 17:20:07 EST From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Re: Mentally produced wind >Finally, a question -- how do you all find the time to write all of this stuff >on Buddha-L while maintaining teaching & research responsibilities? >Paul Nietupski "teaching & research responsibilities"? What's that? Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 17:24:06 EST From: L S Cousins Subject: Re: 'Protestant Buddhism' Jan Nattier writes: >If this is "a non-issue for the rest of Buddha-L," then this >network is in sad shape indeed! Let's hope many of our >number will take up this quetion. It is a vital topic, it >seems to me, for understanding much of what is going on in >Buddhism in the late 20th century, and not only in Sri Lanka. I get the impression that there is more response on Buddha-l to philosophical issues than to historical ones. Or is that view based on too small a sample? >To begin at the beginning, it seems to me important to take >note of the fact that the original source [aha! itself a >Protestant obsession] for the term "Protestant Buddhism" >is not that of a Westerner/outsider, but of an Asian >scholar of Buddhism, viz. Gananath Obeyesekere. >The term has since been >picked up by a number of others, including Richard Gombrich, >who has done some very interesting collaborative work with >Obeysekere. (See for example the chapter "Protestant >Buddhism" in their jointly authored _Buddhism Transformed: >Religious Change in Sri Lanka_.) A detailed description of the phenomenon was given first by Heinz Bechert, but he used the term Buddhist Modernism. The identification of a new form of Buddhism goes back at least to Bishop Copleston (1892). >It also seems important to distinguish clearly between >Buddhisms with long local traditions (e.g., in Sri Lanka >and Japan) "re-forming" themselves -- no value judgement >implied here -- in the image of the predominantly >Protestant religion of their colonial or wartime >conquerors, and the reformulated and selective Buddhisms >of recent Western converts, whose content is likewise >shaped by both conscious and unconscious mainly >Protestant preferences. These are clearly related >phenomena, but they are certainly distinct at least >at the outset, and it would probably make sense not >to lump them together prematurely. I think this is a very important distinction. >The value of the term "Protestant Buddhism," it seems to >me, is that it conveys not only a religious "type" (for >which other terms, such as those suggested by Lance >Cousins, might well be preferable), but a historically >observable cause-and-effect relationship: what Obeyesekere >calls "Protestant Buddhism" developed in a context in >which Protestant ideas of what a "good" religion should >look like held hegemonic sway. The problem here is that this cause-and-effect relationship is far from proven. In almost every case of claimed Protestant Christian influence there are other possible explanations. Should we really adopt a term that prejudges the issue before the scholarship has been taken very far? I suspect that some at least of the claimed Protestant tendencies will prove to derive from long-standing native tendencies. I don't doubt that there are also some definite influences, especially in the area of organization and methods of propagation e.g. the YMBA. Some however are fairly new in the history of Christianity and are probably a result of new technology and new economic circumstances rather than influence. >One of the touchy aspects of this debate is that many of >those who espouse varieties of Buddhism that Obeyesekere >would call "Protestant" have themselves been fervent >patriots (if not outright nationalists), opposed to >foreign domination and eager to show that their own culture >has produced a religion capable of measuring up to the >\colonialist's standards. (I think the irony is evident here.) >Among Western converts to various stripped-down, rationalized, >and lay-oriented forms of Buddhism are likewise many who >are uncomfortable with the idea that such modern forms of >Buddhism are heavily indebted to the values of Protestantism >(a religion many of them have voluntarily abandoned), and >moreover would be unrecognizable to Shakyamuni. (a strong >way to put it perhaps, but we may as well get the debate >going!) Thus some of the strongest defenders of what can >be called "Protestant" forms of Buddhism, in both of these >camps, are the most reluctant to see the Protestant content >or better, framework) of their position. Hence, I suspect, >some of the objections to the term. I am sure this is right. Should we be using a terminology which is objectionable to those it describes? Or shall we go back to Mohammedanism, Papistry, Lamaism (with Robin) ? >At any rate, the whole phenomenon of worldwide "Protestan- >tization" of other religions is a fascinating one, and well >worth careful comparative study. (This is certainly not >limited to the Buddhist sphere; witness the contemporary >"monotheicization" of devotional Hinduism, for example.) >We will probably get the most useful insights here if >we open the lens wide enough to include not just Buddhism >in various countries, but other religions as well. I agree. >Thanks to Brian Bocking for bringing up this timely topic, >and for passing on some good leads to pursuing it. My problem at the conference (a good one, incidentally) was the somewhat chameleon-like quality of the term Protestant. Over two days this was applied (in my hearing) to: Soka Gakkai, Nichiren, Shin, developments in Ceylon (Dharmapaala, etc.), early German Buddhists, Mongkut in Thailand, Mindon in Burma, present-day British Buddhists, various Chinese and Vietnamese developments and to the Tibetan Rime movement. Also to some Hindu developments. And to sixteenth, nineteenth and twentieth century forms of Christianity. So we certainly opened the lens fairly widely! I am not convinced however that there is any single feature in common to all these developments. >P.S. By the way, on the Japan front it's worth pointing out >that the Sooka Gakkai did not voluntarily secede from its >Nichiren Shooshuu parent sect; they were expelled by the >priesthood. This makes them "involuntary Protestants" in >one sense, though they were certainly moving toward some >Protestant stances (e.g., less dependence on the priesthood) >before this took place. Of course, one way to respond to >such an expulsion is via the "sour grapes" mode: "you can't >kick us out! you're corrupt and illegitimate anyway!" Much >of the contemporary "debate" between the Sooka Gakkai and >the Nichiren Shooshuu priesthood seems to be of this variety. Funnily enough, this was the subject matter in part of Brian Bocking's paper. Lance Cousins. -- Hon. Fellow, University of Manchester Home Address: 35 Burlington Rd, Withington, MANCHESTER, UK, M20 4QA Telephone (UK): 061 434 3646 (International) +44 61 434 3646 Fax (UK): 061 275 3613 (International) +44 61 275 3613 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 17:54:28 EST From: Leigh Charles Goldstein Subject: Re: Suicide and Arahants On Tue, 19 Apr 1994, Damien Keown wrote: > saasana and its flourishing would be of the kind we now see in > Tibet. A dhammaraaja *might* then see it as his duty to resist > the enemy by force. This is a debatable point, and apparently not > the view of the Dalai Lama. I believe that for a long time there was a militant Tibetan resistance underground for a number of years. At some point, the Dalai Lama asked that it disband. The implication would be that it operated with either his tacit or explicit support for quite a while, perhaps until he saw that it was ineffective. Also, the Dalai Lama has publically questioned the wisdom of his non-violent approach because it hasn't seemed to work. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leigh Charles Goldstein goldstel@essex.hsc.colorado.edu voice: 303-478-5292 (USA) CIS 70304,211 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 18:40:18 EST From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Re: Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta -Repl >Dan Lusthaus: >You said that you have loads of reservations about Ken Wilber's (note >the correct spelling of the name) theories. I'd be very >interested to see some discussion of this issue. I think I have a >good understanding of what Wilber says, but I still have a lot to >learn about the traditions which he claims all share the same basic >underlying message. Many find it a very attractive message, and there >have been some eloquent defenses of his position (e.g., by Huston >Smith and Frithjof Schuon). The implications of his views are vast, >making the issues he raises important ones to explore. Would you or >others be interested in explaining the weaknesses in this approach? Pat, Since I have on numerous occasions on this list and others (the recently closed Taoism-L is one example; it closed because defenders of the Perennial Philosophy in the incarnation of the Tao of Pooh took loud and angry exception to "scholars" [a dirty word in their sect] suggesting that they weren't getting their "taoism" unadulterated) stated my objections to subsuming all religions under one rubric (call it gnosticism, neoplatonism, quietism, german romanticism, perennial philosophy, theosophy, transcendental psychology, or whatever), I'm not going to rehearse all that again. Harold Bloom's _The American Religion_ makes an (inarticulate) argument that the underlying religion in America today is Gnosticism, that mainstream religion only acts as a veneer under which its followers basically believe gnostic principles. Had the book been better written it might have had more impact, since his basic thesis is correct. As for Wilber (who is a very clever and enjoyable writer), anyone who ranks Jung high above Freud is missing something important. (In Indian today Sanskrit pundits [the serious textualists who refuse to teach or write in English] study Freud - translated into Sanskrit - and consider him a fellow pundit; I'm not aware of anything comparable happening with Jung.) (Other comments about Wilber will have to await the next kalpa) Smith and Schuon are well known perennialists (as was Conze, Coomeraswamy, and a host of others), so their support for a fellow perennialist should not be considered an unbiased endorsement. The simplest rejoinder to perennialism is that it just doesn't get the traditions right. What they say the traditions say, and what the traditions themselves have said, do not concur. Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 19:54:56 EST From: Lefty Subject: Re: Suicide and Arahants Damien Keown writes > >If someone thought that upaaya *did* apply to the fourth precept, >then they'd have to be consistent and apply it to the other >precepts as well. In the case of the First Precept it would mean >you can kill someone if it 'elicits a response that is beneficial' >(for who?). I'm sure we can all think of many suitable candidates >for beneficial disposal, but somehow I don't think the Buddha >would approve. What, I wonder, about the well-known story of the ship captain and the thief? Isn't this _precisely_ a case of an action which violates the First Precept, but is nonetheless appropriate? You have mentioned self-defense as a possible "out" in another posting, but my recollection is that the captain was exculpated not only because he saved the lives of the other pasengers, but also because he spared the potential murderer from the bad karma he would otherwise have incurred. Am I missing something? -- Lefty (lefty@apple.com) C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 19:58:34 EST From: Pat Williams Subject: Re: Ethics in Buddhism and Vedaanta -Repl Dan: Thanks for your response to my question about Wilber's views. I'm thinking about what you've said, and I do hope that you or others will write more on this topic at some point, or that someone will tell me how I can retrieve what you've previously written. If taoism-l no longer exists, I wonder if their archives might still be accessible somehow? It would be helpful for me to see some discussion of specific points that Wilber or other perennialists make about one or more of the traditions but which are in error. One more thing, BTW. Though lots of transpersonalists hold Jung in high regard, moreso than Freud, Wilber is not one of them. He's been highly critical of Jung and writes that Freud's contribution to our understanding has been much greater. Pat Williams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 20:00:32 EST From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Re: Mentally produced wind >Dan Lusthaus writes the following. > >> Further, the idea that "mind" survives death --- can you cite ANY Buddhist >> text that would claim that? > >If survives means that its continuum endures, then that is what Asanga >says in the Vini'scayasamgrahanii (as does the author of the >Abhidharmasamuccayabhaa.sya) about the aalayavijnaana. See Griffiths' >_On Being Mindless_, especially pp. 130 ff. > >And in terms of 'mind,' of course there are a number of texts that >equate citta and aalaya. > >Have I missed the point here? > >Joe Wilson Joe, Richard, if I remember correctly, had explicitly excluded Yogacara from his list of "propositions that all Buddhists would accept." As for whether the streamlike flowing of the citta-santaana (or aalaya-vij~naana) can be described as a "mind" surviving death, I think not. The stream is changing from moment to moment. None of its constituents endures beyond a moment. The stream is composed of seeds, vaasanaa, citta, and caittas that causally produce their immediate successors each and every moment. In a loose way one can talk about the mind-stream providing continuity from one life to the next, but the Yogacarins build so many qualifications into their aalaya theories (in part, to distance it from Samkhya's prak.rti and Hindu aatman theories), qualifications that preclude thinking of anything in the mind-stream surviving more than a moment, that to say "the mind survives death", as if a mind is a thing that reincarnates, is going farther than they are trying to permit. Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 20:01:38 EST From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Re: May all beings die Roger Corless poses: > Buddhist conduct is based on treating other beings as I would >myself wish to be treated.[...] > Recently a man entered a McDonald's hamburger store in the USA, >shot and killed many people, then shot and killed himself. His actions >seemed to say "I wish you to kill me. Treating others in this way, I will >kill you." > Does this make the "others as myself" basis for Buddhist >compassion unworkable? > I was unable to answer the student satisfactorily. What do my >learned colleagues think? Roger, this seems grist for the argument that one should distinguish sharply between the "positive" version of the golden rule (found primarily in Christianity) and the "negative" golden rule (found most everywhere else. The negative version (found in the Hebrew Scriptures, Confucian Analects, etc.) reads: Don't do unto others as you would not have them do unto you. Rather than encouraging one to impose one's own fetishes and delusions on others - to be a missionary, in other words - one is enjoined to refrain from doing things to others that one would not like done to themselves. It wouldn't absolutely prevent someone from shooting up a MacDonald's or a post office, but at least the perpetrator wouldn't be able to claim he did it as an act of compassion. Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 06:12:47 EST From: Franz Aubrey Metcalf Subject: Re: 'Protestant Buddhism' and Zen Bob Simmonds asked: > Brian...taking your definition of "Protestant", which seems reasonable to me, > isn't it true > that Zen is truly Protestant Buddhism? I realize Bob asked this question of Brian, but he *did* ask it in a public forum, so I'm going butt quickly in and say this question cannot rightly be asked without identifying what "Zen" is being asked about. Zen, historically and as currently practiced in Asia, is, in my opinion very much more Catholic than Protestant. That, in itself, should give us pause in employing such terms as general adjectives. Apart from its first few obscure centuries, the Ch'an/Zen tradition has, like Catholicism, centered around large and powerful monasteries, and has been more deeply involved in politics than lay outreach. In some respects, indeed, it out- Catholics Catholicism. In Japan, for instance, Zen groups that concentrate on meditational practice are very much the exception, local priestly rituals, especially those connected with funerary rites, being the church's main occupation (I almost said "vocation," but that would be too Protestant.:-)). Apologies to genuine scholars of Japanese Zen, but I had to set up the contrast to Zen in America, my real field. Here, of course, we have the "reformulated and selective Buddhisms of recent Western converts." (Nattier). In Zen's case this is indeed a very much more Protestant form of religion, as Bob rightly points out. I just didn't want the ahistorically inclined to be confused by Zen's rhetoric and Zen's apologists. Despite the myth-making of D.T. Suzuki, et al., to the contrary, we must see Zen in at least two (and, really, many more) incarnations, each being intimately and inextricably a product and a producer of its respective culture. Peace, Franz ================================================= Franz Aubrey Metcalf fmetcalf@crl.com That ol' U of Chicago But now happily researching in Los Angeles ================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 06:14:08 EST From: PHILMOS%CONU2.bitnet@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: Military aggression and arhants Damien Keown writes that >A dhammaraaja, surely, has no wish to kill anyone. His intention is that everyone should live in peace and harmony. However, in the Mahavamsa (please excluse incorrect transliteration) Dutthagamani clearly goes on the offensive against the Tamils, with a relic of the Buddha's on the end of his spear none the less! Is he chastised by the monks of his day (as represented in the text)? On the contrary they assure him that no harm has been done because those who have lost their lives were non-Buddhists. Sorry about the paraphrasing, but the book's back at the library and I no longer have the reference in front of me. Phil Moscovitch philmos@vax2.concordia.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 06:15:33 EST From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Wilber, Freud and Jung > Though lots of transpersonalists hold Jung in >high regard, moreso than Freud, Wilber is not one of them. He's been >highly critical of Jung and writes that Freud's contribution to our >understanding has been much greater. > >Pat Williams If so, then that must be a more recent development in his thinking (and probably one for the better). In his earlier works, he offers hierarchical charts working from the low (Freud's so-called "ego-psychology" is usually placed here or on the second rung), and working up. Jung's psychology usually is near the penultimate "transpersonal" level - the transpersonal itself being an idea in some ways dependent on and related to Jung's collective unconscious. If Wilber has progressed beyond that, so much the better. Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 06:30:33 EST From: HMARAIP@usthk.ust.hk Subject: Re: 'Protestant Buddhism' I am very interested in the question of "Protestant Buddhism," and I am particularly intrigued by what kind of Zen (where, when, what aspects) are understood by Bob Simmonds to be truly Protestant. Thanks for your response, in advance. Paula Arai Hong Kong U. of Sci & Tech. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 08:40:12 EST From: Richard Philip Hayes Subject: Methinks Protestant is too much In several of yesterday's many, many (37!) messages, mention was made of perennialism. One of my students asked me what perennialists do or believe, and on being asked I realized that I haven't the slightest idea. Perennialism has apparently not come to Montreal yet, and the term does not occur in any of my dictionaries or encyclopedias of philosophy. Since the only context in which I hear the word `perenniels' frequently used is by gardners, I assume it has something to do with horticulture. Does it also have something to do with religion? Somebody please answer, for I suspect many of us don't have a clear idea what this perennialism business is all about. Another major theme in yesterday's postings was Protestantism. While I agree with Jan Nattier and others who think the topic itself is important, I am inclined to weigh in with Lance Cousins in thinking it may be advisable to find some other term. `Protestantism' is a term that has a fairly precise historical meaning within Christianity, where it is associated with the very specific doctrines of sola scriptura, sola fides and ad fontes. There is probably not any Buddhist movement that insists that 1) scriptures alone (as opposed to traditional evolutions of ideas in the scriptures) are authoritative, and 2) only faith (as opposed to good works) are effective in achieving the highest good, and 3) the purest form of the religion is to be found at the historical source (ad fontes), and the further one gets from that source, the more corrupt the religion becomes. To be sure, there are counterparts to each of these classically Protestant ideas in the long history of Buddhism, but to be quite parallel to Protestant Christians, Protestant Buddhists would have to adhere to all three. This may seem a hopelessly narrow and unimaginative stance to take, but if we wander from this fairly strict set of criteria, we soon face the situation in which the term `protestant' is being applied to practically anything that makes modifications to the tradition it has received. Does anyone *not* do that? I refer you to Lance Cousins's message in which he offers a long list of modern religious movements that have come to be called Protestant and observes that there may be nothing that all these so-called Protestant movements have in common. For much the same reason that I oppose transferring the term Fundamentalism to religions other than Christianity (where it has a very precise definition), I am cautious about applying terms like `Protestant' outside its home religion. I do, however, insist that Theravada should be called Presbyterian Buddhism, since the terms `thera' and `presbyter' both refer to people who have attained full maturity and wisdom. And I think also that Buddhists as a whole should be called Methodists, since they make so much of the path (maarga) and the word `method' (meta hodos) means following the path. That is why, when I teach my course on Theravada Buddhism, I call the course Presbyterian Methodism. It makes my Christian colleagues purr like kittens. Richard P. Hayes Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 08:41:32 EST From: Richard Philip Hayes Subject: A note from the monitor As fanger of this mung of squiddlers, it is my liripoop to shab all roaky trantles pricked by fopdoodles, hoddypeaks and mobards, as quickly as a windsucker dives from the scrow and sinks its ongles into a shiterow. I icchen sloomily each sparrowfart and ere glopping my crug, I begin my darg as your teenful theow. Although I try to be hoful as I umbecast each pancart, my decisions may make some heanlings thrunch. Most merely flerk, blore and quetch, but some fnasting breedbates may want to frush and suggill me for floccinaucinihilipilification, or at least for spuddling. >From the paragraph above some of you will have inferred that I cleaned my office yesterday, and while rearranging my bookshelves rediscovered one of my favourite books: Susan Kelz Sperling, _Poplollies and Bellibones: A Celebration of Lost Words_ (Penguin Books, 1977). Sperling has enriched the vocabularies of her many admiring readers with all kinds of words that are in the Oxford English Dictionary but which rarely make it into print any more. Some of the words are so good that I think we should work to revive them. After all, if we are Quixotic enough to care about a dying religion such as Buddhism, we should also care enough to try to bring a bit of colour back into the sallow cheeks of the English language, which has been flogged nearly to death (in North America, at least) by advertising firms, journalists, academics and writers of computer documentation. Here is a commentary (NOT an autocommentary, you'll notice) of the opening paragraph: As fanger (guardian) of this mung (group) of squiddlers (people who waste time in idle talk), it is my liripoop (role) to shab (reject) all roaky (unclear) trantles (articles of little value) pricked (written) by fopdoodles (simpletons), hoddypeaks (fools) and mobards (boors), as quickly as a windsucker (falcon, also known as windfucker or fuckwind) dives from the scrow (sky) and sinks its ongles (claws) into a shiterow (heron). I icchen (stir) sloomily (sleepily) each sparrowfart (crack of dawn) and ere (before) glopping (swallowing) my crug (food), I begin my darg (day's work) as your teenful (irritating) theow (servant). Although I try to be hoful (careful) as I umbecast (ponder) each pancart (a message posted in public), my decisions may make some heanlings (base persons) thrunch (very angry). Most merely flerk (twitch), blore (cry) and quetch (moan), but some fnasting (snorting) breedbates (troublemakers) may want to frush (strike) and suggill (beat black and blue) me for floccinaucinihilipilification (trivializing something of great value), or at least spuddling (putting on airs). Seriously, folks, because of the flow of messages has been extraordinarily heavy, I have redirected and filtered out several messages that seemed not to be of general interest. Please do not take offense if this happens to one of your messages. Why is everyone suddenly writing so much? Richard P. Hayes Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 19 Apr 1994 to 20 Apr 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Thu Apr 21 16:34:09 1994 Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 16:00:06 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 20 Apr 1994 to 21 Apr 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 17 messages totalling 785 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Conscious reincarnation 2. Why Has Bhodi Dharma Left for the East? (2) 3. May all beings die (2) 4. Suicide and Arahants (2) 5. Wilber, Freud and Jung -Reply (3) 6. Bull-taming, Oxherding Pictures 7. May All Beings Die 8. Re[2]: May all beings die 9. 'Protestant Buddhism' 10. Corpusculorum dissolutio 11. Delayed posting warning 12. Congregationalism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 16:56:05 EST From: cttart@ucdavis.edu Subject: Conscious reincarnation A little while back Andrew Doust asked for information on reincar- nation in the Tibetan tradition for a book he's preparing. The following will neither advance nor hinder scholarship, but will amuse..... In the mid-70s Chogyam Trungpa, well-known reincarnate lama, gave a lecture on the UC Davis campus. The central valley of California is not known for it's steady offerings of the spiritual best, so this was a BIG DEAL. All the seekers, hippies, spiritual types, etc. filled the auditorium, including quite a few UC Davis students in those days. Expectation was very high: we had a genuine, reincarnate Tibetan lama, a tulku no less! Trungpa gave a straightforward and sensible lecture about developing mindfulness. Too straightforward for such an august occult gathering, I guess. When he asked if there were any questions, a young woman wonderfully dressed in the best kind of hippie/spiritual finery of the time, raised her hand. In a voice full of expectation and sincerity, knowing she was addressing a tulku, a person who had _consciously_ chosen to reincarnate to help other beings, she asked: "Rinpoche, what can you _personally_ tell us about reincarnation?" The hall was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. Now we were going to get into the real spiritual stuff! Trungpa looked very, very thoughtful, was obviously mulling over a really deep answer to this deep question. After a minute, with the tension building in the atmosphere, he replied: "I'm here!" _________________________________________________ | | | Charles T. Tart * Communications Coordinates | | e-mail: cttart@ucdavis.edu fax: 510 526-2591 | | voice: 510 526-2591 | | mail: Psychology, UCD, Davis CA 95616 | |_________________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 16:57:13 EST From: John Dunne Subject: Re: Why Has Bhodi Dharma Left for the East? On Tue, 19 Apr 1994, Jason J. Park wrote: > Has anyone seen the movie "Why has Bhodi Dharma Left for the East"? I > thought it was a very well made movie about Zen Buddhism but I could not > really understand what the cow in the movie represented. Could anyone > send some comments? The ``cow,'' I believe, is meant to be a bull. You might recall that we first see the Bull bucking and kicking in a dark enclosure while the monks are meditating. The Bull then appears at odd times, and at one point the boy, catching a glimpse of it, chases it. Finally, we see the Bull, now tame, being led away by the old monk's disciple. All these scenes are allusions to a series of pictures sometimes called the "bull-taming" pictures that are now well known in Ch'an and Zen circles. According to some interpretations, the Bull is the `original self.' Someone else on the list can probabl interpret the pictures far better than I and provide you with a reference. John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 16:58:42 EST From: John Dunne Subject: Re: May all beings die Roger Corless recently mentions `` the "others as myself" basis for Buddhist compassion'' as potentially indicating one's desire for homicidal and suicidal mayhem as an excuse for inflicting such on others. But whence comes this notion of ``others as myself?'' Two of the loci classici for the practice of compassion in Mahaayaan Buddhism are the _Bodhicaryaavataara_ and the _"Sik.saasamuccaya_, both composed by "Saantideva. The basic paradigm espoused by "Saantideva might yield the aphorism, ``Do unto others whatever they wish, and let them do unto you whatever they wish.'' Certain limitations are placed on the first half of the phrase. That is, one should fulfill the desires of others provided that those desires are not manifestly harmful to them. The same provision applies to the second half of the phrase. Such a paradigm yields verses such as these in chapter 3 of BCA: yathaasukhiik.rta"s caatmaa mayaaya.m sarvadehinaam ghnantu nindantu vaa nityam aakirantu ca paa.msubhi.h//12// krii.dantu mama kaayena hasantu vilasantu ca dattas tebhyo mayaa kaaya"s cintayaa ki.m mamaanayaa//13// kaarayantu ca karmaa.ni yaani te.saa.m sukhaavaham anartha.h kasyacin maa bhuun maam aalambya kadaacana//14// I have dedicated myself to all beings (to do with) as they wish; let them constantly beat me, abuse me, or smear me with dirt; //12// Let them play with my body, laugh at it and sport with it. I have given my body to them, so what's the point of worrying about it? //13// Let them have (me) do whatever deeds bring them joy; let no one ever have any misfortune on my account.//14// **** Clearly, this is not a case where ``others as myself'' applies. The point here and throughout the above mentioned texts is not to treat others in a way that will also bring happiness to oneself. Such a motivation is implicit in the ``others as myself'' paradigm. Rather, the point is to make others happy, *regardless* of what happens to oneself. With the proviso that one always use wisdom to discern the outcomes of actions ("Sik.saasamuccaya has some thoughts on this), one can thus say, ``Treat others as others would have you treat them, and forget about what that entails for yourself.'' I hope this offers an answer to your student, Roger. John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 17:04:41 EST From: "Adrian Machiraju, Royal Holloway" Subject: Re: Suicide and Arahants I imagined that the suicide thread had passed peacefully away, having come to the end of its natural life. Indeed, I am sure it had reached the end of its useful life. Alas, it must have generated some bad karma, as it now seems to have been reborn. Anyone for infanticide? I quote Damien Keown (or should that be Richard II?): >Let's remember that the moral status of an action in Buddhism is >determined to a large extent by what you *intend*. In >self-defence, the intention is not to destroy the life of the >assailant, but to neutralise the attack. It may come about in >certain extreme situations that there is no way to do this except >by using lethal force, but this outcome is not >sought as an end in itself. >The principle of respect for life >requires only that we do not deliberately set out as an aggressor >to destroy life. So long as the dhammaraaja is not the aggressor, >then, he is perfectly entitled to defend the security of his >realm and the lives of his subjects against attack. This analysis strikes me as exemplary. I would merely suggest that, by means of a few straightforward substitions, one may apply precisely the same analysis to a closely similar case: Let's remember that the moral status of an action in Buddhism is determined to a large extent by what you *intend*. In euthanasia, the intention is not to destroy the life of the patient, but to alleviate the suffering. It may come about in certain extreme situations that there is no way to do this except by bringing about death, but this outcome is not sought as an end in itself. I doubt if this will convert Dr Keown to my position - the position argued in a much more scholarly way by Richard Hayes - but I hope it may help him to understand it. (As for his out-Hayesing Hayes - well, they do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery . . .) Adrian Machiraju, Bedford Library, UHYL005@VAX.RHBNC.AC.UK Royal Holloway College, University of London, Tel. +44-784-443327 Egham, Surrey, TW20 0EX, U.K. FAX +44-784-437520 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 17:09:15 EST From: nrs2460.bhc1@pcmail.dcccd.edu Subject: Wilber, Freud and Jung -Reply Friends - This is somewhat off the subject of historical Buddhism- but, really, Dan, surely you read enough of Wilber to know that his hierarchies are not honorifics. Freud discusses a lower developmental level than Jung. This doesn't mean that Freud is more wrong than Jung, or less worthy. Wilber has been rather consistent in his criticisms of Jung and the damage his work has done to philosophy. Also, Wilber is very careful to distinguish deep structures - which can be cross-cultural - from culturally-bound structures. ("Deep" isn't his word, but I don't have my books here.) He is quite clear that he knows that the cultural manifestations of religions (and of groups within religions) are not at all identical. Usually I enjoy what Dan has to say, assuming that he is a very careful scholar in the areas which I have to take on faith, not having the requisite languages. Is my faith shaken by what I perceive to be a total misstatement of something rather clearly written in English? Yep. Your friend, Nancy Smith nrs2460.BHC1@pcmail.dcccd.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 20:26:19 EST From: "Wm. B. Douglas" Subject: Re: Why Has Bhodi Dharma Left for the East? >... >Someone else on the list can probabl interpret the pictures far better >than I and provide you with a reference. > > John Dunne In an attempt to oblige, I provide here the bibliographic data on a wonderful comparative study of the ox-taming pictures (elephant-taming, in Tibet) in a few different traditions. A full set of illustrations and the accompanying verses are provided in each of four traditions. The comparison between the two Zen versions, one sudden and one gradual, is particularly interesting. Le Chemin de l'eveil : illustre par le dressage du buffle dans le bouddhisme chan, le dressage du cheval dans le taoisme, le dressage de l'elephant dans le bouddhisme tibetain / Catherine Despeux. [Paris] : L'Asiatheque, c1981. Enjoy! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 20:30:50 EST From: flehman@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Suicide and Arahants Responding to A. Machiraju's recent posting of even date, but also to earlier postings this week on this topic, I feel obliged to reiterate a point I made, in passing actually, earlier on in this endless discussion about whether the First Precept is to be understood as a true moral Absolute. It seems clear to me from ample evidence from the canonical Merit theory that it is a capital mistake to take any given act, together with its intention as needed, as generating Merit OR Demerit UNIQUELY. Killing is held to be bad, absolutely, just in the sense that, whatever else it generates it will certainly generate a considerable fund of Demerit. If one kills, let us say, in order to protect Religion (which is what even exemplary kings had to do from time to time), it has bad 'karmic' consequences (I hate that fake adjective): BUT it will also, by its intention both (as I understand it from scripture, and from my monastic teachers) have some good consequences for protecting Religion. And it appears that at very least its bad consequences will be perhaps somewhat less terrible, but that is a frequently debated point. Certainly,as I pointed out previously, even exemplary monarchs in this system were understood to have to undertake this sort of thing and were understood to perhaps be better able to bear the burden of it owing to the great Merit Store which was behind their having got to occupy such a lofty position with so large a Field of Merit. Demerit and Merit cannot cancel one another out, of course (Spiro has a fine passage about this in his consideration of the odd Burmese custom of keeping Merit 'account books'), but that hardly means that an act is either absolutely and uniquely the one thing or absolutely and uniquely the other. Of course, there is the possibly hypothetical case of the person who has already attained Arhat-ship and who is thus free from all further effects in sa.msaara. Were he (arguably, she) to kill, would it generate bad consequences? Who knows? That killing could, I am forced to assume, only be driven by purest kaaru.naa, and I do not intend to wade into the swamp recently generated (by Richard Hayes?) in discussions of the question whether Compassion can possibly be without any sort of tanha/Attachment. This is, nevertheless, the relevant consideration for such a case. I mean to suggest that the following question is entailed: could an Arhat kill at all? Could he(she?) perform an act even of Compassion if (a) Compassion entails attachment and (b) an Arhat has none of the latter at all? Indeed, one may ask whether such a person can perform an act that is other than absolutely intentionless a question that is not new, by the way? But I said I'd avoid that swamp, so let it go! Let me instead turn, finally, to the question raised recently in this discussion of the pragmatic logic of the First Precept. Remember the discussion of a possible case in which someone wishes to die and so, treating others no differently than he would have himself treated, he goes about killing? It was asked how that bears upon the idea that the First Precept might be motivated by the idea of something like a naive version of Do Unto Others ... I think, however, this is seriously mistaken. The idea seems rather to be something like this: not to be the agent of someone else's further dukkha in sa.msaara. That is, not to be the cause of someone's going to a next moment of existence without, say, the oportunity to do more in the present life to acquire Merit (or at least to concentrate one's mind upon one's Merit Store before kicking off in Southeast Asian Theravaada this is a major concern, not necessarily canonical and demonstrably related to the pre-Indic distinction between dyng good and bad deaths, as amongst neighbouring tribal peoples). Clearly, this is not quite enough. There is also understood the idea that it is uniquely one's own individual responsibility to earn one's Merit and/or Demerit, so that it makes no real difference that the person one has not killed may go on to do immeasurable further wickedness. Which, of course, brings one back to the suicide question; for at least in this instance it is indeed one's own doing, and it is not relevantly, in the intended sense of the First Precept, 'taking a life'! Moreover, I suspect, and hope someone will discuss this presently, that to assist one, compassionately, in such a suicide is arguably not a violation. In any case, it all has little if anything to do with treating others as one would have oneself treated. To the contrary, the distinction is implicitly drawn between how one treats oneself and the treatment of others. No one else's kamma is in your hands as yours is, by an apparent, if only tacit, Buddhist ethical axiom. Still, let us remember that one is none the less obliged by the most compelling set of canonical precedents and preachings to do what one can to try and keep others from doing evil, in particular from causing mayhem and death, which is to say, from being agents of the suffering of others EVEN THOUGH that very suffering is, in the final analysis, and inescapable result of the sufferer's very own store of Demerit. This is a genuine,that it inherently unresolvable, paradox, of course. Now, this faces one, possibly, with competing ethical imperatives: one the one hand. one is to get agents of suffering to desist (as the Lord Buddha did many, many times according to legend); one the other hand, one is under an obligation not to kill, even if the only way to get that agent of evil to stop isd to cause his death. What to do? Clearly one is required to strike compromise in the face of genuine paradox, and I suhggest that this, really, is what the idea of Buddhism as Middle Way is largely about. Some (certainly a Buddha or an Arhat, if canonical examples prove the point) will only do something short of murderous violence to get agents of evil to desist. Some (the aforesaid exemplary kings?) will take on the burden of Demerit, and use more terminal means.Perhaps this means the first course of compromise is the better, but, if so, then, indeed, the First Precept comes at least rather close to being, not a Moral Absolute, but still the most compelling of all. So, yet again it seems that what makes Buddhism a Middle Way is its nearly unique insistence (amongst ethical religions anyhow) on the need to recognise fully the inescapability of genuine paradox. Which is, no doubt, why I can rest content here with the full consciousness of having raised questions but not necessarily having answered them. One afterthought, if I may. In support of the notion that the idea behind Precept One is not to be the agent of another's entering involuntarily into further sa.msaara, let me point to an interesting piece of institutionalised Theravaada sophistry found, *inter aaliaa*, in Burma. I refer to the common social reluctance to, say, jump in an save a drowning person, excused altogether commonly by the claim that one ought not interfere with another's course of kamma. This comes about (which makes me call it sophistry, of course) because one takes the First Precept Absolutely, i.e., takes its underlying pragmatic logic Absolutely. Chit Hlaing F. K. Lehman 217-333-8423 Anthropology and Linguistics FAX:217-244-3490 University of Illinois 109 Davenport Hall 607 S. Mathews Avenue Urbana, IL 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 20:34:27 EST From: "T.Matthew Ciolek" Subject: Bull-taming, Oxherding Pictures >On Wed, 20 Apr 1994, John Dunne wrote: >All these scenes are allusions to a series of pictures sometimes= called the >"bull-taming" pictures that are now well known in Ch'an and Zen= circles. >According to some interpretations, the Bull is the `original self.' >Someone else on the list can probabl interpret the pictures far= better >than I and provide you with a reference. > Here is an untidy bunch of notes from my (unpublished) Magpies' Nest: ************************************************* TEN OXHERDING PICTURES, Oxherding Pictures, Ten Pictures of Cow Herding, Gentling the Bull, Ten Bull Herding Pictures. =20 A set of instructional pictures illustrating major stages in one's= Zen training. The chief works belonging to this tradition are by:=20 (1) =3D>Kuo-an Shih-yuan (J. Kakuan Shien) devised, painted and provided with a versed commentary a set of =3D>Ten Oxherding Pictures (2) =3D>Fumyo (C.?) [who, independently, also devised the =3D>Ten Oxherding Pictures], (3) =3D>Jitoku Eki (C. ?) who wrote the =3D>Six Oxherding Pictures,= and=20 (4) an unknown author who devised =3D>Ten White Ox Pictures. (5) =3D>Ch'ing-ch=FC Hao-sheng (J. ?) who designed =3D>Diagrams of= the Twelve Stages of Cow Herding A translation of =3D>Kuo-an Shih-yuan's (J. Kakuan Shien) commentaries is given in P.=3D >Reps' and N.=3D >Senzaki's =3D>Zen Flesh, Zen= Bones (1972). Commentaries are also given by Irmgard =3D>Schloegl in her =3D>Gentling the Bull: the Ten Bull Pictures (1987), D.T.=3D >Suzuki =3D>Manual of Zen Buddhism (1950) (reprinted in K. Brown and J. O'Brien "The Essential Teachings of Buddhism" (1989:290-294). Daizokutsu= R. =3D>Otsu's commentaries on the text were published in form of the= =3D>Bull and his Herdsman (1989). Modern ink-and-brush paitings were made by Gyokusei =3D>Jikihara= and were reprinted in P.=3D >Kapleau's Three Pillars of Zen (1965) and= Koji =3D>Sato's =3D>Zen Life. A set of commentaries by =3D>Kusan Sunim on a series of drawings prepared by Sokchong Sunim is provided in chapter eight of Kusan's= The =3D>Way of Korean Zen. (1985). Two out of ten pictures [#1,#10] painted for the =3D>Zen Mountain Monastery by Gyokusei =3D>Jikihara have been printed in Loori's =3D>Mountain Record of Zen Talks. (1988). =3D>Hakuin made a painting of a farmer making the "Obeisance to the= Ox". =3D>Sekkyakushi painted a picture of a boy taming the bull, entitled= "Ox at Pasture". The pictures and a brief commentary to the oxherding pictures them= are given by K.=3D >Sekida in his =3D>Zen Training (1975) Commentaries to the oxherding pictures were written by Z.=3D >Shibayama (in his =3D>Ju Gyo no Zu). Discussion of Kuo-an Shih-yuan's and Fumyo's work can be found in Z.=3D >Shibayama's book (in japanese) =3D>The= Ten Oxherding Pictures (1963). Extensive commentaries' to Jitoku's work can be found in Z.=3D >Shibayama's book =3D>Flower does not talk (1970:152-203). ************************************************* - with best regards - -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Dr T. Matthew CIOLEK tmciolek@coombs.anu.edu.au phone: +61 (0)6 249 0110 fax: +61 (0)6 257 1893 Coombs Computing Unit, Research School of Social Sciences, Australian National University, Canberra, ACT 0200, Australia =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 21:32:44 EST From: "K. Oh" Subject: Re: Wilber, Freud and Jung -Reply Nancy Smith writes: >Also, Wilber is very careful to distinguish deep structures - >which can be cross-cultural - from culturally-bound structures. >("Deep" isn't his word, but I don't have my books here.) He is >quite clear that he knows that the cultural manifestations of >religions (and of groups within religions) are not at all >identical. Wilber uses the words "deep structure" and "surface structure" (comparable to Schuon's "esoteric" and exoteric" dimentions of religions). FYI. K. Oh oh@max.cc.uregina.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 21:33:20 EST From: Andrew_Doust@rbgsyd.GOV.AU Subject: May All Beings Die Dear Roger Your example of the man doing into others as he would have them do unto him in the McDonald's shootout can still be explained as a result of wanting happiness and not wanting suffering - the gunman is this case is merely deluded over what really does give happiness. For him, shooting up the customers can be seen as an escape from whatever personal hell he has created for himself in this life ,- although, because of the karmic imprints incurred, it is no escape at all! His view of what is happiness is deluded, but this does not invalidate the principle of doing into others as you would have them do unto you. It just means that, as Buddhism has consistently stressed, true happiness cannot be achieved without wisdom. Hoping that this is not completely off the beam, and continuing to search for a little bit of wisdom myself... Andrew Doust ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 06:03:20 EST From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Re: Wilber, Freud and Jung -Reply --------------------------- Original Message --------------------------- Our friend, Nancy Smith, writes: >really, Dan, surely you read enough of Wilber to know that his >hierarchies are not honorifics. Freud discusses a lower >developmental level than Jung. This doesn't mean that Freud is >more wrong than Jung, or less worthy. Wilber has been rather >consistent in his criticisms of Jung and the damage his work has >done to philosophy. >Also, Wilber is very careful to distinguish deep structures - >which can be cross-cultural - from culturally-bound structures. >("Deep" isn't his word, but I don't have my books here.) He is >quite clear that he knows that the cultural manifestations of >religions (and of groups within religions) are not at all >identical. >Usually I enjoy what Dan has to say, assuming that he is a very >careful scholar in the areas which I have to take on faith, not >having the requisite languages. Is my faith shaken by what I >perceive to be a total misstatement of something rather clearly >written in English? Yep. You shouldn't trust anyone without investigating things for yourself, so there's not much I can do about your loss of faith, but as to your first paragraph: " Wilber['s] hierarchies are not honorifics. Freud discusses a lower developmental level than Jung." Is that a non sequitur, or am I missing something? I had said: "In his earlier works, he offers hierarchical charts working from the low (Freud's so-called "ego-psychology" is usually placed here or on the second rung), and working up. Jung's psychology usually is near the penultimate "transpersonal" level." I used the word "low", you used the word "lower." Why does my usage imply an "honorific" while yours does not? In my earlier message I said: "As for Wilber (who is a very clever and enjoyable writer), anyone who ranks Jung high above Freud is missing something important." Maybe you see it differently, but hierarchies are hierarchies BECAUSE they rank things. As for Wilber's claim (or yours) that Freud's psychology deals with a "lower [non-honorifically ranked] developmental level" than Jung, I still say that's baloney. Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College -------------------------------------------------------------------- Stern warning from BU*-L monitor: This tangent has strayed away from central focus of this list. Perhaps the discussion can be pursued privately or on WILBER-L. RPH ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 06:04:19 EST From: Raynald Prevereau Subject: Re[2]: May all beings die >I have dedicated myself to all beings (to do with) as they wish; let them >constantly beat me, abuse me, or smear me with dirt; //12// >Let them play with my body, laugh at it and sport with it. I have given >my body to them, so what's the point of worrying about it? //13// >Let them have (me) do whatever deeds bring them joy; let no one ever >have any misfortune on my account.//14// >... >``Treat others as others would have you treat them, and forget about what >that entails for yourself.'' As I was walking to a meeting today, I happened to walk by a group of prostitutes (I could tell by the `Hi honey' they threw at me), and it strikes me that the above verses by "Santideva that John quoted could have uttered by those poor women. What a world... Raynald Prevereau ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 06:06:13 EST From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: 'Protestant Buddhism' "Protestant Buddhism"--- One aspect of Western Buddhism that I think deserves the term in an interesting way is what I think of as Congregationalist Buddhism. When the San Francisco Zen Center began selecting its Roshis by committee, I think they were doing something very Anglo-American. Instead of accepting an empowered lineage holder or "dharma holder" as head of their center, they voted almost democratically for their roshi--- as if group wisdom could choose a person with qualities of realization as well or better than a realized master. I'm not criticizing the action, but I think it is a protestant style of religious government and bears the same relationship to traditional lineal empoewrment systems as protestant congregationalism does to Catholic methods of empowerment that rely on some theory of "apostolic succession." Robin Kornman, St Johns College ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 06:08:37 EST From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: Corpusculorum dissolutio "Actually, I find both Dharmakiirti's and Kamala"siila's arguments completely convincing. The only minor question that remains is this: If there isn't any material world, how come I've gained so damn much weight in the past five years? Is it because I have been imagining eating too much food and haven't been imagining doing enough exercise because I keep imagining I'm doing too much work?" The answer is so obvious. I'm amazed you havn't figured it out yourself. When you eat foods with a lot of fat in them, the fat may be pure designation (vijnapti), but it plants bijas of fat in your alayavijnana. The calories in fat are karmic. A hotdog is pure designation and part of its designation is a karmic calorie reading of 250 calories. When you experience eating the hotdog, the 250 calorie fat designation plants a bija worth 250 calories in your 8th consciousness where it subsists as a vasana worth 250 calories. When enough high-calorie vasanas interpenetrate, this causes the arisal of the first six consciousnesses as the experience of love-handles. Since the vasanas of the fat-bijas remain in the eight consciousness, the experience of love-handles continues for moment after moment for the rest of your life. The only way to lose this experience of love- handles is to produce the experience of aerobic exercise. This burns the fat bijas and that's what the women in tight trousers mean when they say "can you feel it burning? on the exercise shows on TV. You are overweight because of your karmic accumulations of fat. Here's the terrible thing, my friend. Even after you have realized that the entire phenomenal world including the objects of eye consciousness and body consciousness are mere projections of mind, mere waves on the surface of the ocean of the alayavijnana, you will still be fat. That's because after having attained realization, previous planted karic seeds continue to be there. And you must, as Yogacara texts recommend, go back and burn the seeds themselves. This can be done in two ways: you can return in contemplation to the 8th consciousness and burn the seeds in the fire of vipashyana. In this case, you will cease to experience yourself as fat. However, because of the interpenetration of dharmas in putative acts of perception by putative egos in samsara, others will continue to perceive you as fat until you burn their bijas as well. The only way you can do this is to produce the appearance of cutting fat out of your diet while appearing to others to do aerobic exercise thirty minutes a day. It is mere appearance, but you will definitely slowly seem to lose weight from the point of view or from the side of confused minds still dwelling in samsara. Diet Centers and Sweat Shops and Athletic clubs are great centers of Yogacaran philosopy. They understand the concepts of mere appearance, mind's projections, mind only, karmic debt, and emptiness perfectly. Robin Kornman, St Johns College ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 06:16:31 EST From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: May all beings die "Recently a man entered a McDonald's hamburger store in the USA, shot and killed many people, then shot and killed himself. His actions seemed to say "I wish you to kill me. Treating others in this way, I will kill you." ROger Corless asks if this is an example of compassion? I don't think so. The man's desire to kill others and for others to kill him was a DESIRE and compassion is not a desire. Desires and aversions are emotions or kle'sas. But compassion is supposed to operate on a different psychological dynamic. For example, I desire to eat hotdogs. I love hotdogs. But eating hotdogs is not an instance of self-love. I am not expressing friendliness or compassion towards myself when I eat a hotdog, for the outcome of my eating a hotdog is an increase in the size of my love-handles and a climb in my cholesterol count. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 07:57:55 EST From: Richard Philip Hayes Subject: Delayed posting warning With apologies in advance to all of you for whom BUDDHA-L is not merely an electronic discussion group or a religion but a Way of Life, I regret to announce with exuberant joy that I shall not be anywhere near a computer all day today and therefore shall not be able to forward postings from our team of hard-working authors to our throng of hard-reading subscribers. This condition will last until early this evening, at which time a veritable flood of postings will be forwarded all at once. The deluge is expected to wipe out major transfer nodes along the Infranet and strand voyageurs along the Information Super Hide-away. These conditions of diurnal dearth, followed by crepuscular crescendos, will continue through Saturday. After that, BUDDHA-L service will return to normal. Richard P. Hayes cxev@musica.mcgill.ca Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 08:28:25 EST From: Richard Philip Hayes Subject: Congregationalism Robbin' Cornmann (the guy who always spells my name Hayse) has pointed out the tendency of North American groups to move toward a Congregationalist model of decentralized groups in which the leaders are chosen democratically and are regarded as employees of the congregation rather than as enlightened lineage holders around whom a circle of disciples gathers. This situation has no doubt arisen because of the rather unpleasant experiences that several groups have had with transmissions of authority that did not work out very well. Several nearly disastrous changes of spiritual regime, combined with a deep-seated American mistrust of authority and concentration of power (a mistrust that is enshrined in the Constitution of the USA), have probably made these changes inevitable. The mythology of enlightened lineage holder seems to work well in strongly patriarchal societies, but it has not worked (and may never work) very well in societies that have deified equality. Several years ago when I was on the Board of Directors of the Zen Buddhist Temple (the very idea of a temple having a secular board of directors is very North American) in Toronto, we had to revise our constitution. The constitution, another typically North American institution, was required by Canadian tax law. No religious institution can be registered as a non-profitable charity unless it has a board of directors and a constitution. In the process of revising our charter, the members of the board began to debate the merits of various kinds of wording about the role of the President, who was also the Master. The Master demanded that the constitution specify that he is President for life and that certain other members of the board be designated members for life. His reason for demanding this was: "We must not allow ourselves to become like Protestants. I am a Zen Master, not an employee of the congregation." Funnily enough, the phrase `President for Life' rubbed most of the members of the board the wrong way. It sounded too much like something Papa Doc Duvalier or Idi Amin or Saddam Hussein would have written into a constitution. Even among those who were willing to regard Samu Sunim as their spiritual master until death tended to find the phrase `President for Life' appallingly undemocratic. The whole situation was a dramatic demonstration to me of the ways in which different systems of value can clash in ways that throw people into individual and collective confusion and crisis. Actually, I never found out how the whole thing came out at the Zen Buddhist Temple; being one of the adamant congregationalists, I got so distressed by the whole farce that I resigned from the board of directors. (`Never put a hot-headed puritanical yankee congregationalist on your board of directors if you aspire to be President for Life.' Isn't that the eleventh precept?) Richard P. Hayes cxev@musica.mcgill.ca Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 20 Apr 1994 to 21 Apr 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Fri Apr 22 16:07:07 1994 Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 16:00:26 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 21 Apr 1994 to 22 Apr 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 14 messages totalling 493 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Protestant Buddhism 2. May all beings die 3. Mac or DOS Buddhist LIne art. 4. Looking for Books 5. Why Has Bodhi Dharma Left for the East? (3) 6. QUERY 7. Kamalasila test query 8. Buddhist missionaries [retitled by ed.] 9. Military aggression and arhants 10. From Aviici to Akani.s.tha 11. Suicide and Arahants 12. Mac or DOS Buddhist LIne ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 18:31:19 EST From: John Dunne Subject: Protestant Buddhism Allow me to begin with a nominalist presupposition: when we use words for things, we do not do so because those words have some inherent relationship to some essence or attributes in those things. Clearly, our use of words is not random, so I would claim that our use of words is related to some purpose or set of purposes which we wish to accomplish. All this rigamarole brings me to the question, ``What is the purpose in using the term `Protestant Buddhism'?'' This question echoes B. Bocking's original query, but I am seeking a different answer. What *motivates* our choice of ``Protestant'' over terms such as `ultimatism,' `refomism,' and so on? In academic circles, one might claim that we seek to describe and analyze our object of study in the most accurate manner possible. Hence, one might choose `protestant' because its descriptive power exceeds that of the other terms. But, we might ask, of what is this term descriptive? B. Bocking remarked that the term might relate to the Western appropriation of Buddhism; in that case, the term refers to that which is: >culturally protestant, for the most part, if you interpret protestant in >the broad sense of adhering to the right of private judgement in matters >of religion. Historically, the notion of private judgement within Christianity stands in opposition to the Papal determination of truth. Such struggles continue today within the Catholic church, and they are analgous to political conflicts between the individual and the state. In the political realm of the U.S., resisting the draft during he Vietnam war is a prime example. That we can now have a president who resisted the draft is indicative of the high value we place on the `right' of individuals to come to their own moral judgements, regardless of the exigencies of the state. If we take `protestant' in this sense, we might use it for Western appropriations, but we cannot apply it to Asian contexts without a considerable degree of interpretive danger. I am not sure that we can find the same (or even analgous) political dynamics between individuals and hierarchical political structures as a significant motif in any Buddhist society. We might suppose that contact with the British encouraged the development of such ideas (and I would welcome any references on the topic), but how then do we explain our use of the term for cultures that did not have any such contact? Offering a different perspective on the descriptive power of `Protestant,' Jan Nattier noted: >The value of the term "Protestant Buddhism," it seems to me, is that it >conveys not only a religious "type" (for which other terms, such as those >suggested by Lance Cousins, might well be preferable), but a historically >observable cause-and-effect relationship ... But I would echo Lance Cousins response: >The problem here is that this cause-and-effect relationship is far from >proven. In almost every case of claimed Protestant Christian influence >there are other possible explanations. Should we really adopt a term that >prejudges the issue before the scholarship has been taken very far? Lance's remark brings me back to my question: what motivates our use of `protestant?' For me, part of that motivation stems both from a familiar tendency toward reductionism among academics and from a monolithic sense of Western Culture. In part, academia is necessarily a reductionist enterprise; without tying our history and experience into neat little bundles, we would be hard put to make any interpretations at all. But the terms `protestant' -- as it seems to be used here -- speaks of socio-political meanings that might have very little to do with Protestant Christianity. Although Marxists on Buddha-l are probably a rarity, a Marxist analysis might be more illuminating: consider the appeal and descriptive power of ``capitalist Buddhism'' or, better yet, ``bourgeois Buddhism.'' Other reductions lead to other possibilities: ``colonial Buddhism,'' ``Church-state Buddhism,'' ``democratic Buddhism,'' ``nationalist Buddhism,'' ``phallic Buddhism,'' ``intellectual Buddhism,'' ``elitist Buddhism,'' ... Many of these descriptions might yield interesting results, and our choice probably depends both on our interests and our values. Perhaps, for example, we choose ``Protestant'' because it reflects all that is upright and good in British society of the colonial period. This last remark brings me to my second point: the supposition of Western culture as Monolithic. The term `Protestant' assumes that the structures of Western (or, more specifically, British) culture were already immovably determined prior to contact with Buddhist cultures. `They' become Protestant; we, of course, stay as we are. It seems far more likely that the construction of a `Protestant' identity in British society during the colonial period relies as much upon the contributions of Asian societies as it does upon the internal workings of British society. In short, `Protestant' only has a meaning in relation to `Buddhism' because it was in part constructed by contact with Sri Lankans, Indians, Tibetans, Chinese, etc. In other words, `Protestant' Buddhism relies upon numerous Orientalist assumptions, not the least of which is the malleability of Asia and the immovablity of the West. I question, then, its usefulness in any description of Buddhism. John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 18:33:12 EST From: "Randall R. Scott" Subject: Re: May all beings die On Thu, 21 Apr 1994, Robin Brooks Kornman wrote: > > "Recently a man entered a McDonald's hamburger store in the USA, > shot and killed many people, then shot and killed himself. His actions > seemed to say "I wish you to kill me. Treating others in this way, I will > kill you." ROger Corless asks if this is an example of compassion? > > I don't think so. The man's desire to kill others and for others to kill > him was a DESIRE and compassion is not a desire. Desires and aversions > are emotions or kle'sas. But compassion is supposed to operate on > a different psychological dynamic. > > For example, I desire to eat hotdogs. I love hotdogs. But eating > hotdogs is not an instance of self-love. I am not expressing friendliness > or compassion towards myself when I eat a hotdog, for the outcome of > my eating a hotdog is an increase in the size of my love-handles and > a climb in my cholesterol count. Robin, May I kindly suggest here that if compassion is not an example of an emotive state, what, then, is it? If you are suggesting that compassion is more "restful" and desire is more "commotive," I tend to agree -- along these lines, "Compassion does not do; rather, compassion is." has been a useful aphorism for me. But are not all phenomenal, ontological states (and since we are all as it were *here,* what else is there that we can know with any certainty?) connected along a continuum that is essentially emotive? While Buddhism arose, it seems, from an effort to *understand* life as it is, does not Buddhism in at least equal measure have to do with an aversion to suffering and with variegated paths that lead to something emotionally better? Randy Scott Washington University in St. Louis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 19:33:09 EST From: HOUNG JACK IN_JAY Subject: Mac or DOS Buddhist LIne art. --------------------------- Original Message --------------------------- Hello fellow buddha-l subscribers: I'm looking for some mac or pc line art preferably on the internet. Does anyone know of any such archive. I need it for a buddhist publication that I will be helping out. Thanks in advance. =============================================================================== ======= ========= == == HH == == == HH == == == == JJJ iiii HH ======== == JJ ii HH hhhh ======= == JJ ii HHhh hh == == JJ ii HHh hh ======= JJ JJ ii HH hh Jack I. Houng ======= JJJJJ iiii HH hh houng@spot.colorado.edu hhh +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 19:33:50 EST From: GARY RAY Subject: Looking for Books A friend is looking for the following books: The Ratnagotara-shastra Cho-lun (treatise of sung-cho) Any help would be appreciated. Gary L. Ray (gary.ray@tigerteam.org) | Modem: 510-268-0102 Information Manager | Fax: 510-849-2158 Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network | Voice: 510-540-6565 "America's Buddhist Online Service" | Berkeley, CA U.S.A. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 20:58:16 EST From: Secki Subject: Why Has Bodhi Dharma Left for the East? The movie I saw was in korean but subtitled in english. I don't know how you could get the movie except for going to a local Korean video store and renting it though I doubt it will be subtitled. Jason Park jjpark@ccat.sas.upenn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 03:13:56 EST From: Leigh Charles Goldstein Subject: Re: Why Has Bodhi Dharma Left for the East? On Thu, 21 Apr 1994, Secki wrote: > The movie I saw was in korean but subtitled in english. I don't know how > you could get the movie except for going to a local Korean video store > and renting it though I doubt it will be subtitled. > You could call the University of Colorado at Boulder International Film Series and ask them where they obtained their 16mm print, which they screened about two weeks ago. Area code 303. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leigh Charles Goldstein goldstel@essex.hsc.colorado.edu voice: 303-478-5292 (USA) CIS 70304,211 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 03:15:25 EST From: Erik Davis Subject: QUERY Hello there: Do any of you digital dharma net surfers know where the Asian Classic Inputting Project's massive CD_ROM worth of transliterated Tibetan texts lies a'lurking on the net? I'm writing an article for Wired magazine (I wanted to profile Hayes, but they said the love-handles were a bit much for such a young and brassy magazine), and my web searches have proved unsuccessful. Thanks in advance. [__]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ \ / ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[__] [] Erik Davis (oo) Cernunnos sez (cribbing the Fall): The only [] [] erikd@panix.com __ thing real is waking and rubbing your eyes. [] [__]==================== ww ==============================================[__] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 06:26:07 EST From: MBLACKS%INDYVAX.bitnet@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: Re: Why Has Bodhi Dharma Left for the East? we don't have a lot of Korean video stores in Indianapolis. Hard to believe isn 't it! Oh Well! ~Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 06:27:19 EST From: "O. Rotem" Subject: Kamalasila test query Does any one know of English translations of Kamala"siila's Bhaavanaakramas. There is a French translation by Jose van den Broeck of the first, an Italian and French translation of the third by Cesario Pensa and Demieville, and a partial and 'non-academic' translation of the first by Stephan Beyer. Lopez, in his 1987 _Study of Svaatantrika_ (1987), says that Gomez is working on a major study of the Council of Lhasa that will include all three Bhaavanaakramas. Has anyone come across this. Lastly, did Kamala"siila transfer merit only to people with Latin names or working in Latin languges? Ornan Rotem ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 11:42:05 EST From: Damien Keown Subject: Buddhist missionaries [retitled by ed.] Dan Lusthaus writes: >Rather than encouraging one to impose one's own fetishes and delusions on >others - to be a missionary, in other words ... Isn't this a teeny bit narrow as a definition of missionary work? It might be said that there is an injunction in Buddhism to spread the Dharma, which is what the Buddha did out of compassion. Isn't spreading the Dharma missionary work? The Buddha tells monks to wander for the benefit of the world, no two going the same way. Asoka sent out missionaries, and monks took Buddhism to Tibet, China, and Southeast Asia. Perhaps this doesn't count as missionary work because Buddhists have no fetishes or delusions ... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 12:22:09 EST From: Damien Keown Subject: Re: Military aggression and arhants Philmos writes: >Damien Keown writes that >>A dhammaraaja, surely, has no wish to kill anyone. >His intention is that everyone should live in peace and harmony. > >However, in the Mahavamsa (please excluse incorrect transliteration) >Dutthagamani clearly goes on the offensive against the Tamils, with >a relic of the Buddha's on the end of his spear none the less! Is >he chastised by the monks of his day (as represented in the text)? >On the contrary they assure him that no harm has been done because >those who have lost their lives were non-Buddhists. ********************** Many dubious things have, of course, been done in the name of Buddhism and in the name of most other religions (and ideologies) at one time or another. My point related only to the theoretical possibility of a dhammaraaja ruling in accordance with the precepts. History reveals only too clearly that theory and practice don't always go hand in hand. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 12:26:30 EST From: R M L Gethin Subject: From Aviici to Akani.s.tha >From Aviici ... In the _Dictionary of Paali Proper Names_ (s. vv. Aviici, Devadatta), Malalasekera comments that Devadatta will spend 100,000 aeons in the Aviici hell. The source he cites is the commentary to the Dhammapada. On looking up this reference I find that what is said here (Dhp-a I 147-8) is that at the end of 100,000 aeons Devadatta will become a paccekabuddha, and that he sank into the earth and was reborn in Aviici, but _not_ explicitly that Devadatta will spend the whole of the 100,000 aeons continuously in Aviici. According to Buddhaghosa when at the end of an aeon world-systems contract -- and they do this in clusters of a [UK] billion (_ko.tisatasahassa_) -- all beings are born in at least the AAbhassara realm corresponding to the second jhaana (Vism XIII 29-65). Vasubandhu expresses a slightly different point of view (as does Dhammapaala at DA.T I 201): he says that at the end of an aeon when world-systems contract beings who still have karma to be experienced in hell are thrown into the hells of other world-systems not in the process of contracting (bhaa.sya to Abhidh-k III 89); but he still maintains (Abhidh-k III 83) that the lifespan of beings in Aviici is at most a mere _antarakalpa_ (an eightieth of a mahaakalpa). Question 1 Is there a tradition of Devadatta having to endure 100,000 aeons -- or even just an aeon or two -- in Aviici or is this just a slip on Malalasekera's part? To Akani.s.tha ... In the _La"nkaavataarasuutra_ (Nanjio ed. p. 361, Suzuki trsl. pp. 284-5) it is said that Buddhas gain enlightenment in the Akani.s.tha realm, the highest of the five pure abodes and one of seven realms corresponding to the fourth dhyaana (according to both the Vaibhaa.sika and Theravaada). Kamala"siila (commenting on "Saantarak.sita) explains: ``Sa.msaara consists of the five destinies comprising hells, hungry-ghosts, animals, gods and men; and since Buddhas exist outside this their mortality is not accepted. How then does one learn of their birth in the family of "Suddhodana and others? Accordingly he ("Saantarak.sita) says that it is their transformation[- bodies] that are perceived. Supporting this from scripture he utters the words beginning `In the Akani.s.tha ...' There are gods called the Akani.s.thas; in a certain place among them the gods are called 'those belonging to the pure abodes', for here only the pure noble ones dwell. Among them the highest place is called the Palace of the Great Lord, and there only bodhisattvas in their last existence who are established in the tenth _bhuumi_ are born, while here [in this world] by reason of their sovreignty in that place their transformation[- bodies] gain knowledge. Such is the tradition. (ad Tattvasa.mgraha 3549-50)'' I take this to mean that at the time of his birth "Saakyamuni was in fact already a Buddha and that his 'enlightenment' under the Bodhi-tree was for appearance's sake -- an _upaaya_. Standard accounts of the ten _bhuumis_ (e.g. in the _Da"sabhuumikasuutra_) as far as I can see make no mention of Akani.s.tha and state that tenth stage Bodhisattvas dwell in the sense-sphere Tu.sita heaven and then take a human birth and perform the twelve acts of a Buddha. That is, at the time of taking their human birth these beings are still Bodhisattvas and not Samyaksambuddhas; it is not _nirmaa.nakaayas_ of already enlightened beings that merely appear to gain enlightenment beneath the Bodhi-tree. In an article entitled `"Saakyamuni's Enlightenment According to the Yoga Tantra' (which I can't give the full reference for because I can't decipher the Japanese on the off-print, but it is something to do with Sa.mbhaa.sa 6), Tadeusz Skorupski explains that the Yoga Tantras (specifically the _Sarvatathaagatatattvasa.mgraha_) and commentaries describe how "Saakyamuni (still a tenth stage Bodhisattva), seated in meditation under the bodhi-tree, went off to Akani.s.tha and having received the appropriate empowerment gained enlightenment. Interestingly this (as opposed to the "Saantark.sita/Kamala"siila account) is really not very different from the account in the Paali canon; the _Bhayabherava-sutta_ describes the Bodhisatta as gaining the fourth jhaana (=Akani.t.tha) and then, on the basis of that attainment, the three knowledges which culminate in the knowledge of the destruction of the _aasavas_ (see M I 21-24; Horner, _Middle Length Sayings_ I 27-30). Question 2 Have I represented the various positions accurately? Question 3 Does anyone know of any other accounts of enlightenment specifically in the Akani.s.tha realm (apart from the La"nkaavataara, Tattvasa.mgraha and Yoga-Tantras)? Rupert Gethin Centre for Buddhist Studies University of Bristol Rupert.Gethin@Bristol.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 13:54:29 EST From: Damien Keown Subject: Re: Suicide and Arahants On the question of upaaya and ethics, Lefty writes: >What, I wonder, about the well-known story of the ship captain and the >thief? Isn't this _precisely_ a case of an action which violates the First >Precept, but is nonetheless appropriate? > >You have mentioned self-defense as a possible "out" in another posting, but >my recollection is that the captain was exculpated not only because he >saved the lives of the other pasengers, but also because he spared the >potential murderer from the bad karma he would otherwise have incurred. > >Am I missing something? ********************** No, I don't think you're missing anything, it's really a question of different currents in the tradition. I mentioned in my earlier posting that views of this kind are found in a number of Mahayana sources. In a tradition as complex as Buddhism there are many shades of opinion, and there was undoubtedly some attempt to shift the tradition through a more 'relaxed' moral stance to an extreme position where the precepts are abrogated. The question is how much significance to attach to these developments. My own view is that the extreme developments represent very much a minority opinion (something in the order of 5% at best). The individual sources also have to be examined very carefully, because sometimes they turn out to be saying something a little different to what one might suppose. The notion that the precepts should yield to compassion undeniably makes an appearance in Mahayana Buddhism. Similar developments can be seen in Christianity, for substantially the same reasons. It's not a view the Buddha endorsed, but in the final analysis you pays your money and takes your choice. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 14:07:36 EST From: GARY RAY Subject: Mac or DOS Buddhist LIne -> --------------------------- Original Message ------------------------ -> Hello fellow buddha-l subscribers: -> I'm looking for some mac or pc line art preferably on the internet. -> anyone know of any such archive. I need it for a buddhist publicatio -> I will be helping out. Thanks in advance. Hello again Jack, That's our speciality. Gary L. Ray (gary.ray@tigerteam.org) | Modem: 510-268-0102 Information Manager | Fax: 510-849-2158 Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network | Voice: 510-540-6565 "America's Buddhist Online Service" | Berkeley, CA U.S.A. ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 21 Apr 1994 to 22 Apr 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Sat Apr 23 16:09:53 1994 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 16:02:19 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 22 Apr 1994 to 23 Apr 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 11 messages totalling 602 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Military aggression and arhants 2. From Aviici to Akani.s.tha 3. QUERY 4. Western worldview and Buddhism (2) 5. Congregationalism (2) 6. Emotion [retitled by ed.] 7. Cakrasamvara at Harvard. 8. In praise of congregational Buddhism 9. Akani.s.tha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 17:09:26 EST From: L S Cousins Subject: Re: Military aggression and arhants PHILMOS%CONU2.bitnet@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU writes: >>Damien Keown writes that >>A dhammaraaja, surely, has no wish to kill anyone. >>His intention is that everyone should live in peace and harmony. >However, in the Mahavamsa (please excluse incorrect transliteration) >Dutthagamani clearly goes on the offensive against the Tamils, with >a relic of the Buddha's on the end of his spear none the less! Is >he chastised by the monks of his day (as represented in the text)? >On the contrary they assure him that no harm has been done because >those who have lost their lives were non-Buddhists. Sorry about >the paraphrasing, but the book's back at the library and I no >longer have the reference in front of me. This is often cited. I wonder if the most significant thing about it is the rather isolated nature of this statement. It is not found in the earlier Diipava.msa. Is there any other passage of this kind between the time of Du.t.thagaamani in the second century B.C. and the twelfth century A.D. ? I suspect that what is actually relevant about this passage is the fact that the author of the chronicle felt it necessary to defend the king from critics who must have argued the opposite. Even he seems to be ambivalent about his own statement, as a few verses later we read: Should a man think on the hosts of human beings murdered for greed in countless myriads, and should he carefully keep in mind the evil (arising from that), and should he also very carefully keep in mind the mortality (sic) as being the murderer of all, then will he, in this way, shortly win freedom from suffering and a happy condition. (Geiger's translation) Incidentally the spear was probably carried before him as a standard, not used. Lance Cousins -- 35 Burlington Rd, Withington, MANCHESTER, UK, M20 4QA Telephone (UK): 061 434 3646 (International) +44 61 434 3646 Fax (UK): 061 275 3613 (International) +44 61 275 3613 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 17:10:28 EST From: L S Cousins Subject: Re: From Aviici to Akani.s.tha R M L Gethin writes: >According to Buddhaghosa when at the end of an aeon world-systems contract >-- and they do this in clusters of a [UK] billion (_ko.tisatasahassa_) -- >all beings are born in at least the AAbhassara realm corresponding to the >second jhaana (Vism XIII 29-65). Vasubandhu expresses a slightly different >point of view (as does Dhammapaala at DA.T I 201): he says that at the end >of an aeon when world-systems contract beings who still have karma to be >experienced in hell are thrown into the hells of other world-systems not >in the process of contracting (bhaa.sya to Abhidh-k III 89); but he still >maintains (Abhidh-k III 83) that the lifespan of beings in Aviici is at >most a mere _antarakalpa_ (an eightieth of a mahaakalpa). According to Vibh-anu.t (_Dispeller of Delusion_, Vol. II p. 299 n.7) the lifespan of beings in Aviici is an antarakappa (one sixty fourth of an asa.mkheyyaakappa in the Pali tradition). >Is there a tradition of Devadatta having to endure 100,000 aeons -- or even >just an aeon or two -- in Aviici or is this just a slip on Malalasekera's >part? Probably a slip. >To Akani.s.tha ... > >Question 3 >Does anyone know of any other accounts of enlightenment specifically in >the Akani.s.tha realm (apart from the La"nkaavataara, Tattvasa.mgraha and >Yoga-Tantras)? See Lessing, Ferdinand D. and Alex Wayman (trans.), _Mkhas grub rje's Fundamentals of the Buddhist Tantras_, Indo-Iranian Monographs, 8, Mouton, The Hague and Paris, 1968. The section on 'How the Teacher Bhagavat became Abhisa.mbuddha' has some more material. Lance Cousins -- 35 Burlington Rd, Withington, MANCHESTER, UK, M20 4QA Telephone (UK): 061 434 3646 (International) +44 61 434 3646 Fax (UK): 061 275 3613 (International) +44 61 275 3613 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 17:11:57 EST From: GARY RAY Subject: QUERY -> Do any of you digital dharma net surfers know where the Asian Classic -> Inputting Project's massive CD_ROM worth of transliterated Tibetan te -> lies a'lurking on the net? -> -> I'm writing an article for Wired magazine (I wanted to profile Hayes, -> they said the love-handles were a bit much for such a young and brass -> magazine), and my web searches have proved unsuccessful. You can find the completed texts and artwork at the Coombsarchive in Australia: FTP to: coombs.anu.edu.au coombspapers/otherarchives and I believe they're in the asian-studies-archive under Tibetan. You can also find the completed texts, unfinished texts and the artwork on the Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network (510) 268-0102 - a dial-up BBS. -- Gary Gary L. Ray (gary.ray@tigerteam.org) | Modem: 510-268-0102 Information Manager | Fax: 510-849-2158 Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network | Voice: 510-540-6565 "America's Buddhist Online Service" | Berkeley, CA U.S.A. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 08:20:03 EST From: "JEFFREY R. MATHEWS" Subject: Western worldview and Buddhism As a student at Colgate University, I was recently required to write a paper for my Tibetan Culture course. You will all be pleased to know that it is finished, and, as I assured my professor, of course it is brilliant. One day while discussing what our paper topics would be and how we might find sources, etc., for this paper a classmate of mine said that she would spend some time on Buddha-L, generating some discussion and perhaps getting some good advice on her topic to boot. So even though I have already completed my paper, it was on a subject that still interests me, and I decided to throw my paper topic out here and see what came up. So to the point; I wrote about the doctrine of Emptiness, and how this idea fits into Western philosophy. The reason, I thought, that many Westerne rs find this part, and other aspects of Buddhism, so confusing is because the World-view represented by the religion is so very opposite our own (what with our culture's background being people like Plato and Descartes, even Freud). I also thought that the assumptions made by Plato and Descartes about the nature of reality, what I am calling their world-view, were not made -- or made in smaller degree -- by more recent philosophers like Martin Buber or Catherine Keller (Keller's book "From a Broken Web" seems reflect eerily the Middle-Way school of Buddhism). I just thought that I might throw that out there and see what I stirred up. Anything anybody might have to say would be helpful. I would also like to apologize for the vagueness and generality of this, but as Tibetan Buddhism is something that I have only recently started to learn about, I am doing the best I can. "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." -- Sigmund Freud Jeff Mathews Colgate University JMATHEWS@CENTER.COLGATE.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 08:23:17 EST From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: Congregationalism Richard Hayes (Jesus, I'm sorry I mispelled your name!) said that congregationalism is built into the mind-set of people in a democratic society and the old-fashioned "patriarchal" method of transmitting authority can never work in our society. He may be right. Time will tell. But that doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't solve the problem to say "We are democratic and can never change." Because the problem is that enlightenment has to be taught by somebody who is enlightened. That's the idea of there having been a Buddha. I'm not saying that only students of enlightened people will ever gain realization. But in the long run the system of Buddhism will not work unless the wisest are in a position to transmit their wisdom to the less wise. There is something inherently hierarchical about this kind of study. Can the democratic process support that element of hierarchy? I'm not so sure. Let's say, for example, that a certain Zen temple has a highly realized Roshi. He is the teacher and around him are several hundred students. THey are his students because he is wiser than them. Now for some reason, perhaps he has lung cancer, it becomes necessar to choose a new Roshi. Who is more likely to be a good judge? Who can best decide which of the disciples will be the most qualified? The old Roshi or a committee of democratically chosen students? This is not to say that the realized Roshi will inevitably make the best choice. As a matter of fact, I think I've seen several cases where the wisest man made a bad choice or an unsuccessful choice. But still the wisest person is more likely to do it right than a bunch of less discriminating students. Historically democracies do not have a very good record when it comes to finding and rewarding the wise. Democracies are good at defending the rights of the masses. But they do not choose wise teachers. Look at what a democracy did to Socrates? Look at how many great Buddhist teachers have been socially unacceptable and controversial for most of their lives. Enlightened people are like artists. The masses do not choose the best living artists and they are not very good at choosing the best spiritual masters. Robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 08:24:31 EST From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Emotion [retitled by ed.] " May I kindly suggest here that if compassion is not an example of an emotive state, what, then, is it?" Honestly, I don't think compassion is an emotion. It is supposed to be a result of the destruction of ego. Well, I think of ego as necessary to emotions. Compassion is a state of consciousness, but it's not like affection or aggression or the other emotions. It's not the same genre of experience. That's why the Mahaayaaaaana texts talk about "non-dual compassion." Robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 08:25:13 EST From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Cakrasamvara at Harvard. A friend locked in an intramural mail program asks: "I just heard that there is a graduate student at Harvard translating a Cakrasamvara Root Tantra for his or her dissertation. Can anybody find him or her for me?" Robin Krnman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 14:11:09 EST From: Richard Philip Hayes Subject: In praise of congregational Buddhism Robin Kornman, in his portrayal of spiritual virtuosity as akin to artistic genius, observes (rightly, I think) that democratic procedures are not very good at selecting for wisdom and virtuosity. >From this observation he seems to want to conclude that a democratic congregationalist model of selecting a master or guru would be better suited at selecting for spiritual mediocrity than for excellence. I hope I have drawn approximately the right conclusions from Robin's message. Robin and I have had many a public debate about this topic before, and I'm not eager to enter the lists again. So I will try to state my position once more, let Robin have the last word if he wants to, and leave it at that. When I have argued in favour of a congregationalist model for running American Buddhist societies and centres, I have not been primarily interested in the question of how one selects a good teacher. Rather, I have been interested in how a society might protect itself from, and, in extreme cases, get rid of teachers who start out good and turn bad. My resistance to the `President for Life' model stems from two considerations: 1) Spiritual masters do not necessarily make good presidents, and 2) spiritual virtuosity is not a monolothic and permanent feature of people who have it. Let me take up these two points in tandem. 1. Spiritual masters do not necessarily make good presidents. Being the director or manager or president of an institution requires a set of skills. And skills tend to be very modular in nature. We all know that people who are very good at playing music may be verbally inarticulate; good writers are not necessarily good speakers and vice versa; brilliant lecturers may never write a decent article; talented sculptors can be terrible cooks; great scholars often make horrible deans; and few deans are very good at scat-singing. The list of such examples of the modularity of genius is endless. In Asia, monastic society reflects this modularity. Some monks are mostly administrators, others are cooks, others teachers, and still others meditators. All are necessary, but no one can do everything. Among the teachers, some are vinaya masters, others meditation masters, and still others dharma or abhidharma expositors. This was true in the Buddhist sangha during the Buddha's lifetime. The Buddha recognized very clearly that not everyone is equally good at doing all things. Probably he himself was not good at everything. Zen organizations in North American sometimes forget that a Zen master is, after all, nothing but a meditation teacher, a dhyaana acaarya. This is a skill, and it is one that is sufficiently important that a dharma centre may be well advised to have a good meditation teacher or two on hand. The Zen centres that have had the most difficulty, it seems to me, are those that have forgotten that 1) a meditation teacher is just a meditation teacher, and 2) an institution requires much more for its survival than people skilled in meditation. A Buddhist institution, like any other instituion, if it reaches a size larger than about ten people, becomes an organism that needs specialized organs to carry out particular functions. 2. Spiritual virtuosity is not a monolothic and permanent feature of people who have it. Because people are modular, and because virtue and wisdom and compassion are acquired skills, people cannot necessarily hold on to their attainments. There is no area in life in which acquired skills are permanent. Why should being `enlightened' be any different from being an Olympic gold-medalist, a concert violinist or any other kind of virtuoso? Being `enlightened' does not provide immunization against the destructive forces of life. If self-proclaimed `enlightened' (that's what the Buddha was, after all) or `discovered' teachers (such as sprul sku) start to drink alcohol, they run the same risk of getting liver diseases as everyone else. If they become sexually careless, intemperate, gluttonous, dissolute, immodest and undisciplined, they lose their virtuosity and their skill and their wisdom just as quickly as an athlete or writer or artist or musician or university professor does. And when they lose their skills, it may be time to find a way to ease them out of the picture, before they take a lot of other people down with them. Most of the tragedy of American institutional Buddhism has stemmed from a failure to come to terms with the problem of dealing with good gurus who let themselves turn bad. As with most other forms of tragedy, the first response tends to be denial. Denial takes many forms. One form of denial is casuistry. One example of that is calling the dissolution a euphemistic name, such as crazy enlightenment or some such thing. This kind of romanticism may be a way of refusing to deal with the brute fact that a teacher is displaying a lot more craziness than enlightenment. There are, I think, two ways around these institutional problems. One way is to build a mechanism into an organism that allows the society to rid itself of a dysfunctional organ. If the guru stops acting like a guru, then the society should have a way of making her or him an ex-guru. Just as there are fifty ways to leave your lover, there are fifty ways of getting rid of a bad guru. I don't insist on any one method as the best one. I do insist, however, that a religious institution must have a way of disposing of officers who fail to perform the duties of their office. This, I take it, is part of what is understood as the congregational model. There are religious organizations that resist that model. It does not bother me that such organizations exist, so long as it does not bother them that I refuse to have any part of them. A second way of avoiding problems is to avoid institutionalization altogether. It is possible for people to provide one another with guidance and encouragement and support and nurturing without organizing into a large formal structure. In the practice of meditation, I myself have returned to the ultra-congregationalist model of the Society of Friends (Quakers) that I came to know as a young man. By limiting the size of a group to five to ten people and meeting in someone's home and having no overhead expenses of any kind, virtually all adminstrative clutter is eliminated, and the group can devote 100% of its time together just meditating and, when it seems necessary for some reason, discussing ideas. It's amazing how much five to ten people can offer one another. Even when not a single one of them is `enlightened' (whatever the hell that means), they may be able to provide one another more help along the path than any one guru could ever give them. While I agree with Robin that we imperfect beings need help from others, there's nothing that says we have to get everything good from a single source. Now, I only wish I had the courage to start up a Quaker Buddhist university. I'd love to flush all the buildings, computer labs, audiovisual equipment, deans, fundraisers, secretaries and janitors down the oubliette, and just talk philosophy with or teach Sanskrit to anyone who would bring me a baguette or a package of ramen now and then. Any takers? Richard P. Hayes Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 14:13:00 EST From: Erik Davis Subject: Re: Western worldview and Buddhism [__]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ \ / ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[__] [] Erik Davis (oo) Cernunnos sez (cribbing the Fall): The only [] [] erikd@panix.com __ thing real is waking and rubbing your eyes. [] [__]==================== ww ==============================================[__] On Sat, 23 Apr 1994, JEFFREY R. MATHEWS wrote: > So to the point; I wrote about the doctrine of Emptiness, and how this > idea fits into Western philosophy. The reason, I thought, that many Westerne > rs > find this part, and other aspects of Buddhism, so confusing is because the > World-view represented by the religion is so very opposite our own (what with > our culture's background being people like Plato and Descartes, even Freud). > I also thought that the assumptions made by Plato and Descartes about the nature > of reality, what I am calling their world-view, were not made -- or made in > smaller degree -- by more recent philosophers like Martin Buber or Catherine > Keller (Keller's book "From a Broken Web" seems reflect eerily the Middle-Way > school of Buddhism). (WARNING: The following is an Untrained Thinker's speculations) One way to weave Buddhist thought into Western philosophical concerns (and to do so we must acknowledge that we are not showing static similarities bequeathed to all humanity by the universal categories of thought, but rather contextual moves within cultural/philosophical streams that remain irreducible to one another) is through the problem of nihilism. The Japanese philosopher Nishitani Keiji argues that the strain of philosophical nihilism initiated by Nietzsche (and carried on today in various post-structularist guises) in a sense lead us to the brink of emptiness, to the ultimate groundlessness of thought and being in the world. One could say that the "transsvaluation of all values" that Nietzsche called for once the nihilistic destruction of Platonic and/or Christian thought had been completed has some relationship with the "direct perception of emptiness," beyond which the world remains what it is (samsara is nirvana), in its immanent contingency, yet thoroughly transformed. Those who equate nihilism with pessimism miss this crucial turn, in Nietzsche and many of the thinkers who followed him. Scholars like Robert Thurman have also pointed out the similarities between Nagarjuna's hardass critical Madhyamika thought and various strategies employed by Wittgenstein. But once again, one of the primary differences it seems is that Nagarjuna is still employing his razor-sharp nihilistic method within the context of Buddhist practice and its overall soteriological goals, while the Western nihilistic project of Nietzsche et al or Wittgentstein's destruction of private knowledge has very complex and unclear relationship with such practical transformative goals. A question for those scholar who have devoted themselves to the byways of traditional Buddhist philosophy: do you feel that you are merely acting as historians of philosophy, or do you see madhyamkia or yogacaara has "having something to say" regarding contemporary philosophy--which between cognitive science (philosophy as hand-maiden to the Digital Science God) and post-structuralist excess, is having a rough time of it institutionally? Or do you feel that tearing the translated terms and arguments of Nagarjuna or Asanga from their cultural and religious contexts to toss them into the fray of the "crisis in thought" is just pointless, vague, or bad manners? Jus' wonderin' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 14:14:32 EST From: "Peter D. Junger" Subject: Re: Congregationalism Robin Kornman writes: >Richard Hayes (Jesus, I'm sorry I mispelled your name!) said that >congregationalism is built into the mind-set of people in a democratic >society and the old-fashioned "patriarchal" method of transmitting >authority can never work in our society. > >He may be right. Time will tell. But that doesn't solve the problem. It >doesn't solve the problem to say "We are democratic and can never change." >Because the problem is that enlightenment has to be taught by somebody >who is enlightened. That's the idea of there having been a Buddha. I'm >not saying that only students of enlightened people will ever gain >realization. But in the long run the system of Buddhism will not work >unless the wisest are in a position to transmit their wisdom to the less >wise. There is something inherently hierarchical about this kind of >study. I am afraid that Hayes and Kornman are talking past each other. There is a very real distinction, at least in the reality that is conditioned, between the transmission of the teachings and the institutional arrangements that are intended to facilitate that transmission. Congregationalism is not a theological position--it is merely one of the possible forms for organizing a church. (At least that was the conclusion that I came to while practicing law in New York State; Baptist churches are, for example, incorporated under the provisions of the Religious Corporations Law relating to Congregational Churches.) The key point of the Congregationalist form of organization is that the congregation (which is composed of "householders" as we would say) owns the church building, if the church is rich enough to have a building, and calls the minister and pays his stipend; a secondary point is that the congregation usually acts through an elected board of directors (usually called trustees) and officers elected by the trustees. But it is not the congregation that certifies who is qualified to be a minister or ordains ministers. (Exactly how one becomes a member of the pool of ministers eligible to be called by the congregation is a mystery to me; it probably varies from denomination to denomination.) Thus it would be quite possible for a Buddhist temple to be congregationalist in form and yet to limit those who can be called as ministers (priests, roshis, or whatever one wants to call them) to those who have been ordained (or have received a transmission or empowerment) within a certain lineage or tradition. Isn't the Buddhist teacher in the Zen and Tibetan traditions more like a rabbi than a protestant minister or priest? And aren't synagoges traditionally organized along congregationalist lines? (All I know about this comes from reading On ___ The Rabbi ______ books.) It seems to me that what is going to be different about North American Buddhism, if it should ever appear, is that congregations are going to have to be part of it, and important part of it. That that does not mean that there are not also going to be monastic and educational instiutions that prepare and certify the ministers who serve the congregation. > Can the democratic process support that element of hierarchy? >I'm not so sure. Let's say, for example, that a certain Zen temple has >a highly realized Roshi. He is the teacher and around him are several >hundred students. THey are his students because he is wiser than them. >Now for some reason, perhaps he has lung cancer, it becomes necessar to >choose a new Roshi. Who is more likely to be a good judge? Who >can best decide which of the disciples will be the most qualified? The >old Roshi or a committee of democratically chosen students? Once the Roshi dies the students are likely to disperse anyway. The Roshi can name a dharma-heir, but he cannot pass his students on to his heir nor can he pass on his charisma. As to the Roshi's position in a temple in say Japan, that is also something that he cannot usually hand over to his successor. If the Roshi is also an abbot, the new abbot will be selected by non-democratic means, but that does not mean that abbots are allowed to name their successors. One may or may not need a hierarchy to transmit the dharma. (The Sangha established by the historical Buddha has never struck me as being very heirarchical.) It is a totally separate question whether one needs a heirarchy to control and transmit the wealth and secular power of institutional Buddhism. (Since few Buddhist institutions in North America are wealthy or powerful, the latter issue may not seem important at this time; I suspect, however, that it will have to be resolved before the Buddha Dharma can become naturalized there.) > This is not to say that the realized Roshi will inevitably make the >best choice. As a matter of fact, I think I've seen several cases where >the wisest man made a bad choice or an unsuccessful choice. But still >the wisest person is more likely to do it right than a bunch of less >discriminating students. > Historically democracies do not have a very good record when it comes >to finding and rewarding the wise. Democracies are good at defending the >rights of the masses. But they do not choose wise teachers. Look at >what a democracy did to Socrates? No form of government has a very good record when it comes to finding and rewarding the wise. But democracy was after all part of the causes and conditions that produced Socrates. And aren't the Sakyas believed to have had a republican--if not democratic--form of government? > Look at how many great Buddhist teachers have been socially unacceptable >and controversial for most of their lives. Enlightened people are like >artists. The masses do not choose the best living artists and they are not >very good at choosing the best spiritual masters. Still the masses may do a better job than dictators--vide Hitler. Peter D. Junger Case Western Reserve University Law School, Cleveland, OH Internet: JUNGER@SAMSARA.LAW.CWRU.Edu -- Bitnet: JUNGER@CWRU ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 14:14:59 EST From: Nobuyoshi Yamabe Subject: Akani.s.tha Re: Enlightenment in Akani.s.tha. According to the Da"sabhuumika, a bodhisattva of the tenth bhuumi often becomes Mahe"svara ([who resides in the Akani.s.tha realm of the pure abodes]; iya.m bho jinaputra bodhisattvasya dharma-meghaa naama da"samii bodhisattva-bhuumi.h samaasa-nirde"sata.h | vistara"sa.h punar . . . | yasyaa.m prati.s.thito bodhisattvo bhuuyastvena Mahe"svaro bhavati deva-raaja.h | Kondo 199.2-5). The *Mahaayaanaavataara (T32:46b-47c) develops this statement and says that the merits of the tenth bhuumi do not belong to the kaama-dhaatu, and therefore one cannot become a Buddha in Jambuu-dviipa. The real enlightenment takes place in the pure abodes; the enlightenment under the bodhi tree is just manifestation. On the other hand, according to the Abhidharmako"sabhaa.sya (ad AK 6.37-38), some of the anaagamins are eventually reborn in Akani.s.tha and become arhats there. This may be (at least indirectly) related to the enlightenment of the Buddha in the Akani.s.tha realm. Please also see Lamotte, Le Traite 1:519 (but there, "the bodhisattvas of ten bhuumis" [des Bodhisattva des dix terres] should be read as "the bodhisattvas of the tenth bhuumi"). I hope this is of some help. Nobuyoshi Yamabe ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 22 Apr 1994 to 23 Apr 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Sun Apr 24 16:12:28 1994 Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 16:06:02 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 23 Apr 1994 to 24 Apr 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 17 messages totalling 625 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. In praise of congregational Buddhism (4) 2. Western worldview and Buddhism (3) 3. From Aviici to Akani.s.tha 4. Does a trantle have BUDDHA-L nature? 5. Protestant Buddhisms (2) 6. Emotion 7. Cakrasamvara at Harvard. 8. Lotus Sutra 9. Chinese Buddhist Revival 10. Follow the leader 11. Nagoya Zen Revival ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 16:10:03 EST From: Emilie Tien Hsu Subject: Re: In praise of congregational Buddhism I thought that "enlightenment" is the path of no-return, am I right or maybe I missed something? There indeed have been cases of roshis who lost control of some of their behaviors and got rejected by their saghas... But I have always had questions about that: So were they enlightened? Or is the "enlightenment" not really the path of no-return? Emilie Hsu Columbia University eth5@columbia.edu. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 16:11:10 EST From: Emilie Tien Hsu Subject: Re: Western worldview and Buddhism There is also the possibility of comparing Leibniz and Spinoza with Hua-yen Buddhism. That is what I am working on right now. Hua-yen seems to be neglected by Western scholars, why? Just like Spinoza, Leibniz, Conway, and the Cambridge Platonists are neglected by American College Philosophy professors, why? Emilie Hsu Columbia University eth5@columbia.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 16:41:04 EST From: Nobumi Iyanaga Subject: Re: From Aviici to Akani.s.tha I'm sorry, I do not know anything about the period one is supposed to spend in Aviici. About buddhist hell(s), however, you can find many references in Etienne Lamotte, _Le Traite de la Grande Vertu de Sagesse_, II, Louvain, reimpression 1967, p. 955-968, especially p. 955-957, note 2. >Question 3 Does anyone know of any other accounts of enlightenment specifically >in the Akani.s.tha realm (apart from the La"nkaavataara, Tattvasa.mgraha >and Yoga-Tantras)? I was very interested by your citation of Kamala"siila, which I didn't know. The rebirth of the tenth bhuumi bodhisattva in the Akani.s.tha is a relatively well-known dogma in the Mahaayaana buddhism; it can be traced back up to the Da'sabhuumika (ed. Rahder, 94.20-95.6). I studied this problem in my article "Daijizaiten (Mahe'svara)", in Hooboogirin, VI, p. 739b-747b (Tokyo, Paris, 1983). The expression "Palace of the Great Lord" (what is the original ? "Mahe'svara-bhuvana" or "Mahe'svara-aayatana"...?), in the text you cited, is interesting, because the "Great Lord" in question is Mahe'svara, i.e. 'Siva of the hinduism... Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo Japan (n-iyanag@win.or.jp or GGA03414@niftyserve.or.jp) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 16:52:28 EST From: Richard Philip Hayes Subject: Does a trantle have BUDDHA-L nature? Several people have written recently to inquire about what this list is supposed to be about. It has been some time since this information was posted. Here is a revised version of a message that has gone out before. BUDDHA-L was founded in order to provide a forum for academic Buddhologists (professors, graduate students and librarians who have a professional focus on the study of Buddhism). The hope when the list was founded was that it might be somewhat like RELIGION or INDOLOGY, where the messages are relatively infrequent, usually informative and always of professional interest. There also exists a list called BUDDHIST, which is an ideal venue for practitioners to compare notes on their practices. Many of the scholars who would like to talk shop on BUDDHA-L are themselves Buddhists who like to discuss practice. Many of these people also subscribe to BUDDHIST, so the latter is a good place for scholars and practitioners to learn from one another. For those of you who would be interested in BUDDHIST, the address to which subscription commands are to be sent for automated attention is LISTSERV@JPNTUVM0.BITNET. It is our hope that BUDDHA-L itself will be allowed to be what it was originally intended to be: a forum for professional students of the languages, doctrines, practices, literary and performing arts and the peoples that are associated with Buddhism. Of course non-Buddhologists are also most welcome to subscribe to BUDDHA-L, but they should be warned that much of the discussion may be fairly technical and may well lie outside the range of interests of non-specialists. In order to help people keep the purposes of BUDDHA-L distinct from those of BUDDHIST, we shall post a brief reminder periodically. For the time being, please remember: If your principal audience is the people who frequent zendos, dharma centers, chortens, and churches, post to BUDDHIST@JPNTUVM0.BITNET If your principal audience is the people who attend the AAR, the AOS, the AAS and the IABS, post to BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Virtually yours, The BUDDHA-L Management Jim Cocks Senior Consultant Research/Instruction University of Louisville Richard Hayes Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 16:57:38 EST From: B Bocking Subject: Protestant Buddhisms My original question was: "Is the term 'protestant Buddhism' useful, and if so in what contexts?" My thanks to all who have joined in on this topic. Some very interesting examples have been given of Buddhism in the West being adapted in a way which Niehbuhr would have described as 'sectarian protestant' (e.g. decisions at local level; the teacher elected or his status qualified by democratic considerations; drift towards 'protestant' style services, etc. Perhaps we could come back to 'Catholic' Zen when we've sorted out 'protestant' Buddhism!). Agreed, this is part of the debate about *all* religions adopted in the modern West; it's also a subset of all debates about syncretism/synthesis etc. But this is BUDDHA-L, not THREE-RELIGIONS-L.... (Hmm... why?) The point about the term 'protestant' being a provocative term in a negative sense is well taken. However, its use also clearly provokes debate, partly because, as Jan Nattier points out, "some of the strongest defenders of what can be called "Protestant" forms of Buddhism, in both of these camps [Buddhist reformers and Western converts], are the most reluctant to see the Protestant content (or better, framework) of their position. Hence, I suspect, some of the objections to the term." ****<>**** Can I now push the debate forward by picking up a few points: Lance Cousins refers to "the somewhat chameleon-like quality of the term Protestant. ... this was applied ... to: Soka Gakkai, Nichiren, Shin, developments in Ceylon (Dharmapaala, etc.), early German Buddhists, Mongkut in Thailand, Mindon in Burma, present-day British Buddhists, various Chinese and Vietnamese developments and to the Tibetan Rime movement." and he asks: "Should we really adopt a term that prejudges the issue before the scholarship has been taken very far? I suspect that some at least of the claimed Protestant tendencies will prove to derive from long-standing native tendencies." My FIRST question therefore is: can anyone provide *examples* of such long-standing 'native tendencies'? Richard Hayes meanwhile hazards (if that's the word we want) the view that "`Protestantism' is a term that has a fairly precise historical meaning within Christianity, where it is associated with the very specific doctrines of sola scriptura, sola fides and ad fontes..." *[BB comments: And with the use of the vernacular, your holiness]*. and he continues "...There is probably not any Buddhist movement that insists that 1) scriptures alone (as opposed to traditional evolutions of ideas in the scriptures) are authoritative, and 2) only faith (as opposed to good works) are effective in achieving the highest good, and 3) the purest form of the religion is to be found at the historical source (ad fontes), and the further one gets from that source, the more corrupt the religion becomes. ... To be sure, there are counterparts to each of these classically Protestant ideas in the long history of Buddhism, but to be quite parallel to Protestant Christians, Protestant Buddhists would have to adhere to all three." My SECOND question therefore is: can anyone provide *examples* of such 'counterparts to these classically protestant ideas in Buddhism' (especially, unlikely though it has been deemed, of *all three together*). Or we can always quibble with the unhelpfully narrow and defensive definition of 'protestant'. Try defining 'Buddhist'. [On second thoughts, don't try defining BUDDHIST, except on HELL-L which has been set up for that kind of thing] Moving on, John Dunne says: "It seems far more likely that the construction of a `Protestant' identity in British society during the colonial period relies as much upon the contributions of Asian societies as it does upon the internal workings of British society." So my THIRD question is: can anyone provide *examples* of Asian, - specifically Buddhist - contributions to the construction of a 'Protestant' identity during the colonial period? Brian Bocking PS re Soka Gakkai: did it jump or was it pushed? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 07:24:38 EST From: Erik Davis Subject: Re: In praise of congregational Buddhism [__]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ \ / ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[__] [] Erik Davis (oo) Cernunnos sez (cribbing the Fall): The only [] [] erikd@panix.com __ thing real is waking and rubbing your eyes. [] [__]==================== ww ==============================================[__] My main man Hayes made the following point: > Being `enlightened' does not provide immunization against the > destructive forces of life. If self-proclaimed `enlightened' (that's > what the Buddha was, after all) or `discovered' teachers (such as > sprul sku) start to drink alcohol, they run the same risk of getting > liver diseases as everyone else. If they become sexually careless, > intemperate, gluttonous, dissolute, immodest and undisciplined, they > lose their virtuosity and their skill and their wisdom just as > quickly as an athlete or writer or artist or musician or university > professor does. And when they lose their skills, it may be time to > find a way to ease them out of the picture, before they take a lot > of other people down with them. > The point could be made as well that the enlightened individual does not backslide, their enlightened understanding cannot penetrate the instiution that surrounds and mediates their enlightenment. For example, let's that Satya Sai Baba is fully, completely enlightened (whatever that means), a perfect being, etc. But as soon as Satya Sai Baba settles down in an institution, there is an institutional logic which begins to congeal around him: the politics of followers over rank, the manipulation of the outer circle by the inner circle, and the usual shit about money, etc. The institution mediates Sai Baba's total enlightenment, and in doing so can actually become even twisted than a run-of-the-mill institution--which most people accept as inherently flawed--because it has the illusroy vaneer of being above politics, when in fact its politics are energized by the unquestionable powers that enlightenment generates. OF course this problem is greater when the culture that surrounds the institution is not prepared for its transplanted mode of mediation. Perhaps our "fate" as Westerners touched by traditions with profoundly undemocratic elements is to be forced to live and operate between paradigms, with no satisfaction guaranteed. I applaud the Soceity of friends approach for this reason--the aim is to produce a group entelechy while avoiding institutional logic as much as possible--it's the underground cell, even the witch's coven. In fact, Richard "Isaac" Hayes' other suggestion--that the democratic struture of an institution allow it to have power over gurus who may or may not sliop--to my mind doesn't work. We cannot know how a guru is from his or her behavior. To judge the lack of validity of a "crazy wisdom" style from the outset seems a symptom of the (to me) mistaken belief that we can know what enlightened or realized behavior would mean from the outset. Perhaps the most we can say is "this no longer works for me." Perhaps the smash-up of "geniuine" enlightened energy and deep Western structures (not to say that the West doesnt have its own alchemical enlightenemnts, but that's another story) IS craziness. Perhaps Trungpa was enacting the only possible relationship between his "authentic" mode of wisdom and the parameters of the West at that time. The moment the guru leaves the cave, even total enlightment remains subject--in its effects--to the monstrous inirtia of history. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 07:25:17 EST From: John Dunne Subject: Re: Emotion Dharmakiirti, who seems to think that compassion is the Buddha's most important quality, says that compassion is `raaga,' one of the words used for the kle"sa `attachment.' Sounds like an emotion to me ... John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 07:26:08 EST From: John Dunne Subject: Re: Cakrasamvara at Harvard. Robin Brooks Kornman wrote: > A friend locked in an intramural mail program asks: > > "I just heard that there is a graduate student at Harvard > translating a Cakrasamvara Root Tantra for his or her dissertation. > Can anybody find him or her for me?" > That grad student is now a professor at the University of Virginia at Richmond. Her name is Miranda Shaw, and her book will on women in tantric Buddhism will be released by Princeton University Press at the end of ths month. I am not sure if she worked on the whole root tantra or not. John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 07:27:17 EST From: Andre Vellino Subject: Lotus Sutra I bought a copy of Burton Watson's translation of "The Lotus Sutra" on impulse today and I wanted to check with the gurus on this list whether it was an authoritative translation. Anyone care to comment? Andre' Vellino vellino@bnr.ca -- Andre' Vellino an386@freenet.carleton.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 07:28:21 EST From: deeg@midway.uchicago.edu Subject: Chinese Buddhist Revival I am looking for reading materials in English on the nature and status of Buddhism in China today. In particular, the nature of Buddhist revival after the cultural revolution. I would appreciate very much your suggestions of reading materials on Chinese Buddhist revival. Mahinda Deegalle History of Religions, University of Chicago deeg@midway.uchicago.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 07:29:00 EST From: L S Cousins Subject: Re: Protestant Buddhisms B Bocking writes: > My FIRST question therefore is: can anyone provide *examples* of such > long-standing 'native tendencies'? For Southern Buddhism reformist tendencies may go back to the Siiha.la- sangha and the various introductions of different nikaayas between Ceylon and South-East Asia, perhaps even to Paraakramabaahu in the twelfth century or Vijayabaahu before that. Even perhaps to the First Schism in the Buddhist Sangha. At the moment we don't really know enough about many of these developments to be completely sure exactly what was going on. L.S. Cousins -- 35 Burlington Rd, Withington, MANCHESTER, UK, M20 4QA Telephone (UK): 061 434 3646 (International) +44 61 434 3646 Fax (UK): 061 275 3613 (International) +44 61 275 3613 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 07:31:39 EST From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: In praise of congregational Buddhism Richard Hayes and I have had this discussion before, but I don't think that we have to obsessively repeat the old points this time. I think that there is room for genuine progress in the debate. I, for one, have changed my opinions over the years. There was a time when I felt that congregational buddhism was a bastardization of the Asian tradition. Now I realize that the tradition is more various and complicated than my original ideals. I don't mind so much there being Zen monasteries which basically elect their Roshis. I've seen that in many cases Tibetan monastic centers have chosen their leaders through aristocratic and oligarchic systems of power transferral,which is the Asian equivalent of the democratic system we value in America. My point was not that congregationalism is bad, but that if we are to have the congregation choose its leaders, what will we do about the problem this creates in terms of the transferral of spiritual authority? I believe Mr. Junger's reply addresses that issue very well: "The key point of the Congregationalist form of organization is that the congregation (which is composed of "householders" as we would say) owns the church building, if the church is rich enough to have a building, and calls the minister and pays his stipend; a secondary point is that the congregation usually acts through an elected board of directors (usually called trustees) and officers elected by the trustees. But it is not the congregation that certifies who is qualified to be a minister or ordains ministers. (Exactly how one becomes a member of the pool of ministers eligible to be called by the congregation is a mystery to me; it probably varies from denomination to denomination.)" I hadn't thought of that distinction, but it seems to be of the essence. Ministers, people who have their authority through a process such as ordination or lineal transference of certification or apostolic succession or whatever.......ministers do not have to be the administrative leaders. Each lineage and church has its way of choosing its wisdom holders, its holy people, its priests and ministers. Who has the temporal administrative power and responsibility may be an entirely different matter. I must admit that my previous experience with protestant institutes of government has been the Princeton Divinity School. In that form of protestantis m, the council formed like a presbyter from representatives of the members of the congregation must confirm and approve those who will become ministers. Laymen actually grade the final exams of divinity students as a gesture of radical democracy. (If I understand their system correctly). But Junger's description seems to be more universal. Robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 07:33:53 EST From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: In praise of congregational Buddhism One thing Richard Hayes said that seems to me problematic has to do with the role of the spiritual teachers in Zen centers: "Zen organizations in North American sometimes forget that a Zen master is, after all, nothing but a meditation teacher, a dhyaana acaarya. This is a skill, and it is one that is sufficiently important that a dharma centre may be well advised to have a good meditation teacher or two on hand. The Zen centres that have had the most difficulty, it seems to me, are those that have forgotten that 1) a meditation teacher is just a meditation teacher, and 2) an institution requires much more for its survival than people skilled in meditation. " I don't it's logical to say that a Zen Center's chief spiritual teacher is just a specialist in meditation. The assumption is not that the chief teacher is good at doing meditation, but that he or she has realized the fruits of meditation. Otherwise, the whole process of spiritual training would be circular. The aim of the training is not to make one a virtuoso in meditation practice, but to make one wise. Otherwise there would be no point in the training. This can be seen in the ritualized examinations given to chief priests. They are not tests of their ability to meditate, but of their comprehension of the nature of reality. Of course, as so many of us have experienced, the monastic institution and the meditation center can outlive their wise teachers. And often you've got to run the center without a wise leader of any sort. In that case, perhaps we must indeed make the chief priest or whatever a specialist in meditation instruction. But that is a compromise that one attempts, at least in principle, to avoid. Let me tell you what I've actually seen in Tibetan centers. When the center has a wise person in residence that person is not the chief meditation instructor, but rather the chief teacher and spiritual advisor. The meditation practices are often so complicated that you need a specialist to give the instruction. The wise man may test the practitioners and give lectures on the nature and meaning of the practice. And he may give certain essential instructions. But most of the formation of the students in contemplative practice is given by assistants and ritual masters and pandits and the like. What one wants in the chief spiritual teacher is a model and example of realization. ANd a person who possesses some kind of authority to confirm people's spiritual accomplishments. How that person is chosen is the tricky question. Robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 07:37:40 EST From: Paul Swanson Subject: Re: Western worldview and Buddhism I'm curious...why do you think Hua-yen is neglected by Western scholars? There's lots of work, including many major books, on Hua-yen, certainly much more than on T'ien-t'ai, a much more important topic (cough, cough). I don't think Hua-yen has been neglected. Do others think Hua-yen is neglected? Paul Swanson, Nanzan Institute for Religion and Culture, Nagoya, Japan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 09:39:04 EST From: Richard Philip Hayes Subject: Follow the leader Although Robin's resistance to the notion of congregational Buddhism has waned over the years, he still claims to be worried about how an institution can go about choosing a leader who exemplifies virtue and embodies wisdom. A common method of choosing a minister used by Protestant congregations is to set up a search committee, very much like an academic search committee, which gives thought to what sort of person they would ideally like to find and decides upon a set of criteria of selection. An opening is advertised, people apply, a short list is drawn up, several candidates are interviewed, and finally an offer of employment is made to the candidate that the search committee deems most suitable. All kinds of factors are weighed in the decision-making process, as in an academic appointment. Many congregations these days hire two or more part-time ministers: one to give sermons on Sundays and perhaps lead a few seminars during the week, another to do pastoral duties such as visiting the sick and dying and counselling people with personal problems. (I know of one Theravada community in Canada that chooses its resident monks by a similar procedure. Do others among you know of similar patterns among Asian Buddhists living outside Asia?) In contrast to the congregational model, the Quaker model is of course completely informal, since there are no formal offices to fill. A Quaker meeting has no minister. There are often people (usually older people who have much experience in silent prayer and in life) who have the qualities of leadership, and people who need leaders may follow them in various ways, but no one is ever formally designated a leader. The procedure is as simple, and as complex, as making a friend or emulating a role model. Of course, if a Quaker community ever becomes foolish enough to become the owner of corporate property, such as a meeting house, then it must choose a clerk who has the power to sign legal documents on behalf of the congregation, and it may choose a Resident Friend, who serves as caretaker of the building. (When this happens to a Quaker meeting, it is time to leave. Nothing corrupts a religious community so quickly as having a church to maintain, just as nothing destroys a university so quickly as having a campus.) The Quakerly community is fairly similar to both the very early days of Christianity and the very early days of Buddhism after the founders of those religions had died. The Society of Friends recognize no leader but the Holy Spirit. The early Buddhist sangha had no leader but the dharma. Once you abandon the presupposition that a group of people need a single official leader, the problems of how to go about choosing a person to fill the office of leader pretty well vanish. Then people are free to tend to other problems, such as how to live their own lives well. Richard P. Hayes Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 15:12:07 EST From: Emilie Tien Hsu Subject: Re: Western worldview and Buddhism ......Hmmm, being neglected is only a relative term...... Let's say that there is almost no dissertation on Hua-yen (so I have been told by a Harvard grad student who did some statistical investigations on all the dissertations written in the US since the beginning of the century). I am probably the only undergrad student in Columbia who is writting her senior thesis on Hua-yen, by the way, probably the only who is working on Leibniz and Spinoza too. (I don't think that there is any grad student working on Hua-yen either.) What about the lack of books on Hua-yen in our wonderful C.V Starr library? Hmmm. Hmmm. Including your book... nowhere to be found in the library... You are right, it is not THAT neglected compared to Tiendai, or something like the "mamos" in TIbetain buddhism. Emilie Hsu Columbia University Eth5@columbia.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 15:12:58 EST From: dadadharma@aol.com Subject: Nagoya Zen Revival Recently I have come across a folk tale from the city of Nagoya which may relate to the period immediately following the persecution of Buddhism by the Meiji regime. In this story, the bizarre appearance of a family of foxes in downtown Nagoya shortly after sunset is associated with the arrival of the monk Yuutoku (to have + virtue) from Echigo to conduct ordination rites (jukai no gishiki) at Hakkaku Zen Temple in Nouya-machi of the same city. I have been unable to locate the Hakkaku Zendou in *Nagoya Shiseki to Bunkazai*, which only lists surviving buildings (Nouya Machi was fire-bombed in the spring of 1945). Nor can I find the name "Yuutoku" in Buddhist biographical dictionaries. This suggests that Yuutoku, if not a fiction, was a minor cleric who remained faithful to his Bodhisattva vow at a time when others dissociated themselves from Buddhism, and was willing to undertake long journeys in order to re-establish the practice of Zen wherever he could. Or, this name is used in place of the real name of someone who would be outraged to be associated with a silly tale about foxes. Are there any books (esp. in Japanese) which discuss the revival of Zen Buddhism in the Meiji era on a local level (i.e., Nagoya and Chuubu area)? Thanks in advance, David Olson ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 23 Apr 1994 to 24 Apr 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Mon Apr 25 16:33:12 1994 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 16:01:08 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 24 Apr 1994 to 25 Apr 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 13 messages totalling 727 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. From Aviici to Akani.s.tha 2. Emotion (2) 3. Protestant Buddhisms 4. Western worldview and Buddhism (2) 5. Protestantism & Orientalism 6. Lotus Sutra 7. Nagoya Zen Revival 8. Zen authority/community (fwd) (2) 9. Mahe"svara in Akani.st.ha 10. Akani.s.tha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 17:02:44 EST From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Re: From Aviici to Akani.s.tha > The expression "Palace of the Great Lord" (what is the original ? >"Mahe'svara-bhuvana" or "Mahe'svara-aayatana"...?), in the text you cited, >is interesting, because the "Great Lord" in question is Mahe'svara, i.e. >'Siva of the hinduism... > >Nobumi Iyanaga It's Maahe'svara-bhavana. A couple of verses prior to this one on which Kamala'siila is commenting, "Saantarak.sita says (G. Jha's translation): "There can be no connection between Brahmaa (and [Vi.s.nu and "Siva, etc.]) and the Veda;-(a) Because there is difference between them, (b) because both are regarded as eternal, and (c) because there is no mutual dependence;- just as in the case of any other thing.- Thus it is absurd to talk of Brahmaa, etc. being 'empbodiments of the Veda'.- Equally absurd it is to speak of the Veda as 'consisting of all knowledge'; for the simple reason that the meaning of the Veda cannot be ascertained.- It has been explained that (for us) the Omniscient Person [i.e., Buddha] is recognized independently by Himself; and He is not assumed on the ground of Brahmaa and others being 'Embodiments of the Veda'. (3547-3549)." [square brackets my insertions] Kamala'siila explains the meaning of (a)-(c) by asserting there can only be two types of relationships between things, 'identity' or 'causal'. Identity is contradicted by (a), and causality by (b) and (c). The argument then clearly turns to repudiating the idea that Buddha is "mortal", and so begins the verses Rupert discussed (Buddha is outside the 5 gatis, Buddha becomes awakened in akani.s.tha, etc.). Seems, in the rhetorical context, they are definitely trying to displace the Hindu gods with Buddha at this juncture in their argument. Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 17:04:45 EST From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Re: Emotion >Dharmakiirti, who seems to think that compassion is the Buddha's most >important quality, says that compassion is `raaga,' one of the words >used for the kle"sa `attachment.' Sounds like an emotion to me ... > > > John Dunne > Study of Religion > Harvard University And a `desire' (contra D. Keown). Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 17:39:25 EST From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Re: Protestant Buddhisms Brian Bocking cites Richard Hayes: > "...There is probably not any Buddhist movement that >insists that 1) scriptures alone (as opposed to traditional evolutions of >ideas in the scriptures) are authoritative, and 2) only faith (as opposed >to good works) are effective in achieving the highest good, and 3) the >purest form of the religion is to be found at the historical source >(ad fontes), and the further one gets from that source, the more >corrupt the religion becomes. ... To be sure, there are counterparts to >each of these classically Protestant ideas in the long history of >Buddhism, but to be quite parallel to Protestant Christians, Protestant >Buddhists would have to adhere to all three." > >My SECOND question therefore is: can anyone provide *examples* of such >'counterparts to these classically protestant ideas in Buddhism' >(especially, unlikely though it has been deemed, of *all three together*). As to 1, the three classic distancings of Buddhism from "authoritative scripture" are Buddha's own rejection of the Vedas; Dignaaga's rejection of 'sabda-pramaa.na as a valid means of knowledge in favor of perception and inference; and the (sometimes) Ch'an/Son/Zen rejection of scripture in favor of a "transmission outside the scriptures". 2 is more complicated, since there remains a good deal of controversy about the role of faith in Buddhism, and what the term 'sraddhaa "means". If, for instance, one follows Jayatilleke's interpretation of early Buddhism, 'faith' is simply an empirical attitude one has toward a hypothesis (i.e., Buddhist claims), in order to "experiment" with it in good faith (as it were). In other words, it means little more than having an inquisitive open mind; the validity of the claims one believes must be proven in other ways; and fully accepting what remains unproven and especially unprovable is a sort of mental illness. Frank Hoffman, on the other hand, criticizes Jayatilleke and attempts to argue that 'faith' does function in early Buddhism in a way more like a Protestant notion of faith (that's not how he characterizes it, but that's how I read his gist). It's clear that faith becomes an important factor in most forms of East Asian Buddhism, partly due to attention paid to the early stage of the 10 bhuumis, partly due to the popularity of the Awakening of Faith (which begins the systematic conflation in East Asian thought between bodhicitta/cittotpaada, faith, tathagatagarbha, and [initial] awakening), and so on. On the other hand, Shinran's notion of faith may not be that far from Luther's. The question of the role or non-role of faith in (various strands of) Buddhism is much too large a topic to be handled in this sort of forum. As for 3, there is the oft repeated phrase (this is Naagaarjuna's version, MMK 18.12): sa.mbuddhaanaamanutpaade 'sraavakaa.naa.m puna.h k.saye | j~naana.m pratyekabuddhaanaam-asa.msargaat pravartate ||12 When sambuddhas don't arise, and 'sravakas have ceased, the [enlightened] cognition of pratyekabuddhas operates independently [of them]. In other words, even if a Buddha did not arise, enlightenment would still be what it is. No "historical" mooring here. Since enlightenment does not require a Buddha as a necessary cause, Buddha's moment in history is no more than a fortuitous circumstance, not a cosmic prerequisite (though other Buddhist cosmologies will see things differently). On the other hand, if one looks at the notion of the 3 turnings of the dharma-wheel in the Sa'ndhinirmocana Suutra, although it describes 3 historical periods (early Buddhism through the early Abhidharma schools; Madhyamaka; then "yogacara" or the Sa'ndhinirmocana's teachings), all three turnings are attributed to Buddha himself. It's not clear whether this is because of some idea about the necessity of proximity to Buddha's "time", i.e., historical reasons, or whether it derives more from the effort to provide a "scriptural" foundation for the claims of a new scripture (cf. 1 above). Interestingly, when Dignaaga jettisons scripture in favor of perceptual and inferential cognitions, he is closer to Yogacara than Sautraantika (the "suutra-ites"), though he was no doubt influenced by the Sautraantika repudiations of Vaibhaa.sika reliance on abhidharma canonical texts. However, while East Asia developed the notion of mappou (a degenerate dharma, increasing degeneration counted in centuries from the time of the Buddha), it arose at the same time that others like Lin-chi were saying, "If you meet a Buddha [or patriarch] on the road, kill him," along with encouragements to not treat the past and people of the past in a weighty manner: "The true man of no rank is going in and out of your face this very moment." Richard is right that the three principles of Protestantism are not found together as features in Indian Buddhism, but, I am not so sure the same can be said for some schools of Japanese Buddhism (Nichiren, Shinran, etc.). They may have been "protestant" Buddhists for quite some time. To the extent that Japanese interpretations of East Asian Buddhism have dominated international discussions and study (and influenced current developments in Taiwan and Korea), there may indeed be, by the Hayes-standard, "protestant buddhism." Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 17:56:17 EST From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Re: Western worldview and Buddhism >Let's say that there is almost no dissertation on Hua-yen (so I have been >told by a Harvard grad student who did some statistical investigations on >all the dissertations written in the US since the beginning of the >century). Emilie, take a second look for yourself. There haven't been tons, but there have been several. Robert Gimello's diss. on Chih-yen is superb, and still probably the best treatment we have in English on Chinese Buddhism in the 6th-7th centuries (will we see some version of this published someday, Robert?); Ming-wood Liu did a diss. on Fa-tsang that you may find helpful. There are others. Good luck. Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 19:11:58 EST From: Emilie Tien Hsu Subject: Re: Western worldview and Buddhism Indeed, Pr.Liu did write that article for East West philosophy, but I actually disagree on a lot of points with him. Hmmm... I did not know that just by writing that short message out of frustration, I was going to get so many responses. It is true that there are some works done Hua-yen, otherwise, my own thesis would be impossible to write--as impossible as a disseration on Tibetain mamos. Thanks to all the people who wrote back to put my feet back on the ground... maybe I was getting too obsessed already with Hua-yen, hmmm...obsession with anything is not good indeed. Maybe except compassion? (am I here again setting up another debate?) Emilie. eth5@columbia.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 05:29:53 EST From: Jan Nattier Subject: Protestantism & Orientalism In reply to the recent messages from Richard Hayes ("Methinks Protestant is too much") and John Dunne ("Protestant Buddhism"): Richard suggests that Protestantism is fairly easy to define: > it is associated with the very specific > doctrines of sola scriptura, sola fides and ad fontes. It's interesting (and probably not surprising, from a philosopher!) that Richard takes the approach of trying to identify a Protestant orthodoxy and then seeing if any form of Buddhism can be said to "line up." I'll argue below that we might equally well (or better) follow Obeyesekere, Gombrich, and others in looking not for an orthodoxy but an orthopraxy -- but more on that later. Even if we take these three characteristics as the "essence" of Protestantism, though, we may not have as much difficulty in identifying "Protestant Buddhism" as one might think. Let me recall here that Obeyesekere et al. applied the term "Protestant" *only* to certain developments within 19th-20th century Sri Lankan Theravaada Buddhism, not to the wild variety of other traditions to which this label has more recently been applied. And if we take a look at this Theravaada movement, it is not at all difficult to see a pronounced emphasis on scripture as an authoritative source (whether _sola_ or not is perhaps another matter) and on "back to the Buddha" (_ad fontes_). Even "faith alone" is not so difficult to find parallels to if we recall that for Martin Luther the opposite of faith was works, which meant above all sacraments, which required the mediation of the priesthood. If we paraphrase this item to read "the individual's unmediated relation to the ultimate," we've got a pretty good analogue of much of the rhetoric of Sri Lankan Protestant Buddhism. Which brings us back to the orthopraxy issue: As defined by Gombrich in his 1988 book _Theravada Buddhism_, "the salient characteristic of Protestant Buddhism is the enhanced importance of the laity" (p. 183). And this, surely, is one of the most striking features of the movement Obeyesekere first labeled "Protestant": the increased role of the laity, coming at the expense of the monastic authority which until recently has always been central to the Theravaada (and indeed to virtually all forms of Buddhism in all times and places). Now a move away from the centrality of the professional religious can take place for all kinds of reasons (witness Shinran's renunciation of the monastic way of life in light of his own felt spiritual weakness, interpreted in the context of the theory of _mappoo_ or the "age of the Final Dharma"). But it is surely not difficult to document in the Sri Lankan case the impact of Protestant notions. The same applies, of course, to the doctrinal issues mentioned above (see for example Steve Collins recent article "On the Very Idea of the Pali Canon" in the _Journal of the Pali Text Society_ for some helpful insights into the place of the "canon" in modern and pre-modern Theravaada). The combination of colonization by a Protestant power and the presence of Western Buddhists in Sri Lanka has had a tremendous and easily demonstrable impact on the course of modern Theravaada history in that country. I don't see any virtue in hesitating to draw cause-and-effect conclusions here. (Among the relevant references here are Kitsiri Malalgoda's _Buddhism in Sinhalese Society 1750-1900 [Berkeley, 1976] and the chapters on "Protestant Buddhism" in Gombrich's _Theravada Buddhism_ and in Gombrich and Obeyesekere's _Buddhism Transformed_. These provide ample documentation of everything from a shift to lay-centered Buddhism to an increasing emphasis on the Buddhist scriptures to the adoption of Buddhist "carols" on a clearly Protestant model.) Yes, as Lance Cousins suggests, we should also be on the lookout for other possible factors, but these should not prevent us from acknowledging the impact of a powerful Protestant presence. But John Dunne's message raises an even more intriguing issue: > `Protestant' Buddhism relies upon numerous Orientalist > assumptions, not the least of which is the malleability of Asia and the > immovablity of the West. Is it, in fact, "Orientalist" of us to describe a form of Buddhism that has patently absorbed Protestant ideas and practices as "Protestant Buddhism"? Is this in fact different from pointing to the creation of a "Buddhist Taoism" in China, when the Taoists begin to speak of stages of the path (in imitation of the Buddhist system of _bhuumi_s ) or to create a canon manifestly patterned on the Buddhist model? One hardly has to assume an immovable West, or (in the Chinese case) an immovable India, to argue for influence here. Rather, the more complex issue is this: what do we call it when Sri Lankan Buddhists, or "reformist" Hindus, or 20th-century Japanese advocates of "timeless" Zen, argue for the legitimacy of their respective traditions in terms that clearly have been borrowed from the Western Orientalist repertoire? There is a growing tide of research on this topic (see for example the papers by David Haberman on Hinduism and Robert Sharf on Zen in the current issue of _History of Religions_), pointing to a complicated set of interchanges between cultures that are well worth researching. If I remember correctly, Sharf described (in the AAR paper that was the precursor of the above- mentioned article) the Western fascination with the D. T. Suzuki brand of Zen as comparable to Narcissus falling in love with his own reflection. It's an image well worth reflecting on. -- Jan Nattier ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 05:31:19 EST From: GARY RAY Subject: Lotus Sutra -> I bought a copy of Burton Watson's translation of "The Lotus Sutra" o -> impulse today and I wanted to check with the gurus on this list wheth -> was an authoritative translation. Anyone care to comment? I recently bought a copy of the Lotus Sutra myself and passed over Watson's after comparing it with several translations. It was my first choice, since it looked very readable and attractive, but it also looked a little too "poetic" and lacked proper footnoting and references. Instead I purchased the translation by Leon Hurvitz, which I later found was preferred by most of my professors. -- Gary Gary L. Ray (gary.ray@tigerteam.org) | Modem: 510-268-0102 Information Manager | Fax: 510-849-2158 Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network | Voice: 510-540-6565 "America's Buddhist Online Service" | Berkeley, CA U.S.A. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 05:36:51 EST From: HMARAIP@usthk.ust.hk Subject: Re: Nagoya Zen Revival Books that I would consider important in a discussion of Zen in Nagoya since Meiji are: Tajima Hakudoo, __Sootooshuu Nisoo-shi__1955 __Aichi Senmon Nisoodoo Sootooshuu Kootoo Nigakurin: Rokujuunen no Ayumi__1965 These books might not be readily accessible, especially the second one. Aichi-ken has the highest concentration of Sootoo Zen nuns. They began to institutionalize their efforts in 1903. If it were next year, I might humbly include a reference to a manuscript that hopefully will be published on this topic. For now, I must just get back to the revisions of this manuscript. Good luck David Olson. I wouldn't mind learning about what you find about a Zen revival in Nagoya. Paula Arai Hong Kong University of Science & Technology (until mid-July) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 05:45:54 EST From: Hannu Markus Virtanen Subject: Zen authority/community (fwd) *************************************************************************** Here is more fuel for your discussion, Robin & co. I crossposted the first of your messages to a list dicussing on the activity theory and communication in general (the people are mainly from The University of California, San Diego and from Finland). Here is one example, what they say. (hvirtane@tukki.jyu.fi) **************************************************************************** ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 24 Apr 94 11:40:08 EDT From: Jay Lemke To: General Forum Subject: Zen authority/community One way in which exclusion serves the community is by construct- ing in the Other a double mirror for ourselves. On the one hand we can see, with difficulty, in how we have made the Other look different from ourselves, what matters to us about ourselves. This is the Other as our negative image of ourselves, seen in a tame mirror. But then we can also, with perhaps even greater dif- ficulty, learn to see how we look to the Other, and so learn to see a different self in this, for us, wild mirroring. So the congregationalist democrat sees himself, a bit, in the mirror of a, to him, buddhist autocrat. What the Zen Master sees is an attempt to separate the whole, to divide the political from the spiritual, to remain master about in what respects one will submit, and so not really to submit at all. The Western tradi- tions embrace such schizophrenias: we will have our religion mon- archical (neither Yahweh nor Jesus was much of a democrat to judge by the texts) and our politics democratic (or quasi- democratic enough to sustain/mystify the inequities of the eco- nomic relations that wrap themselves in democrats' clothing). The Hindu-Buddhist traditions, and Islam, want no part of this hypocrisy. I want to accept the invitation to compare this pattern of authority and community with that of schools, so I need to devel- op my version of the pattern a little further. The (for con- venience only) Western traditions exclude God from the human domain, so that they can have authority between God and Man, but democracy between Man and Man (I'm not excluding women, but the traditions I'm describing did). Some men however, want the authority of God, and so the older traditions (monarchi- cal/authoritarian on both counts, spiritual and political) sur- vived just enough to allow this and create a permanent conflict between church traditions and modern democratic impulses. These are the terms in which we see Eastern spiritual autocracy. We also have a cultural horror of "submission" because of our deification not so much of democracy, but of individualism (which is more central to the underlying economic project, after all). In a cultural context in which, call it "immersion," in the so- cial is normal and valued, the relations of disciple to master, like those of child to parent, are not primarily relations of in- dividual domination, but of group integration. To submit to authority, spiritual, familial, or corporate (in the anthropological sense), is to participate in a community in the fullest sense (Gemeinschaft), is to be defined by relationships, by membership which constructs us, rather than in the modernist illusion, to think we construct communities (Gesellschaft). It is not to, as individual, submit to another, as individual, but to enact a role and its role-relationships in a whole. The modernist cult of individualism is necessarily alienating from community. It is so because the destruction of community is a necessary con- dition of our economic system. Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft are not two alternative kinds of community; they are two antagonistic principles, one older and surviving, the other newer and displac- ing, for human association. So what then of schools and authority? In the school we find both a Gemeinschaft community and a Gesellschaft institution. The for- mer is unofficial, the latter official. They rarely correspond. Not in membership, not in roles, not in role-incumbents. Indeed there are often multiple, overlapping and/or conflicting true communities in the school or classroom, none of which correspond most of the time in these respects to the institutional way of looking at teachers and students (and administrators, etc.), to the Gesellschaft that is supposed to be there, or is constructed as being there in Gesellschaft terms even when it so obviously is not there as Gemeinschaft. So it happens that there are two senses of "authority" at stake: an arbitrary Gesellschaft authority vested in the institutional roles (teacher: students; principal:teachers), which is in neces- sary conflict with democratic inclinations, and for which submis- sion is always a loss of dignity as an individual. This authority functions solely in the Gesellshaft world, in external political and economic terms. It must be enforced, by force or its func- tional equivalents. It generates rebellion. It suppresses rebel- lion. It is not an image of our harmony in the Tao, of a Buddhist spiritual community, of a community of Islam (lit. submission to God). But there is a second sense of authority, the one that exists by virtue of the real Gemeinschaft communities that get partly housed in schools, and which *can* include both teachers and stu- dents. Here authority is not institutionally ordained, it is as- cribed or achieved according to the norms of the community about what kinds of authority are possible and the grounds for holding such authority and for acknowledging it (i.e. participating in community roles and relations that embody it). This is what is often mystified as "natural" authority, though it is as culture- specific a construction as one could imagine. But it can *feel* natural to members of the community. Gesellschaft-based authority never has that feel to it. They are antagonistic. When a Gemeins- chaft leader becomes a Gesellschaft authority-bearer, Gesellschaft may no longer serve the interests it evolved to serve (checks and balances no longer work; political authorities can use their power against economic powerholders; dictatorship is a decree away). Normally, however, these principles operate on different scales: Gemeinschaft authority is local, Gesellschaft authority is part of a larger institutional network, much of which does not involve face-to-face contact or direct interaction of any sort. In schools all this is further complicated by the fact that teacher and students often do not share the same cultural norms about Gemeinschaft authority. Gemeinschaft based education is very powerful, and very dangerous to Gesellschaft interests, as the mythology of the "charismatic teacher" is intended to demonstrate in our individualist culture. But a Guru is not a "charismatic" teacher in the Western sense; he (not she, usually) does not have the status of Guru (Master, Teacher, Rebbe?) because of some extraordinary individual quality (Westerners looking for this are often disappointed), but because the community has, according to its norms, construed the person in this Gemeinschaft role. Democratic election rarely or never seems to be the way in which this is done, probably because demo- cratic election embodies the Gesellschaft ideology that all elec- tors are isolated, autonomous, individuals (all "equal"), which is antagonistic to Gemeinschaft (where each has a complex set of relationships to the others and it is these relationships which are paramount). Strange how hard it is to get critical perspective on a core value of your own culture (democracy) -- thank God for the wild mirror of the Other! JAY. JAY LEMKE. City University of New York. BITNET: JLLBC@CUNYVM INTERNET: JLLBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 05:47:18 EST From: Hannu Markus Virtanen Subject: Re: Zen authority/community (fwd) Here is another message from the AT-people, which I found interesting. (hvirtane@tukki.jyu.fi) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 10:13:39 -800 (PDT) From: Jill Caire To: Jay Lemke Cc: General Forum Subject: Re: Zen authority/community Jay brings up many important issues, all of which would be impossible to address. I would like to respond to his comments on individuality and community because sometimes I wonder if changing assumptions about their relative value hasn't tipped the scales too much in the other direction. For example, Jay writes: "We also have a cultural horror of "submission" because of our deification not so much of democracy, but of individualism (which is more central to the underlying economic project, after all). In a cultural context in which, call it "immersion," in the social is normal and valued, the relations of disciple to master, like those of child to parent, are not primarily relations of individual domination, but of group integration. To submit to authority, spiritual, familial, or corporate (in the anthropological sense), is to participate in a community in the fullest sense (Gemeinschaft), is to be defined by relationships, by membership which constructs us, rather than in the modernist illusion, to think we construct communities (Gesellschaft). It is not to, as individual, submit to another, as individual, but to enact a role and its role-relationships in a whole. The modernist cult of individualism is necessarily alienating from community. It is so because the destruction of community is a necessary condition of our economic system. Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft are not two alternative kinds of community; they are two antagonistic principles, one older and surviving, the other newer and displacing, for human association." I have long thought the problem of individuality stems more from the way we have defined it--in terms of the hero myth which represents the achievement of individuality as a process of separation and identification and destruction of enemies--than individuality itself. I think there are alternative ways of defining individuality which do not have the deleterious effects stemming from the "hero" model. Vaclav Havel represents one alternative model. Personal development has long been a matter of great concern to Havel, yet he eschews the hero methods as a viable means of doing so . He develops more by carefully defining his goals and assumptions, then evaluation his behavior in terms of them (e.g., see "Letters to Olga"). On the other hand, community does indeed construct identities for its members, but these are often negative identities. Don't we fear blind submission to community, not because our economy needs individuals, but because of communities' history of defining so many of their members negatively--by virtue of their sex, religion and race? Community is wonderful when you are an accepted, valued member. But not if you are an untouchable--an identity assigned at birth from which there is no escape for the individual or their progeny. Jay remarks that Westerners are often disappointed when they observe that gurus owe their status more to consignment by community than individual merit. Yet many Eastern societies owe their stability (to the disadvantage of many members) to this emphasis on role. I agree with Jay that Gesellschaft and Gemeinschaft have been conceptualized as two antagonistic principles. The question is, do we have to see them that way? It seems to me that the great challenge of the postmodern world is not to efface our individuality, but learn to use it constructively. If we are to do so, we need models of development--personal, societal, and international--which define us positively and uniquely, yet do not pit us either against parts of ourselves or others. Jill Caire (415) 346-8661 Depression Clinic 7G15 Dept of Psychiatry San Francisco General 1001 Potrero Ave San Francisco, CA 94143 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 13:14:58 EDT From: Nobumi Iyanaga Subject: Mahe"svara in Akani.st.ha ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Thank you very much for the quotation of "Saantarak.sita. >Seems, in the rhetorical context, they are definitely trying >to displace the Hindu gods with Buddha at this juncture >in their argument. Certainly, yes. One can quote also the _Mahaayaana-avataara-"saastra_ attributed to Saaramati (?), where, as pointed out by Yamabe, is de- veloped the doctrine of the _Da"sabhuumika_, and is stated that : >the merits of the tenth bhuumi do not belong to the kaama- >dhaatu, and therefore one cannot become a Buddha in Jambuu- >dviipa. The real enlightenment takes place in the pure abodes >["Suddhaavaasa ; the Akani.s.tha is at the top of this 'pure >abodes' : Iyanaga]; the enlightenment under the bodhi tree is >just manifestation. Now, in this same _Mahaayaana-avataara-"saastra_, one can find this statement (please let me cite a few lines from my own article in French): "Dans le Mahaayaana-avataara-"saastra de Saaramati, Taishoo XXXII 1634 ii 46b1-9 (cf. Lamotte, _Traite_, I, p. 137-138 en note), on trouve une theorie qui distingue deux sortes de Mahe"svara : d'une part, Mahes"vara du Monde, connu comme le chef supreme des demons Pi"saaca; d'autre part, Mahe"svara des "Demeures pures" ("Suddhaavaasa), qui est le Bodhisattva de la Dixieme Terre. [...] On peut penser que Saaramati, qui identifie Mahe"svara au Bodhisattva de la Dixieme Terre, a senti le besoin de le distinguer de Mahe"svara-"Siva, dont la croy- ance generale en Inde fait le chef des demons malfaisants, tels que les bhuuta, les preta, les vetaala ou les pi"saaca, qui hantent les cimetieres... " (_Hooboogirin, VI, p. 746b-747a) It is interesting to note that the _Sarvatathaagata-tattvasa.mgraha_ (mentioned by Rupert), which is said to have been preached by the buddha Vairocana in the Akani.s.tha, has a long chapter describing the subjugation of Mahe"svara-"Siva by Vajrasattva ; and it seems that in this text, there is no identification of the "Palace of Mahe"svara" with the Akani.s.tha... I am particularly interested by the interaction between Buddhism and Hinduism (and/or other religions of East Asia...). It seems certain that when the Buddhists argue knowingly, they tend almost always to distinguish themselves from the Hinduism ; but from the mythological point of view, there are great many interferences or interactions, e.g. one can find out many implicit references to some elements of "sivait mythology in the figure of the Bodhisattva Avalokite"svara (cf. especially R. A. Stein, "Avalokite"svara/Kouan-yin. Un exemple de transformation d'un dieu en deesse", in Cahiers d'Extreme-Asie, II, 1986, p. 17-80). Is here the right place to post these posting concerning mythological problems of Buddhism, or are there some other Mailing Posts that suit better to these problems ?? (I'm a very new comer in the Internet World...) Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 13:50:58 EDT From: Naomi Nichols Subject: Re: Emotion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Compassion as i know it is a quality and frequency of the soul that may be perceived and radiated by the integrated incarnate personality via the Antahkarana. This is not an emotion. Naomi ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 14:31:51 EDT From: R M L Gethin Subject: Re: Akani.s.tha ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Thanks to Lance Cousins, Nobuyushi Yamabe and Nobumi Iyanaga for the references. Nobumi Iyanaga asks what Sanskrit 'Palace of the Great Lord' translates; Dan Lusthaus has already supplied the answer, but for the record the full Sanskrit text of the passage I mailed on 22 April is as follows: naraka-preta-tiryag-deva-manu.sya-bhedena pa~ncagaty-aatmaka.h sa.msaara.h tad-bahir-bhuutaa"s ca buddhaa bhagavanta ity asiddha.m martyatvam e.saam / katha.m tarhi "suddhodanaadi-kulotpattir e.saa.m "sruuyate / ity aaha nirmaa.na.m tu tathaa matam iti / etad evaagamena sa.mspandyann aaha akani.s.tha ity aadi / akani.s.thaa naama devaa.h te.saam ekade"se "suddhaavaasa-kaayikaa naama devaa.h / atra hy aaryaa eva "suddhaa aavasanti / te.saam upari mahe"svara-bhavana.m naama sthaanam / tatra carama-bhavikaa eva da"sabhuumi-prati.s.thitaa bodhisattvaa utpadyante / iha tu tad-aadhipatyena tathaa nirmaa.nam upalabhyata ity aagama.h / Commenting on: pa~ncagaty-aatma-sa.msaara-bahir-bhaavaan na martyataa/ buddhaanaam i. syate 'smaabhir nirmaa.na.m tu tathaa matam // 3549// akani.s.the pure ramye '"suddhaavaasa-vivarjite / budhyante tatra sambuddhaa nirmitas tv iha budhyate // 3550 // (Since their existence is outside sa.msaara consisting of the five destinies, the death of Buddhas is not admitted by us; therefore it is their transformation[-bodies] that are perceived. In the lovely city of Akani.s.tha, which is free from all impure abodes, there Buddhas awaken, but here [in this world] transformation[-bodies] awaken.) Tattvasa.mgraha of AAcaarya "Saantarak.sita with the Commentary 'Pa~njikaa' of "Srii Kamala"siila, edited by D. Shastri (Varanasi: Bauddha Bharati, 1968), II 1107. Rupert Gethin University of Bristol ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 24 Apr 1994 to 25 Apr 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Tue Apr 26 16:29:41 1994 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 16:01:16 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 25 Apr 1994 to 26 Apr 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 9 messages totalling 396 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Wind and fire 2. Follow the leader 3. Emotion (3) 4. Protestantism & Orientalism 5. Cakrasamvara at Harvard. 6. Enlightenment? 7. Enlightenment (was Re: In praise of congregational Buddhism) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 09:56:31 EDT From: Johannes.Bronkhorst@orient.unil.ch Subject: Wind and fire ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- A few days ago I cited a verse from the Paa.niniiya "Sik.saa. My source was the edition by Manmohan Ghosh (second edition, Delhi 1986), from which I also cited the translation, without however taking position as to the adequacy of that translation. Now John Dunne has expressed an interest in the occurrence of the verb *samarth* in the verse concerned. He may therefore like to know that of the six versions of the Paa.niniiya "Sik.saa edited by Ghosh, two have samarthya, the remaining ones having sametya. The commentary called Panjikaa explains samarthya as samyag avagamya. This seems to be the only commentary that comments on this particular form. I hope this information will be of some use. Johannes Bronkhorst ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 10:01:54 EDT From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: Follow the leader ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Richard Hayes: " The early Buddhist sangha had no leader but the dharma. Once you abandon the presupposition that a group of people need a single official leader, the problems of how to go about choosing a person to fill the office of leader pretty well vanish. Then people are free to tend to other problems, such as how to live their own lives well." If your aim is to "live your life well" then I think the Quaker model is mild and appropriate. But I don't think "the good life" is typically the aim of aspiring Buddhist meditators. Usually they want realization rather than a balanced lifestyle. It's a completely different question. Trying to gain enlightenment is not in itself a healthy and balanced kind of thing to do. It is in a way a desperate act. That's one of the reasons that some people are willing to take the risk of having a leader-- they know it is dangerous, because the leader could be a gad person or inadequate to the job. But they plan on taking a perilous journey and hope they have found a guide. Richard Hayes may indeed speak for the desires and aims of modern American Buddhists. Most of them want to live some kind of sane, Bud- dhist-style life and adapt to their environment. They want to tame Buddhism to the over-riding values of American society. I wish them well. But is it for people like that that the Hua Yen Suutra was written? Robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 10:04:02 EDT From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: Emotion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- "Dharmakiirti, who seems to think that compassion is the Buddha's most important quality, says that compassion is `raaga,' one of the words used for the kle"sa `attachment.' Sounds like an emotion to me ." Sorry, I'm afraid you'll have to give us the whole passage to make the argument that "raaga" means emotion convincing. We know a lot about what that word means. It's one of the principal terms in Indian esthet- ics. It can mean "desire" it can mean "juice" "essence," or "mood." It could be the generic term for a mood or state of mind. Can we look at the context in which Dharmakiirti uses it? Robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 10:23:26 EDT From: L S Cousins Subject: Re: Protestantism & Orientalism ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Jan Nattier writes: >Which brings us back to the orthopraxy issue: As defined by Gombrich in >his 1988 book _Theravada Buddhism_, "the salient characteristic of Protestant >Buddhism is the enhanced importance of the laity" (p. 183). And this, >surely, is one of the most striking features of the movement Obeyesekere >first labeled "Protestant": the increased role of the laity, coming at >the expense of the monastic authority which until recently has always >been central to the Theravaada (and indeed to virtually all forms of >Buddhism in all times and places). I am not so sure this is quite so simple. In traditional Southern Buddhism, at least at the village level, an extremely important role was played by various lay ritual specialists. In fact the nineteenth century involved various trends which emphasized the orthodox Pali scholarship of a section of the Sangha e.g. the Dhammayutika nikaaya of King Mongkut in Siam. Now this certainly involved a movement back to the original texts (as conceived at the time) and an attempt at modernization. It may already have involved some downgrading of the role of the laity (seen as uneducated and Hinduized). It seems to me to be possible to argue that there was and had always been tensions between the lay and monastic roles with the pendulum swinging sometimes one way and sometimes the other. Note that it is possible to suppose that the Mon king Dhammaceti in the fifteenth century offers a very cogent parallel to the activities of Mongkut. Is it not possible then to suppose that a large part of the Buddhist revivals in the nineteenth century may have had strong antecedents? Indeed there would be nothing surprising in the proposit- ion that one major response to external pressure would be an attempt at a revival along already familiar lines. (What of the response to Islam at an earlier date?) The combination of colonization by a Protestant >power and the presence of Western Buddhists in Sri Lanka has had a >tremendous and easily demonstrable impact on the course of modern Theravaada >history in that country. I don't see any virtue in hesitating to draw >cause-and-effect conclusions here. (Among the relevant references here >are Kitsiri Malalgoda's _Buddhism in Sinhalese Society 1750-1900 [Berkeley, > 1976] and the chapters on "Protestant Buddhism" in Gombrich's _Theravada >Buddhism_ and in Gombrich and Obeyesekere's _Buddhism Transformed_. These >provide ample documentation of everything from a shift to lay-centered >Buddhism to an increasing emphasis on the Buddhist scriptures to the >adoption of Buddhist "carols" on a clearly Protestant model.) Yes, as >Lance Cousins suggests, we should also be on the lookout for other possible >factors, but these should not prevent us from acknowledging the impact of >a powerful Protestant presence. I wouldn't doubt the direct influence of Christianity in such cases as the adoption of what you call Buddhist "carols". I would doubt it very much in the case of the increasing emphasis on the Buddhist scriptures. There had always been schools that had an emphasis of this kind. I doubt whether they were more than a small minority, but then the influence of Protestant Buddhism in Sri Lanka today can easily be overstated. This is even more clear once you unpack the mishmash of different things which are being grouped together under this heading. Actually the tendency for this minority approach to be the one exported overseas is perhaps a common phenomenon in the history of religion. A group with some vitality has more success overseas or becomes marginalized in the home country and pushed out. An interesting paral- lel would be the success of the minority Protestant traditions in North America. Some of the discussion here has rather assumed a picture of Protestantism based on Calvinist-Congregationalist-Anabaptist models. This looks odd from a European perspective where the Anglican and Lutheran forms have been more influential. >One hardly has to assume an immovable West, or (in the Chinese case) an >immovable India, to argue for influence here. Rather, the more complex issue >is this: what do we call it when Sri Lankan Buddhists, or "reformist" >Hindus, or 20th-century Japanese advocates of "timeless" Zen, argue for >the legitimacy of their respective traditions in terms that clearly >have been borrowed from the Western Orientalist repertoire? Skilful means? The question for me is how far they would use those arguments in their own country and language and who to. More generally, do we know what lay people did or didn't do in, say, seventeenth century Thailand? (I am deliberately switching between countries because I think there are extremely important influences between the Southern Buddhist countries which are too often ignored.) So Gombrich and Obeyesekere claim that lay meditation was an innovation. I think there are reasons for doubting this. Lance Cousins -- 35 Burlington Rd, Withington, MANCHESTER, UK, M20 4QA Telephone (UK): 061 434 3646 (International) +44 61 434 3646 Fax (UK): 061 275 3613 (International) +44 61 275 3613 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 10:28:03 EDT From: Dave Gould Subject: Re: Cakrasamvara at Harvard. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear John Dunne I read with interest your response to a query on Cakrasamvara. From meeting Lati Rinpoche in Montreal last December, I have developed an interest in Heruka Cakrasamvara. Would you be able to provide me with the address for Professor Miranda Shaw? Thankyou very much for your help. -Dave Gould dgould@acadvm1.uottawa.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 10:46:27 EST From: Richard Philip Hayes Subject: Enlightenment? >If your aim is to "live your life well" then I think the Quaker model >is mild and appropriate. But I don't think "the good life" is typically >the aim of aspiring Buddhist meditators. Usually they want realization >rather than a balanced lifestyle. It's a completely different question. Is it? I had always understood that the ability to see things as they are (which some call realization or enlightenment) was a means towards the end of eliminating unnecessary distress. Bodhi (awakening) has never struck me as an end in itself, except insofar as some Buddhists have tended to identify `enlightenment' with living harmlessly in the world and behaving in such a way that others could follow one's example without bringing harm to themselves. Would this not be a fair way to describe the aspirations of most Buddhists throughout history: that they wish to free at least themselves and at most all other beings from avoidable forms of pain, distress and discontent? >Trying to gain enlightenment is not in itself a healthy and balanced >kind of thing to do. This point can be conceded only on a technicality. One could follow the reasoning of Xunzi (Hsun-tzu) who claimed that one seeks only what one does not have, and therefore only a vicious man seeks virtue. So if `enlightenment' (a word that I hate to use, but Robin started it) is itself a state of health and balance, then I suppose only those who are unhealthy and unbalanced are trying to seek it. The others either already have it or find the very idea of being healthy and balanced repugnant for some reason. (I have met people, for example, who think that art, literature and music would be boring if everyone were happy and balanced. That may be true, but it's a risk I'd be willing to take.) > That's one of the >reasons that some people are willing to take the risk of having a >leader-- they know it is dangerous, because the leader could be a gad >person or inadequate to the job. But they plan on taking a perilous >journey and hope they have found a guide. Robin keeps missing the point entirely. I have never said that one needs no guidance. I have simply questioned the presupposition that guidance must come from one single source rather than from interaction with others who share one's aspirations. And I question whether there is any reason to believe that the journey must be perilous and as fraught with risks as Robin seems to think. >Richard Hayes may indeed speak for the desires and aims of modern >American Buddhists. Judging from the kinds of reactions my messages get from American Buddhists, I suspect Robin's conjecture may be false. Richard P. Hayes cxev@musica.mcgill.ca Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 15:20:00 EDT From: Damien Keown Subject: Re: Emotion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >>Dharmakiirti, who seems to think that compassion is the Buddha's most >>important quality, says that compassion is `raaga,' one of the words >>used for the kle"sa `attachment.' Sounds like an emotion to me ... >> >> >> John Dunne >> Study of Religion >> Harvard University > >And a `desire' (contra D. Keown). *********************** Doesn't the logic of this lead to a rather odd conclusion? If karu.naa is raaga, and raaga is a kle"sa, it follows that, according to Dharma- kiirti, the Buddha's 'most important quality' is a kle"sa. If compassion *is* a kle"sa, it's odd that Buddhism spends so much time telling people to cultivate it. And if compassion is a 'desire' then what is it that's desired? Compassion can give rise to desires (as can many other things), but to feel compassion isn't to have a desire. Com-passion is what the ety- mology of the word suggests, namely 'suffering with'. The basic notion is that of an affective identification with the suffering of others. This *may* be raaga (depending on one's definition of raaga), but it certainly isn't a kle"sa. ************************************************* Damien Keown HSA01DK@uk.ac.gold Department of Historical & Cultural Studies University of London, Goldsmiths' College London UK, SE14 6NW Voice (+44) 071 692 7171 Fax: (+44) 071 694 8911 ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 15:23:04 EDT From: Marc Wachowitz Subject: Enlightenment (was Re: In praise of congregational Buddhism) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Emilie Hsu wrote: > I thought that "enlightenment" is the path of no-return, am I right or > maybe I missed something? A few remarks, mostly from what may be called a Zen perspective (oops, of course it's politically incorrect to say that there's such a perspective, though saying Zen has no perspective would be mindless, not no-minded). There's definitely some difference between realization and actualization; that might roughly be compared to someone who knows, from experience, the ill effects of smoking, vs. someone who decreased or dropped smoking. [No discussion on smoking intended.] To some degree, those qualities may even appear without eachother (one can be deluded and still behave fine, and a great glimpse of the dharma may leave one still with the old conditioning at work), though with depth that seems to become less likely. However, it shouldn't be forgotten that energies (or whatever you call it) arising of meditation can also be quite destructive to the psyche (sometimes perhaps also to the body), which can of course influence both manners and ability to perform ordinary functions of life. On the topic of "crazy wisdom teachers", one might want to draw some line between very unusual behaviour possibly breaking our customs, and acts of brutality. Of course, it's also difficult to decide where to draw it; the context of the actual situation and the development of the student should hardly be ignored. Appearant "unfriendliness" alone doesn't always mean a lacking respect on the side of the teacher; true friendship implies not a fuzzy gentleness, but also the willingness to help "open one's eyes" very clearly, though one might not currently be particularly interested to see one's own faults. There are also degrees in depth of realization, and it may be a good idea to be extremely cautious if someone seriously declares he would be beyond the point where deepening is possible, which isn't meant to conclude such an attitude just due to a few words which may sound absolute. E.g. kensho (having a more or less clear glimpse) is usually still far away from real satori, which might be described as moving from "seeing" towards "being". To get some idea how that process might unfold, you could look at the ten ox-herding pictures or the letters between Harada Roshi and Yaeko Iwasaki appearing in "The Three Pillars of Zen" (edited by Philip Kapleau). [Yes, we are buddha-nature from the beginning, but without awakening that are empty words, and without actualization it's like a rich man starving. However, take care to shit when you've stilled your hunger; otherwise you will soon vomit, causing yourself a lot of pain and making a mess for all around you.] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * wonder everyday * nothing in particular * all is special * Marc Wachowitz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 15:30:38 EDT From: DanLusthaus Subject: Re: Emotion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >[...] to make >the argument that "raaga" means emotion convincing. We know a lot about >what that word means. It's one of the principal terms in Indian esthet- >ics. It can mean "desire" it can mean "juice" "essence," or "mood." It >could be the generic term for a mood or state of mind. > Robin Kornman Robin, are you maybe confusing raaga with rasa? Of Raaga's many mean- ings, the one Dharmakiirti most likely has in mind is: "any feeling of passion, (esp.) love, affection or sympathy for, vehement desire of, interest or joy or delight in." (Monier-Williams, p. 872) Juice, sap, essence, aesthetic "taste", etc. are rasa. Note, raaga means "passion" and "desire". It is found on virtually very list of kle'sas compiled by Buddhists (it's a negative caitta). What seems curious is why some people are struggling so hard to priv- ilege "compassion" from the "taint" of desire and passion. The Bud- dhists themselves will not only "admit" that compassion is indeed a desire (a sublimated one to be sure), but it is frequently said that it is the vestiges of desire qua compassion that keep bodhisattvas in the 10th bhuumi rather than exiting to Nirvana (part of the vow to not enter nirvana until all sentient beings are ready to go with you - reminiscent of the questions Alan Sponberg asked a ways back). Why do some people want to imagine compassion as something outside the world (this world is on fire with desire), when compassion is nothing if not an attitude toward sentient beings IN the world? Dan Lusthaus Bates College dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 25 Apr 1994 to 26 Apr 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Wed Apr 27 16:36:42 1994 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 16:03:11 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 26 Apr 1994 to 27 Apr 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 8 messages totalling 415 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Passion vs. compassion (2) 2. Cakrasamvara at Harvard. 3. HINDU-BUDDHIST DHARMATALK 4. Chinese Buddhist Revival 5. Mahe"svara (2) 6. Emotion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 20:25:10 EST From: Richard Philip Hayes Subject: Passion vs. compassion There has been a fair amount of confusing discussion recently as to whether compassion (kaaru.naa) is an emotion. Obviously, the answer to this question depends on how one defines emotion. Since emotion is not a category that corresponds perfectly to any category in Indian Buddhist thought, it might be difficult to answer this question to anyone's satisfaction. It might be more profitable to look at the question in terms of the mental categories that Buddhists used. John Dunne has claimed that Dharmakiirti regards compassion (kaaru.na) as a form of desire (raaga). There is a sense in which this is true, and another sense in which it is not true. Dharmakiirti distinguishes between two uses of the term `raaga'. In some contexts it refers simply to desire, such as the desire to speak or the desire to act. Dharmakiirti concedes that anyone who says anything or does anything must have a desire, because desire is a necessary condition for any kind of deliberate action. In this sense, then, the Buddha had desires, because he spoke and he acted. Dharmakiirti insists, however, that it must not be imagined that all desire (raaga) is vicious desire. Vicious desire, also called `raaga' in Buddhist literature is defined as follows (PVSV, p. 8, line 20 of Gnoli's edition): aatmaatmiiyaabhinive"sapuurvakaa.h hi raagaadaya.h ayoni"so manaskaarapuurvakatvaat sarvado"sotpatte.h. 'dod chags la sogs pa ni bdag dang bdag gir zhen pa sngon du 'gro ba can yin te, nye ba thams cad skye ba'i sngon du.agro ba ni tshul bzhin ma yin pa yid la byed pa yin pa'i phyir ro. Passion and so forth are preceded by a fondness for oneself and one's possessions, because the arising of every vice (do"sa, nye ba) is preceded by disorderly thinking. Further on (PVSV p. 9, line 6), Dharmakiirti says this: nityasukhaatmaatmiiyadar"sanaak.siptam saasravadharmavi.sayam cetasa.h abhi.sva"ngam raagam aahu.h 'dod chags ni sems kyi mngon par zhen pa rtag pa dang bde ba dang bdag dang bdag gir lta bas 'phangs pa zag pa dang bcas pa'i chos kyi yul can yin par smra'o. They define passion (raaga, 'dod chags) as the mind's intense attachment, which is activated by belief in the permanent, in contentment, in oneself and in possessions, and the subject matter of which is a corrupted (saasrava, zag pa dang bcas pa) property. This kind of vicious desire, which is accompanied by a false belief in self and possessions (`I' and `mine') and is therefore attended by corruptions (aasrava, zag pa), is not, however, the only kind of desire there is. There is also benevolent desire. naivam karu.naadaya.h anyathaapi sambhavaad iti nivedayi.syaama.h snying rje la sogs pa ni de lta bu ma yin te, gzhan du yang srid pa'i phyir ro zhes bstan pa bya'o. We shall show [mental states] such as compassion are not [corrupt] like that, because it is also possible for them to be otherwise. This leads to a discussion of how it is possible for one to have a desire to help others. This desire, called compassion, despite being a desire, is not vicious. In other words, when using the word desire (raaga), one must be mindful of the fact that not all desires are selfish, corrupted and harmful. It is only the vicious desires that are to be eliminated, and when these are eliminated, then one is said to be dispassionate (viraaga). According to Dharmakiirti, dispassion (vairaagya) does not entail an absence of compassion. On the contrary, compassion becomes possible only when passion is eliminated. The desire to benefit others becomes possible only when a person is no longer self-centred. I leave it to others to decide whether this means that compassion is an emotion; I cannot yet see that mooting such a question has any purpose. Richard P. Hayes Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 09:09:02 EDT From: Julia M Hardy Subject: Re: Cakrasamvara at Harvard. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Prof. Miranda Shaw Dept. of Religion University of Richmond Richmond, VA 23173 Sorry, don't have phone number. Last I heard she was hoping to do research outside the country soon, so you should probably contact her ASAP. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 09:16:53 EDT From: HARVEY FORMAN Subject: HINDU-BUDDHIST DHARMATALK ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- -> Is here the right place to post these posting concerning mythological -> problems -> of Buddhism, or are there some other Mailing Posts that suit better t -> problems ?? (I'm a very new comer in the Internet World...) -> Nobumi Iyanaga -> Tokyo, -> Japan I don't know if this is the right place or not, BUT _I_ AM INTERESTED (and if there are other mailing lists on this topic, please let me know too...). I have become interested in what I increasingly view as an asynchronous coupling between buddhist and hindu discourses. What I mean by this is that while it is very true that buddhism as a set of articulated beliefs denies the reality of the Atman, which is the focus of hinduism's set of articulated beliefs...as cultural practices (which are performed unconsciously but not consciously articulated) they both serve to de- center the investment in a permananent, abiding Ego in Charge (what in Hypnosis we call the Habitual Self). Buddhism attempts to do this through a deconstructive (if I may be permitted to use such a term here :-) mindfulness, becoming aware of how all moments are experienced separately, and how this space between (or bardo) swallows up the need to posit an experiencing self to "haunt" reality. (Although "my" "I" haunts it, no reality has ever been successfully hunted down). Hinduism attempts to do this through a trancendental investment...better not try this at your local bank, though...in Cosmic Figures, or Tropes, whose identities (if...actually, I was beginning to mis-spell this as "id"... such a word can be appropriately applied to them) are writ so large that ordinary egos (even mine? :-) trying to identify with them (as in tat tvam asi, the hindu equation of identity, where atman=brahman) can only drown. I'm reminded of one of the stories of Indra, when he was building a World-Palace more and more ornate to celebrate his Self's power and status. The building continued, and seemed as though it would continue forever, in a final materialist consumption of the universe's resources. All the other gods became alarmed. Finally Siva, disguised as a child, whom Indra nevertheless recognized as being somehow holy, went to visit him. He kept staring at the ants crawling on the floor of Indra's still unfinished palace. Indra asked him why. The "child" replied that he was remembering other Indras. "Other Indras?" asked Indra. "Why yes...ALL the other Indras. I have seen them all come and go. Each of these ants was once an Indra just like you. Each one, when they were you, wanted to build a monument, a palace that would last forever. Each one failed to complete such a palace." Then the disguised Siva left. Indra sat down to contemplate the ants, which kept on coming and coming and coming. He discovered his mind could not contain all of the ants of time, the Indras in back of him, the Indras in front of him. And he lost his desire to build a palace to himself... To me, the rhetorical energy of this story seems related to the same rhetorical energy of the Flower Ornament Sutra. A being has attained budda-hood (a phrase which already subverts itself), and ALL the boddhisatvas and buddhas from all times everywhere come to celebrate and hear the dharma teaching. One begins to read, waiting for instructions to follow. Don't be in such a hurry! First you have to read the guest-list, including the Moon-Faced Buddha, the Red-Jewel-Faced Buddha, the Original-Flower-Yellow-Springing-Up-In-The-Morning-On- Alternate-Thurday-Kalpas Buddha. Each one comes from a particular world- universe, so these must be listed. Each one has a celebratory remark or poem, "turning words" to express the dharma. Each one accepts the equest to interpret, re-phrase and re-state what each other's other has said and will say. Fifty pages pass, two hundred pages, five hundred pages. This metaphor is really fermenting! Any hungry ghost of an ego trapped in this a-maze-ment of dharma talk will become very hungry indeed! Perhaps hungry enough to finally eat itself up... Harvey the Hungry Ghost harvey.forman@tigerteam.org * RM 1.3 00580 * Dogen said: One inch of practice, one inch of Buddha... / Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network / / Modem (510) 268-0102 info@tigerteam.org / ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 13:43:58 EDT From: Alan Sponberg Subject: Re: Chinese Buddhist Revival ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Sun, 24 Apr 1994 Mahinda Deegalle wrote: > I am looking for reading materials in English on the nature and > status of Buddhism in China today. Two articles I wrote just after the beginning of the "normalization" under Deng may be helpful: "The Study of Buddhism in China: Some Observations on the Chinese Buddhist Association and its Seminary," _Journal of the Society for the Study of Chinese Religion_, XII (1984), pp. 65-76. [This volume of JSSCR contains several related articles as well.] "A Report on Buddhism in the People's Republic of China," _Journal of the International Association of Buddhist Studies_, V.1 (1982), pp. 109-117. I currently have a graduate student planning to return to Hang-chou next fall from where he hopes to do reserch on the present state of T'ien-t'ai Shan. Please keep me posted on your research. I know Bill Powell spend some time at T'ien-t'ai Shan after I was there in 1981. Has anyone done anything more recent on that monastery or other aspects of Buddhism in Che-chiang? ************************************* Alan Sponberg, Professor of Asian Philosophy and Religion Asian Studies Program, Arts & Sciences Bldg. University of Montana, Missoula, MT 59812 E-mail: sponberg@selway.umt.edu Ph: (406) 243-2803 FAX: (406) 243-4076 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 13:46:36 EDT From: John Dunne Subject: Re: Mahe"svara ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Nobumi Iyanaga has recently raised the interesting question of "Saiva-Buddhist syncretism. One little known case in point is Udbha.t.tasiddhisvaamin's _Sarvaj~namahe"svarastotra_ (available only in Tibetan: Derge bstod tshogs ka 42b5-43b3. Trans. Jarandara and Rin Chen bzang po). The syncrestism expressed in this stotra is quite striking. By way of illustration, here are the first few lines: Homage to the three jewels! I seek refuge in he who is the god of gods (devaatideva), the guru of the gods, the guru of gurus. Homage to the Great Lord (mahe"svara) who has such greatness, might and lordliness and who is free from the three worlds. With the blaze of wisdom's fire he incinerated the triple city whose nature is desire and confusion -- I bow to the triple city's burner. He always bears the skull of love (maitri), and he is smeared with the ashes of compassion (karu.naa); the moon of morality ("siila) adorns his head -- I bow to the great lord (mahe"svara). *** The stotra continues to cover a number of mythological traits of "Siva, but the Udbha.t.tasiddhisvaamin is careful to interpret these as Buddhist symbols. For the most part, Buddhist studies has paid little heed to the relationship between Buddhism and `Hinduism,' and our understanding of Buddhism is probably hindered as a result. The historical lack of interest in such topics also means that sources and interpretive articles are hard to come by. I would appreciate any references which seem apropos. I would especially appreciate infor- mation on Udbha.ta.tasiddhisvaamin (Tib. mtho btsun grub rje; possibly also known as Mudgaragomin). For example, a Sanskrit manuscript of his _Sarvaati"sayastotra_ has been made public in Nepal. Has anyone heard of any further manuscripts? Are any of his stotras preserved in Chinese? John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 13:48:35 EDT From: John Dunne Subject: Re: Emotion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Robin asks for the whole passage that I mentioned in a previous mes- sage, but the whole passage would really be too much. So I will post the bare minimum. The passage comes from Dharmakiirti's commentary on verse 1:12 of his _Pramaa.navaartika_. Ostensibly, he is addressing a certain type of fallacious evidence called "Se.savat (`remaineder-evidence'). The basic point is that such evidence does not have an invariable relat- ionship with the quality (or predicate) to be proven, although one may observe its presence in cases when that quality (or predicate) is also present. The example he uses in the verse is the argument: `the Bud- dha had desire (raaga) because he spoke.' Some of his commentary draws a distinction between vivak.sataa (linguistic intention) and desire (raaga). Eventually, his imiaginary opponent (indicated here by `OPP'-- Kumaarila, by the way, raises similar objections in the "Slokavaartika) elicits the following from Dharmakiirti (DH). Note that parenthetical insertions come from the commentaries of "Saakyabuddhi and Kar.nakagomin. DH: One cannot know (that someone is desirous) just from the mere fact that they speak because people who are desireless speak just like people who are desirous. (Nor is it possible to infer that someone is desirous) through some particular kind (of speech that only desirous people have; it is not possible) because it is difficult to know what a person's intention is; therefore, (speech does not indicated desire be- cause any linguistic interaction [vyavahaara] that one might proffer as evidence) is misleading since all (linguistic interaction) is conflated (in this regard; that is, desirous people might speak like desireless people, and desireless people might speak like desirous people). OPP: (Desireless people) would not interact linguistically because there would be no purpose (that they would wish to accomplish). DH: This is not the case because (desireless people might) interact for the sake of others. OPP: It does not make sense (that a desireless persons does anything for the sake of others) because such persons are desireless; (working for the sake of others necessarily involves attachment). DH: This is not so because a desireless person might act for the sake of others out of compassion. OPP: Then that compassion itself is desire. DH: We accept that, but it is not a fault because it does not arise through error. The Sanskrit reads: atra yathaa rakto braviiti tathaa virakto 'piiti vacanmaatraad apratipatti.h | naapi vi"se.saat | abhipraayasya durbodhatvaat | vyavahaarasa.mkare.na sarve.saam vyabhicaaraat | prayojanaabhavaad avyavahaara iti cet na paraarthatvaat | na yukto viitaraagatvaad iti cet na karu.nayaa 'pi prav.rtte.h | saiva raaga iti cet i.s.tam aviparyaasasamudbhaavaan na do.sa.h Please excuse any typographical errors. John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 13:53:56 EDT From: John Dunne Subject: Re: Passion vs. compassion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The second passage that Richard quotes comes immediately after the passage that I have just posted. Richard is correct to distinguish between at least two senses of raaga that Dharmakiirti employs in the commentary on 1:12. But I find it quite remarkable that Dharmakiirti decides to uses even a highly qualified definition of raaga as a de- scription of karu.naa. He certainly deviates considerably from the Pan-Indian emphasis in his time on viitraaga as a quality of one who has attained mok.sa. This is especially true of systematic literature. He also deviates considerably from earlier Buddhist tendencies in that regard. To use a word connected to t.r.s.na (tanha) as a description of a quality of the Buddha seems like a fairly radical departure to me. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 15:49:20 EDT From: "Michael J. Sweet" Subject: Re: Mahe"svara ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In Message Wed, 27 Apr 1994 13:46:36 EDT, John Dunne writes: > >Nobumi Iyanaga has recently raised the interesting question of >"Saiva-Buddhist syncretism. One little known case in point is >Udbha.t.tasiddhisvaamin's _Sarvaj~namahe"svarastotra_ (available only >in Tibetan: Derge bstod tshogs ka 42b5-43b3. Trans. Jarandara and >Rin Chen bzang po). The syncrestism expressed in this stotra is quite >striking. By way of illustration, here are the first few lines: > >Homage to the three jewels! > I seek refuge in he who is > the god of gods (devaatideva), > the guru of the gods, >the guru of gurus. >... >... >... See, if you haven't already, Leonard Zwilling's article "The Visesastava of Udbhattasiddhasvamin", in A. K. Narain, Ed., *Studies in Pali and Buddhism*, Delhi: 1979: 407-414. Michael Sweet ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 26 Apr 1994 to 27 Apr 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Tue May 3 16:32:32 1994 Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 16:01:29 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 29 Apr 1994 to 3 May 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 17 messages totalling 868 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Passion vs. compassion (2) 2. a point of grammar 3. Shin Buddhist Hermeneutic 4. He/him 5. Buddhist typeface 6. Translation needed 7. Western worldview and Buddhism 8. Construction of Protestantism 9. Karmapa XVII 10. SUBTLE MINDS FOR BODIE 02 11. GIRL DALAI LAMA? 12. SUBTLE MINDS FOR BODIE 01 13. Announcing Central-Asia-Studies-L electronic forum 14. Movie clips of Asian religions in America? 15. Mahe"svara 16. Watazumi Doso Roshi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 09:50:33 EDT From: Damien Keown Subject: Re: Passion vs. compassion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Richard Hayes provides welcome clarification of Dharmakirti's under- standing of compassion and desire (raaga). > naivam karu.naadaya.h anyathaapi sambhavaad iti nivedayi.syaama.h > > snying rje la sogs pa ni de lta bu ma yin te, gzhan du yang srid > pa'i phyir ro zhes bstan pa bya'o. > > We shall show [mental states] such as compassion are not [corrupt] > like that, because it is also possible for them to be otherwise. This confirms my original point that not all desire is wrongful. (Just a suggestion: perhaps the sense of 'anyathaapi sambhavaad' is 'because they arise in a different way') >This leads to a discussion of how it is possible for one to have a >desire to help others. This desire, called compassion, despite being >a desire, is not vicious. Whether compassion is to be classified as 'desire' or not is no longer an important issue once it is accepted that not all desire is wrong. However, I still think that a conceptual distinction can be made be- tween compassion and desire (this is not out of some peculiar wish to keep compassion separate from the world - an extraordinary notion - but simply to be clear about what the terms mean). Out of curiosity, then, does Dharmakiirti say that compassion *is* the desire to help others, or that compassion is the basis from which the desire to help others arises? I am doubtful about the first interpretation because, for example, one can have a desire to help others without feeling at all compassionate. ************************************************* Damien Keown HSA01DK@gold.ac.uk Department of Historical & Cultural Studies University of London, Goldsmiths' College London UK, SE14 6NW Voice (+44) 071 692 7171 Fax: (+44) 071 694 8911 ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 09:52:59 EDT From: Robert Wahl Subject: Re: a point of grammar ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > > I seek refuge in he who is > > *Please!* I seek refuge in him who. . . > Please indeed. Changing "he" to "him" does not correct an error but > rather changes the meaning of the sentence. Him who corrects grammer > changed god from the subject to the object, from the actor to the > acted upon. Sorry, Tim, but the pronoun here is the object of a preposition, where only "him" is correct; "who" is the subject of the following adjectival clause. Your supposed change of meaning is not applicable, because semantically "I seek" already implies a subject/object relationship. If "he who is..." were considered an invariant phrase (as one might refer to Rumpole's "She who must be obeyed"), you might have had a case, but still not for the reason you cite. Whether it was appropriate for another person to correct the original poster (or for you to correct them, etc.) is a separate issue. However, if you intend to fight pedantry with pedantry, please check your facts first -- it leads to less flaming. Thank you for listening, and I apologize for my own pedantry. -- Robert Wahl * Standing by a stump, waiting for rabbits... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 09:53:21 EDT From: GARY RAY Subject: Shin Buddhist Hermeneutic ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- CROSSPOSTED FROM BODHINET: ---> SHIN BUDDHIST HERMENEUTICS: Gratitude and Compassion <--- Hosted by the Steering Committee of the International Association of Shin Buddhist Studies, North American Branch Saturday, September 24, 1994 at the Institute of Buddhist Studies 1900 Addison Street Berkeley, CA 94704 The conference will be in honor of Dr. Alfred Bloom for his untiring efforts over the years to advance the understanding and appreciation of Shin Buddhism in the western world. Members of the IASBS as well as others who are interested in Shin Buddhism or Pure Land Buddhism are urged to attend this conference at which papers and panels on the conference theme will be presented. For further information, call Eisho Nasu at 510-540-8960 or leave a message for Mr. Nasu at the IBS 510-849-2383 or 510-849-2158 (FAX) Gary L. Ray (gary.ray@tigerteam.org) | Modem: 510-268-0102 Information Manager | Fax: 510-849-2158 Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network | Voice: 510-540-6565 "America's Buddhist Online Service" | Berkeley, CA U.S.A. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 09:53:42 EDT From: Jim Cocks Subject: He/him ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear gentle listfolk, The person solution holds greater merit of course. Fowler calls for 'him' in the other formulation. Noel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 09:54:26 EDT From: BUDDHA-L Subject: Buddhist typeface ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ====================================================================== * Forwarded by Barry Kapke (1:125/33) * Area : BUDDSTDY (Buddhist Studies) * From : G. Adam Stanislav, 96:802/39 (Wednesday April 27 1994 17:43) * To : All * Subj : Buddhist typeface ====================================================================== Sometime last year, someone inquired about a typeface (font) for Bud- dhist scholars, one that has all the the dotted m's and other charac- ters needed for transliteration of Sanskrt and Pali texts. At that time I took it upon myself to produce such a font. One thing I did not consider at the time was copyright issues: I am perfectly cap- able of taking a font and add the appropriate accented characters to it, but can I distribute such a font. Anyway, I have contacted ITC (International Typeface Corporation) and am working on a licensing agreement with them. I will be allowed mod- ify any of their fonts for the purposes of having the necessary char- acters for Buddhist scholars. I will, of course, have to pay a royalty to ITC. There is a catch: I have to BUY the digital data for any typeface I shall use from URW company. The cost is quite steep. I am talking about thousands of dollars, just to produce a font with regular, italic, bold, and bold-italic characters. However, it will be a professional quality font. Once I have it, I will be able and allowed to produce the Buddhist scholar font in any format I wish (or you need): PostScript, TrueType, LaserJet, and others. I do not have a Mac, so I will only be able to do so for the PC. The thing is, I do not have thousands of dollars. I'd like to know how many Buddhist scholars here would be seriously interested in acquiring such a font, and how many would be willing to pay for it in advance so I could purchase the necessary "rights" to the font. How much would it cost? I do not want to make any specific quotes here. I assure you, I am not trying to make a fast buck off you. I promised to provide this service, and want to keep my promise. I want to make it as inexpensive for everyone here as possible. So, the more people that would be interested, the cheaper it would get. Please ask around among your friends and fellow Buddhist scholars how many would be willing to contribute to this project. For starters, I would like to license either ITC New Baskerville, ITC Caslon, or ITC Garamond. Any of these typefaces is suitable for serious scholarly work. Later on, if I can find other people interested in these fonts, I would like to license more different typefaces and make them work with transliterated Sanskrt and Pali. But I need to know how many would be interested in the first phase of this project. Incidentally, it will not be limited to Sanskrt and Pali. I will make sure it also contains everything necessary for transliterated Tibetan, Chinese, and Japanese. I am also working on a Devanagari font of my own. Since I am drawing it myself, this one will not require any license fees to anyone. I *have* created a font of my own that contains all the characters re- quired for transliterated Sanskrt etc. but it is not suitable for ser- ious scholarly work. It is a so called display face which was inspir- ed by the art and tools preserved from Stone Age. Anyone interested in seeing it can file request STONEAGE.LZH from here, or probably from Barry (I sent it to him, but do not know if he has it available for freqing). Yung Kang -!- FD 1.99c ! Origin: Astral Board * 412-824-6566 * Dharmanet (96:802/39) ============================================================================= If anyone is interested in contacting Adam directly, his e-mail address would be G..Adam.Stanislav@f39.n129.z1.fidonet.org -Barry Kapke (dharma@netcom.com) ============================================================================== -- BUDDHA-L - via FidoNet node 1:125/1 UUCP: ...!uunet!kumr!shelter!33!BUDDHA-L INTERNET: BUDDHA-L@f33.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 10:03:39 EDT From: Dave Tilley Subject: Translation needed ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I am looking for a favor by way of translation. I have approx. 120-130 words of english that I would like to get translated into Tibetan ( English characters is fine ). If anybody has the inclination to do so please respond to: tilley@kodak.com Thanks. Dave Tilley ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 10:04:12 EDT From: "J. P. S." Subject: Re: Western worldview and Buddhism ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In response to Erik's message about our western culture's inability to make sense of Buddhism.... It is not that our culture is representative of intelligence such as Plato (Descartes and Freud don't really matter). It is that our culture has not realized that the way in which it (platonic philos- ophy) is interpreted is faulty. Buddhist thught takes on a very mon- ist perspective, and unfortunately, the only way we explain things (including monism) is through Aristotilian logic. We our trained from day 1 to think in these terms....The sum of the parts will never equal the whole because we will never be able to add it all up in the first place......The whole can only equal the whole........... The only reason plato didn't work is because Aristotle made him explain it on his terms. As for buddhism, it is quite possibly the only logic I have ever come across that actually does a pretty good job in explaining Platonistic philosophy through empirical logic. Very few of us (and I doubt myself many times too) are able to break free of such conditioning. Shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 10:07:41 EDT From: John Dunne Subject: Construction of Protestantism ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Unfortunately, I have managed to lose Brian Bocking's last message, but I believe he asked for some solid evidence that the West's contact with Asia clearly affected the construction of the notion of `Protest- antism.' Jan Nattier's recent message thoughtfully raises some paral- lel issues, and she mentions that she does not feel uncomfortable with seeing the `influence' of Protestantism in certain developments in Theravaada Buddhism. In raising the possiblity that we have taken a rather monolithic view of Protestantism (and therefore of the West in general), I intended to emphasize the way in which we sometimes presume that the `West' over- powers the `East.' Such assumptions are often based on the model of `influence.' To take a trivial example, because many Asian leaders and luminaries wear western suits and ties, we see Western `influence.' Conversely, we see little such influence in the West, for Anglican bishops do not wear dhotis, and khadi is not much favored by our pol- iticians. But I would argue that this model, even in its more subtle instantiat- ions, is a rather impoverished way of looking at cultural interaction. In claiming that we are ignoring the way in which Protestantism of the nineteenth century was constructed in part through interaction with Asia, I am thinking of different models. Although I cannot say much here, one prime example is Hegel's work on religion. His _Lectures on the Philosophy of Religion_ (I use Hodg- son's translated edition of the 1827 lectures) would simply not be possible without Europe's encounter with Asian religions. I do not mean that the data would not have been availabe; rather, I mean that the way he conceives of Christianity as the `consummate religon (vol- lendete Religion)' comes from its opposition to other religions, es- pecially (I would argue) Hinduism and Buddhism. Hegel's project seems typical of Europe at that time. Travel to Asia was becoming more pract- ical and frequent, and the flood of new data throughout the nineteenth century posed innumerable problems for interpreters. Just when Euro- pean scholars thought they had everything figured out, along come bi- zarre and inexplicable forms of life. A pressing need arose to see how these strange worlds somehow fit into Christian teleology; colon- ial aspirations (and moral qualms) prompted many writers to reaffirm the superiority of Europe. This was especially true of writers on religion, for religion often served as a justification for colonizat- ion (the proverbial `white man's burden'). My point is that theologians can react to other cultures in ways other than assimilation. Instead of absorbing traits, one can emphasize differences, and in doing so, one might redefine aspects of one's own tradition. Such redefinitions (of which Hegel is fond) come about in large part through cultural interaction, for it is the contact with other cultures and the need to control them which necessitate such re- workings. The Protestantism which influenced Sri Lankan Buddhism comes from Britain, the country which was arguably the most affected by its colonial experience. Recall, for instance, that nearly all British Protestant missions got their start (or were extensively expanded) in the nineteenth century. Although I have read only journalistic ac- counts of missionaries, my impression is that missionary work prompted considerable theological reflection. The need to convey one's beliefs to another often produces new insights that can only arise through cultural interaction (a sentiment expressed by W.C. Smith). In short, my contention is that missionary work raised new questions and created new contexts that often required theological and institutional reas- sessment. If such reassessment does not entail assimilation (Bishops don't wear dhotis), we should not thereby conclude that Britain's in- teraction with Asia, particularly India, did not transform British society. The British tendency to interact through opposition is well illustrat- ed by the shift in standards (or perceptions of standards) of behavior during the colonization of India. In the earliest period, British men were said to have `gone native' far more often. Many wore native dress, and quite a few had Indian wives or mistresses. But later standards rejected all such acquiescence to sensual India (the sen- suality of the east is a frequent Orientalist motif- see Said). We all know the images of that period: the upright civil servant, the only white man in his district, dining each night in proper British attire; the men at the club dressed in starched collars for evening drinks. The opposition is striking, if only for the incredible effort it must have required. Anyone who has lived in India knows that a shirt and tie in the hot season is something close to insanity. Ideally, Brian, I would direct you to some specific work on the sub- ject. Unfortunately, my research deals with earlier times. I suspect, in any case, that a book on the effects of the colonial experience on Protestantism has yet to be written. Numerous journals, diaries and biographies, however, are available. A little digging will surely turn-up some material for a colonial history of British protestantism in the nineteenth century. For the more theoretical concerns, some of what I have raised resonates with Inden's _Imagining India_, a tome worth reading. John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 10:18:43 EDT From: "Paul G. Hackett" Subject: Karmapa XVII ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- There has been some discussion on TIBET-L on the 17th Karmapa lately. One of the issues involved is a supposed prophecy by the 5th Karmapa concerning troubles arising over the recognition of the 17th Karmapa. Can anyone give me a textual citation for this? Thanks, Paul G. Hackett pgh2z@Virginia.edu Buddhist Bibliography Alderman Library University of Virginia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 10:19:19 EDT From: HARVEY FORMAN Subject: SUBTLE MINDS FOR BODIE 02 ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Continued from the previous message... . only be accurated cognized, perceived, understood and utilized via its status as a hypnotic rather than a meditative phenomena. And that in the development of a Western Buddhism, such distinctions will become increasingly important. Harvey the hungry ghost harvey.forman@tigerteam.org * RM 1.3 00580 * Kabir said: Between conscious & unconscious, a third mind... / Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network / / Modem (510) 268-0102 info@tigerteam.org / ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 10:19:55 EDT From: HARVEY FORMAN Subject: GIRL DALAI LAMA? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- A quick question for all you scholars out there... A few years back I ran across a reference, since lost, that at one point those searching for the returning incarnation of the Dalai Lama's non-Atman had determined to their satisfaction that the new in- carnation was a girl child. Due to intense pressure from the Chinese, however, it was then determined that she was not "really" the one they were looking for, and they then found the boy child that was "really really" the true (and approvable) incarnation. I am hoping to find out more details about this story. Thanks in advance, Harvey Forman harvey.forman@tigerteam.org * RM 1.3 00580 * Bakhtin said: All phenomena merge with value-judge- ments... / Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network / / Modem (510) 268-0102 info@tigerteam.org / ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 10:21:54 EDT From: HARVEY FORMAN Subject: SUBTLE MINDS FOR BODIE 01 ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- So Leigh Charles Goldstein, living in Colorado near mountains high enough to unconsciously stimulate the karmic seeds of no doubt prev- ious lifetimes in tantric tibetan monasteries, says that he likes med- itating on subtle bodies. Richard Hayes, however, complains that he was short-changed when they were passing out skandas in the pre-womb bardo state. Could it be that Richard's subtle body is too subtle? But too subtle for Richard, or the rest of us? Anyway, there is no cause for complaint. Surely Richard has heard of the STORE house of consciousness. For the right price (which you will surely pay for) you can buy any desire your temporary mind(s) has come up with, as long as you don't mind that such desires can never be ful- filled. Unsatisfactory? But so it goes... Perhaps there is a difference between subtle bodies and subtle minds? But actually this brings me to my question. While I enjoy imaginary bodies as much as the next hungry buddhist ghost, I am wondering if this discussion doesn't point to the difference between what might be called the "hypnotic" elements hiding within meditation, and meditat- ion itself? That is, any time there is a practice involving visualizations, which necessarily imply an unconscious dissociation between a presumed experiencing subject "over here" and a subject to be experienced "over there"...then regardless of the presumed nature of the "meditation practice", an additional unconscious register of hypnotic suggestion is also always being communicated...and these "unconscious suggest- ions" are even more important within the meditative context than they would be in a deliberately hypnotic context, because of their unac- knowledged presence, and the fact that the power of their suggestive influence is being con-FUSED with meditative practice itself. I am speaking here as someone who has practiced buddhist meditation since the '60s (no claim to ability or merit is being claimed, merely the minimal stubborness required to notice the breath and stare at walls, decades of proof that I will never attain enlightenment in this life...), mostly zazen but also weird tibetan stuff, reading between the lines of the bardo thodol, not only getting a purchase on my subtle body but even going so far as cutting it up and giving such imaginary flesh away to all passing hungry ghosts and demons as will nosh on it in a pure land feast of imaginary deconstructive cannibalism (but is cannibalism the right word for i-maginations that are presumably...can we presume this, though?...empty of self?) and practicing overtone chanting et cetera. BUT ALSO as someone who has been both a student and teacher of most major styles of hypnosis and related "suggestion therapies", and the effects of language and con- text and "transference affect" on consciousness. To put it another way: in the countries of origin through which these styles of meditation and buddhism have come to us, there were no separate discourses of hypnosis and suggestion as separately conceived from religion and meditation. Although it is true that certain styles of meditation were thought of as separate streams...samatha (concentra- tion, or calm abiding) and vipassana (awareness), for example...that needed to be practiced and then joined together...these sorts of dis- tinctions may not be enough, as buddhism enters the West. So I suggest that the dialogue personified by Charles Leigh Goldstein and Richard Hayes may be of more than a passing concern. These different styles or approaches to meditation are more than just that. They also represent a hidden representation of what in the West has come to be known and studied under the name of "hypnotic realities". In my own personal practice, I prefer my meditation straight, a direct (or as direct as a poor hungry ghost such as my own pet presumed s(elf) can get) perception of reality without imaginary incursions from the unconscious. I also prefer my hypnosis straight, in the sense that I want to know when I am engaging the "unconscious" energies of desire and its attendant imageries, the structure of unconscious lang- uage "allusions" and "indirect pointers", the subtleties of bio- enegetic energies (chi, ki, orgone energy, animal magnetism, white and red energy drops melting into visualized winds whoosing through hollow empty Enjoyment Bodies) and the mis-readings (re-contextualizations) of suggestion. To say it again: I don't mean, when I say that I want my hupnosis straight, that I don't want it in the form of tibetan-inspired subtle- body meditations. But I do mean that when I practice such practices, I practice them with the awareness of a hypnotist, who has studied the nature of how imagery and contextual language communicates with/to the so-called unconscious (or fragmented, partial, temporary egos that "make us up"). I also don't mean "to suggest" that such buddhist vis- ualizations, practiced within a buddhist context, are not without val- uable things to teach us...and I do not mean to "reduce" them to only Western conceptions of hypnosis. But I do mean that much that is of value "from its own side" (with appropriate apologies to Nagarjuna) can. Continued in the next message... / Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network / / Modem (510) 268-0102 info@tigerteam.org / ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 10:42:12 EDT From: "T.Matthew Ciolek" Subject: Announcing Central-Asia-Studies-L electronic forum ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear Colleagues, Apologies for any cross-posting. Please feel free to forward the message to other interested persons. ----------------------- beginning of the announcement ----------------------- ==================================================== About the CENTRAL-ASIA-STUDIES-L - a new forum on majordomo@coombs.anu.edu.au ==================================================== This Forum was established by the Research Schools of Social Sciences and Pacific & Asian Studies, The Australian National University, Canberra to provide a world-wide communications vehicle and a central electronic archive for anyone working on, or interested in the study of, the broadly defined Central Asia's history, politics, sociology, demography, economics, languages, culture, philosophy and religion, and to place these within the broader framework of the changing global order. The CENTRAL-ASIA-STUDIES-L Forum, therefore, both complements and extends the scope of research interests of the only other related e-mail system, the CENASIA (Former Soviet Republic - Central Asia Political Discussion List), which runs on LISTERV@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA and is moderated by Keith Martin The Forum was established on the 2 May 1994 on the joint initiative of: Dr T.Matthew Ciolek, Coombs Computing Unit, RSSS/RSPAS, ANU; Dr Scott Davis, Contemporary China Centre, RSPAS, ANU; Dr Amin Saikal, Centre for Middle Eastern & Central Asian Studies, ANU; and Dr David Kelly, Dept of Politics, Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia. Anyone, whether a registered member or not, can electronically view and retrieve the communications to the forum using a database 'ANU-Central-Asia-Studies-L' accessible through the standard WAIS software and through the ANU's COOMBSQUEST Social Sciences and Humanities Information Facility gopher running on the coombs.anu.edu.au, port 70 as well as on the cheops.anu.edu.au, port 70 machines. LIST OWNER: Dr Scott Davis TECHNICALITIES: to join (subscribe to) the forum send e-mail ----------------------------------------------- to: majordomo@coombs.anu.edu.au message: subscribe Central-Asia-Studies-L your e-mail address [eg: subscribe Central-Asia-Studies-L xyz@abacus.abc.edu.au] Gopher access to the ANU-Central-Asia-Studies-L dbase: -------------------------------------------------------------------- Name=Search the "ANU-Central-Asia-Studies-L" database Type=7 Port=70 Path=waissrc:/Coombs-db/ANU-Central-Asia-Studies-L.src Host=cheops.anu.edu.au WWW access to the ANU-Central-Asia-Studies-L dbase: ------------------------------------------------------------------- via ANU's Asian Studies WAIS Servers Register http://coombs.anu.edu.au/WWWVLPages/AsianPages/WWWVL-AsianStudies-db.html or directly gopher://cheops.anu.edu.au/7waissrc%3a/Coombs-db/ANU-Central-Asia-Studies-L.src ----------------------- end of the announcement ----------------------- -================================================== Dr T. Matthew CIOLEK tmciolek@coombs.anu.edu.au phone: +61 (0)6 249 0110 fax: +61 (0)6 257 1893 Coombs Computing Unit, Research School of Social Sciences, Australian National University, Canberra, ACT 0200, Australia =================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 10:46:06 EDT From: John McRae Subject: Movie clips of Asian religions in America? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- [This message is being sent to Buddha-l, Taoism-Studies-l, asrel-l, and asrel-fac-l. Sorry about any duplications.] First, the setup: This is the last week of my "Introduction to Asian Religions" class, and this afternoon (Tuesday, May 3) I will give a slide lecture on the World's Parliament of Religions in 1893. On Thursday, I would like to talk (briefly, and in a rather light vein, since it's the last day of the semester) about Asian religions in America in the last few decades. Now, the question: What I would like to do is show several short clips from widely avail- able movies or TV series that depict Asian religions in America. Two that come to mind are the "Kung Fu" TV series, especially if I can get Carradine (I'm sorry, wasn't it Kane? I was out of the country when it was originally popular, thank heavens!) receiving instructions from his more-or-less Ch'an Buddhist master, and "What's Love Got to Do With It?," the recent film about Tina Turner in which there is some depiction of her chanting the Daimoku (Great Title of the Lotus Suutra) according to Nichiren Shooshuu of America style. (Haven't seen this one yet.) So, does anyone know of any other possibilities? Any good scenes of ethnic Asian-American Buddhist community religious practices in any of the post-Vietnam War movies? Any Zen meditators or Tibetan Buddhists on film? Any depictions of Hare Krishna devotees I could use? (I'm not sure the scenes from "Airplane" are appropriate!) Please DON'T recomend Bertolucci's "Little Buddha," or whatever the title is, since it isn't out yet. In fact, I have to be able to find these films at the local video store or campus film libraries, so let's not get too esoteric here, OK? (Actually, I may have to keep working on this for next year's class, so any suggestions are OK.) Also, please note that I am perfectly willing to make fun of Hollywood for stuff like "Kung Fu," which I will juxtapose with slides of Chinese Buddhists and appropriate oral commentary (by yours truly) for peda- gogical purposes. However, I don't have the time or energy in this class to introduce and rebut anything really outrageously racist, such as the old Fu Manchu movies. On the other hand, I would like to pres- ent materials from both meditation center ("elite" or "mainstream") and devotional community ("ethnic") Buddhism. In this sense, I'd love to know of useful material dealing with the Japanese internment during WWII and the postwar Japanese-American community, which would open many of my students' eyes to a world they don't (really) know existed. A friend of mine was involved in creating the film "Farewell to Manzanar" some years back, but I can't remember if there are any scenes involving butsudan or Buddhist worship... Basically, the point of the class is as follows: After talking about Asian religions "over there" and "way back when" for 13 weeks, I want the students to think -- even briefly -- about how these religions influence their own lives in the present. Please note that in terms of ethnic and national origins this is a very mixed class -- at least 35% have Asian surnames, and several more have Asian heritage from their mothers' sides. I haven't tabulated all this, but we have students with Chinese, Indian, Japanese, Korean, and Thai background. One of my points will be that they and their interests in Asian relig- ions **are** part of the phenomena we're studying. John McRae, asrel-l list owner jrm5@cornell.edu CU.AS250.instructor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 13:20:01 EDT From: Nobumi Iyanaga Subject: Re: Mahe"svara ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Thanks very much to all those who were so kind as to reply to my mes- sage of Tue Apr 26 05:13:35 1994. The myth of Indra and of the ants that were and that will be 'the Indras in back of him, the Indras in front of him', quoted by Harvey Forman, reminded me my first reading of the book of H. Zimmer, _Myths and Symbols in Indian Art and Civilization_ (New York, 1946...) ; this myth was the first myth related in this book. I remember pur- chasing and reading it in Paris more than 25 years ago in its French translation... The similitude, pointed out by H. Forman, of this myth with the image of the Avat.msaka is striking. It reminded me also the statue of the Great Buddha of Toodai-ji in Nara, which represents an infinity of Buddhas reflecting each other in a kind of mirror image. This empha- sis on what one could call a 'feeling of infinity' is doubtlessly one of the interesting characteristics of the Indian thought in general... As to the strophes of the _Sarvaj~namahe"svarastotra_ quoted by John Dunne, I must say that I was most struck and interested by these verses, which I didn't know at all. Also, its author, Udbha.t.tasiddhisvaamin was unknown to me; I would like to know more about him, the period of his activity, his other writings, etc. The article of Leonard Zwilling "The Visesastava of Udbhattasiddhasvamin", in A. K. Narain, Ed., *Studies in Pali and Buddhism* (Delhi: 1979: 407-414), mentioned by Michael Sweet seems interesting, but I have no access to this book (nor am I able to read Tibetan or Sanskrit...). Concerning these verses, I could quote the last 3 pages of Jean Naudou, _Les Bouddhistes ka"smiiriens au Moyen age_, Paris, Presses Univers- itaires de France, 1968 (Annales du Musee Guimet, LXVIII), p.210-212, where the author talks about the popular syncretism of medieval Ka"smiira, in which the Buddhism is hardly distinguished from the Hinduism. Here are the last few lines of the book of Naudou (p. 212): "...invoquant Celui qui, pure lumiere inconditionnee (_ni.skiilita.m mahas_), impose les liens karmiques dans le temps et l'espace (_de"sakaalakalanaa_), Joonaraaja proclame: aatmaa vaastu "sivo'stu vaastvatha hari.h so'pyatmabhuur ast vaa buddho vaastu jino'stu vaastvatha para.m tasmai nama.h kurmahe (2e R.T., stance 350) ``Qu'Il soit l'aatman ou qu'Il soit "Siva ou bien Hari, qu'Il soit Brahmaa ou le Buddha ou bien encore Jina, nous Lui rendons souver- ainement hommage !``" But the verses of Udbha.t.tasiddhisvaamin seem to me much more inter- esting, because the author relates "Siva and Buddha in a very con- scious way. John Dunne writes: >For the most part, Buddhist studies has paid little heed >to the relationship between Buddhism and `Hinduism,' >and our understanding of Buddhism is probably hindered >as a result. > >The historical lack of interest in such topics also means >that sources and interpretive articles are hard to come by. I agree entirely with these views. I have been just finishing writing an article in Japanese on these problems... One of the main reasons why there are so few studies on these topics seems to me the fact that there is a very strong separation between Buddhist studies and Indology in general. It is partly because the Buddhist studies are not limited to the Indian world ; more technically, the studies of Buddhism requires so many trainings in so various fields (4 or 5 clas- sical languages of the East Asia, the cultural history of many coun- tries, trainings in religious studies and philosophical studies, etc., etc...), while attention is rarely paid to something other than the Buddhism. But there is certainly something more important : I mean that traditionally, scholars of the Buddhism never looked this relig- ion as _one of the many_ religions of India, one of its cultural phenomenons ; the result is that there are so few studies on Indian Buddhism in its historical, sociological, religious or mythological co John Dunne wrote that he >would appreciate any references which seem apropos (about >the relationship between Buddhism and `Hinduism') Here are some little indications that could perhaps help... (I'm sorry, these are only in French and somewhat old): D. S. Ruegg, "Rapports entre le bouddhisme et le 'substrat religieux' indien et tibetain", in _Journal Asiatique_, 1964, 1, p. 77-95; C. Regamey, "Motifs vishnouites et "sivaites dans le _Kaara.n.davyuuha", in _Etudes tibetaines...en honneur de Mademoiselle Marcelle Lalou_, Paris, Adrien Maisonneuve, 1971, p. 411-432; R. A. Stein, "Avalokite"svara/Kouan-yin" (mentioned in my previous posting) Id., "Bouddhisme et mythologie. Le probleme", in Yves Bonnefoy, ed., _Dictionnaire des Mythologies et des Religions_, Paris, Flammarion, 1981, I, p.127b-129b; Id., "Porte (gardien de la) : un exemple de mythologie bouddhiste, de l'Inde au Japon", in _Dictionnaire des Mythologies_, II, p. 280a-294a; Mario Bussagli, $BRR (Joyaute, guerre et fecondite. A Propos d $BUu (Jne monnaie ku.saa.n $BS, (J in _Revue de l $BUH (Jistoire des Relig- ions_, octobre-decembre 1951. If anybody could add to this very short list, I would appreciate very much. Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 13:50:18 EDT From: Marc Wachowitz Subject: Re: Passion vs. compassion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Damien Keown wrote: > However, I still think that a conceptual distinction can be made be- > tween compassion and desire (this is not out of some peculiar wish to > keep compassion separate from the world - an extraordinary notion - > but simply to be clear about what the terms mean). One might say that "desire" arises from the notion of being more or less separate (a self), whereas compassion is naturally there when separation ceases. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * wonder everyday * nothing in particular * all is special * Marc Wachowitz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 15:38:07 EDT From: Mark Ty Unno Subject: Watazumi Doso Roshi ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I have a question for Zen specialists: Does anyone know of any literature in English on the flute-playing Japanese Zen master Watazumi Doso Roshi who describes himself as a member of the Fuke School? Thank you for any help on this matter. Mark Unno Ksanti@leland.stanford.edu ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 29 Apr 1994 to 3 May 1994 ************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Wed May 4 16:07:09 1994 Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 16:00:29 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 3 May 1994 to 4 May 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 11 messages totalling 310 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Passion vs. compassion 2. SUBTLE MINDS FOR BODIE 01 3. CHINESE/ENGLISH SOFTWARE FOR IBM (3) 4. Movie clips of Asian religions in America? 5. MAHE"SVARA 6. Administrivia - filelist update 7. Construction of Protestantism 8. Mahe"svara 9. Western worldview and Buddhism - continuing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 16:47:01 EDT From: John Dunne Subject: Re: Passion vs. compassion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Damien asks whether Dharmakiirti says that compassion is a desire. If you consult the posting in which I translate the passage, you will see that he says exactly that (provided that you translate the word `raaga' as `desire'). You will also notice that the portion I trans- lated ends, "... but it is not a fault because it does not arise through error." Richard's comments are a clarification of this phrase. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 10:27:55 EDT From: Leigh Charles Goldstein Subject: Re: SUBTLE MINDS FOR BODIE 01 ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'll reply to this on the Buddhist list, which seems more appropriate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leigh Charles Goldstein goldstel@essex.hsc.colorado.edu voice: 303-478-5292 (USA) CIS 70304,211 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 10:28:19 EDT From: Sky Warrior* Subject: CHINESE/ENGLISH SOFTWARE FOR IBM ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This question might have been asked and answered recently but can anyone tell me if there is an IBM word-processing software that does BOTH Chinese and English in the same document? I basically need it for writing papers on the East Asian Buddhist traditions - which means that I am not too crazy about simplified Chinese. Any help will be much appreciated! And if someone knows where and how to get a copy of such a soft-ware, please include info. Thanks. Sincerely, Hun Lye -- Hun-yeow Lye hl2m@poe.acc.virginia.edu 304 14th Street NW, Apt 4A Charlottesville, VA 22903 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 10:37:40 EDT From: cesloane@maroon.tc.umn.edu Subject: Re: Movie clips of Asian religions in America? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- There is a film/video by Taggart Siegel called "Blue Collar and Bud- dha", about the establishment of a Lao wat in Rockford, IL, and the hostile reactions from the white community. It was made in 1982 or so, so much has changed since then. There is a book called "Seeking Refuge in L.A.", and I seem to recall that a video was made with the same title. Is my memory correct? It is about a Vietnamese temple in Los Angeles, and deals more with intra- ethnic conflicts, assimilative pressures, etc. While not Buddhist, there is an excellent video on Hmong traditional religion in Chicago that deals with many of the same issues. Produced by Taggart Siegel and Dwight Conquergood, "Between Two Worlds: The Hmong Shaman in America" is also accompanied by a book. It is a transcribed autobiography of one of the primary figures in the video, called "I Am A Shaman." Cliff Sloane Metropolitan State University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 10:41:13 EDT From: HARVEY FORMAN Subject: MAHE"SVARA ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I would appreciate as much information as possible...in English, sigh...on the relationship of Buddha to Siva (or any other Other), and on any system "in which the Buddhism is hardly distinguished from the Hinduism." Thanks in advance, Harvey Forman harvey.forman@tigerteam.org * RM 1.3 00580 * Bakhtin said: All phenomena merge with value-judge- ments... / Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network / / Modem (510) 268-0102 info@tigerteam.org / ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 10:59:59 EDT From: "Jacqueline I. Stone" Subject: Re: CHINESE/ENGLISH SOFTWARE FOR IBM ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In response to Hun-yeow Lye: There is a a program called Twinbridge, which lets you use Chinese and English in the same document. You need an IBM PC (or compatible) of at least 286 (or higher), Windows 3.1 (or later version) and both a hard drive and high density floppy drive. For info, contact PC Express, Inc. 820 S. Garfield Ave, Suite 201 Alhambra, CA 91801 Phone: (818) 293-1661 Fax: (818) 293-1665 Best of luck, Jackie Stone ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 11:22:57 EDT From: Jim Cocks Subject: Administrivia - filelist update Franz Metcalf's draft paper *Paul Mus's Vision of Mahayana in "Total India," an Appraisal* is available from the buddha-l filelist. To receive it send a mail message: Send to: listserv@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Subject: GET VISION MAHAYANA Cheers Jim Cocks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 13:57:01 EDT From: Sara McClintock Subject: Construction of Protestantism ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- A further tome worth reading in considering the question of Asian "influence" on European constructions of identity is Wilhelm Halbfass' _India and Europe: An Essay in Understanding_, (Albany: State Univer- sity of New York Press, 1988). Although this remarkable book delves more into the continental (as opposed to the British) and the philo- sophical (as opposed to the theological) aspects of the question of the construction of both European and Indian identities, its useful- ness in any investigation concerning the construction of Proestant identity in the face of an encounter with India is evident. While avoiding the naive position that the encounter between Indian and Europe has been one in which the interests of the two sides have been in any way "the same," Halbfass nonetheless shows us how *both* sides have been irrevocably changed through that encounter. For an under- standing of how the encounter with India profoundly altered the course of European (and especially German) religion, philosophy and science, the first half of the book, entitled "India in the History of European Self-Understanding" is highly recommended. The seccond half of the book, "The Indian Tradition and the Presence of Europe" is equally illuminating; in it we find the more usual kind of analysis concerning Europe's influence on India. Halbfass does not pretend to be exhaust- ive in his treatment of this issue. Rather, as he makes clear in his preface, he sees the book as "an attempt to clarify some of the his- torical presuppoitions of their mutual understanding" (p. ix). At the same time, this book is packed with information, so that most readers will not be disappointed. What has impressed me about Halbfass' book is simply that within the popular sphere of the rhetoric concerning the "Orientalist" encounter with India, he has not neglected the very real and significant fact that it was an encounter in which both sides emerged as changed. And indeed in some ways, he seems to argue, it was Europe that changed the most. I hope this helps you in your research, Brian. I've been enjoying the discussion that your initial posting has generated. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 14:03:06 EDT From: Nobuyoshi Yamabe Subject: Mahe"svara ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This is just a quick response to Harvey Forman. Jean Naudou's book mentioned by Nobumi Iyanaga has been translated into English (_Bud- dhists of Ka"smiir_, Delhi: Agam Kala Prakashan, 1980). The quoted passage reads in English as follows (p.265, I omit the Sanskrit): (begin quote:) . . . invoking He who, pure unconditioned light, im- poses karmic links in time and space, Jonaraaja proclaims: "Whether He be the aatman or whether He be "Siva or indeed Hari, whether He be Brahmaa of the Buddha or yet again the Jina, let us render to Him supreme homage!" (:end quote) With best wishes, Nobuyoshi Yamabe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 14:57:38 EDT From: John McRae Subject: Re: CHINESE/ENGLISH SOFTWARE FOR IBM ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear Hun Lye and other buddha-hellions: At the Cornell CJK-CDF (see below) we're experimenting with TwinBridge under Windows. Seems to work OK with Microsoft Word and PageMaker, and it has the advantage of allowing input of both Chinese and Japanese simultaneously (if you buy both Chinese and Japanese packages, of course). Although they say it works with FrameMaker, we haven't found this to be the case yet. For other Chinese-capable software, check out the FAQ on ccnet-l (ccnet-l@uga.uga.edu), to which you may subscribe by sending the standard request (sub ccnet-l firstname lastname) to listserv@uga.uga.edu. We hope to have a gopher server established Real Soon Now (as Jerry Pournelle would write), but all the infor- mation is out there on ccnet-l or at ftp sites such as ifcss.org [129.107.1.155]. Check out ifcss.org:/software/catalogue and /software/dos/editor, etc. The address/phone information for TwinBridge is: PC Express, Inc. 820 S. Garfield Ave., #201 Alhambra, CA 91801 818/293-1661 fax/293-1665 fax-back service 818/791-0578 ext. 881, 882, 883 How do I (sort of) know this stuff? Check out the hyper-inflated title below. -- John, a.k.a. The Internet Satan (and that's another story!) ===================================================== John R. McRae, Associate Professor of Asian Religions Director, Cornell Chinese-Japanese-Korean Computing and Database Facility Department of Asian Studies Rockefeller 389 Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853-2502 tel: 607/255-1328 e-mail: jrm5@cornell.edu ====================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 15:23:41 EDT From: Pasi Sorjonen Subject: Re: Western worldview and Buddhism - continuing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Yes Shane. I think we can never overstress the incapability of western thinking. It has made us strangers to our own being. As we still always are already connected to the reality it generates a strange situation where we treat the nature - the world - as something other. And here we have it: the great and famous problem of subject and object... But where do we trace the beginning of this kind of thinking or culture? Does it really matter? Yes if it is to lead us to get over with it. Something like this is being done with Derridas deconstruction or with some of the Heideggers "methods". But still it seems that we are left within the words - the words that treat the world as a subject. I think that for many westerns these kind of notions have been the reasons to enter into the field of buddhism. It is the step when we see that our great thinking does not fit the world. But sadly there are those who are not trying to change the thinking but change the world. But is it so that the one who is "right" is the one who'll be smashed? Is the buddhist way more vulnerable? What did I say? I don't know. Loving * * * * * * * * * * * * * Pasi Sorjonen sopail@tukki.jyu.fi ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 3 May 1994 to 4 May 1994 ************************************************* From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Thu May 5 16:07:37 1994 Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 16:00:38 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 4 May 1994 to 5 May 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 9 messages totalling 237 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Buddhist.Bitnet List (2) 2. Protestant Buddhism (2) 3. Watazumi Doso Roshi 4. Videos 5. Lazy? Spiritually immature? 6. Takuan Soho (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 09:00:08 EDT From: Leigh Charles Goldstein Subject: Re: Buddhist.Bitnet List While this is a personal message, I post it on account it may be of interest to others on the list wishing to subscribe to lists located at BITNET sites from Interent only sites. I would like to second Leigh's recommendation to ask your local computer center or computer consultants for the preferred Internet/BITNET gateway for your site. --Jim --------------------- ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Wed, 4 May 1994, Bill Upton-Knittle wrote: > Sorry to bother you, but I'm having a heck of a time attempting to > address listserv@jpntuvmO.bitnet to join the Buddhist list you > mentioned in a recent post. > > The UCLA mailserver keeps saying that the above does not supply an > address pathway. Is this the correct address or am I leaving something > out. > You have to find a bitnet gateway to reach buddhist from the internet. I use "buddhist%jpntuvm0.bitnet@vaxf.colorado.edu" The internet host in this address is a bitnet gateway. It will pass the message to the bitnet, stripping the latter half of the message and converting the '%' to a an '@', so the message reaches its proper destination of buddhist@jpntuvm0 on the bitnet. However, it would certainly be preferable to find a bitnet gateway nearer your own internet node. Your friendly sysop should be able to give you one. Otherwise, you are sending (and receiving) your messages via Boulder, Colorado. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leigh Charles Goldstein goldstel@essex.hsc.colorado.edu voice: 303-478-5292 (USA) CIS 70304,211 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 09:04:54 EDT From: B Bocking Subject: Protestant Buddhism ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- My thanks to various contributors, recently John Dunne and Sara McClintock who have elaborated on the construction of protestantism in the West. I am currently disappearing under end-of-year marking etc. so cannot come back in any learned way, plus I should read Imagining India and India and Europe: An Essay in Understanding before doing so... I too have enjoyed and been very interested in the different strands that emerged after the intial posting on this subject. Thanks again everyone. Brian Bocking ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 09:06:22 EDT From: Michael Monhart Subject: Re: Watazumi Doso Roshi ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re the shakuhachi-playing Watazumi Doo, you can find a short reference in Blasdel, Christopher 1988 _The Shakuhachi: A Manual for Learning_ Tokyo: Ongaku no tomo sha ISBN 4-276-13351-3 Michael Monhart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 09:08:35 EDT From: B Bocking Subject: Videos ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- responding to John McRae re Films of Asian religions in America Going back PTT (pre-Tina Turner), the soldier escorted by Jack Nicholson in 'The Last Detail' got involved in a Nichiren Shoshu chanting session (as I recall). Probably other period detail in that film as well, such as hair below the collar, which would give a sense of the length of time Buddhism has been part of Western life. Nostalgically, Brian Bocking ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 09:11:52 EDT From: Erik Davis Subject: Lazy? Spiritually immature? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Coming to the close of another semester and another survey course dealing with Buddhism, I am finally stuck with a conflict that I can- not resolve to my satisfaction. One person in my class tells me that The Shingon and Zen Buddhists could be perceived as being Spiritually immature and impatient by their assertion (especially prevalent among Shingon-adherents, I believe) that Buddha-hood can be achieved in this very lifetime (Shingon takes it even further I believe, with the con- cept of Sokushin-Jobutsu, becoming the Buddha in this very body). I tried to rationalize this to my fellow student by saying that early Buddhism was formulated out of a culture that took reincarnation as basic truth, as an incontrovertible fact, and that in the transmission of Buddhism to other countries that did not accept (or even have the concept of reincarnation) this notion, the ability to 'speed up the enlightenment' process became a necessity. My Buddhist philosophy is poorly tuned, I'm afraid, and perhaps I'm struggling with something that should not be struggled with. However, Is this a question that can be resolved in a philosophical way, and not just one that must only be viewed from a historical context? On a related topic, How does the philosophy of Shingon apply the idea of 'non-literal reincarnation' to its teachings? Here I refer to Kukai's Hierarchy of the Teachings, where he places third from the bottom only two places above those who are 'no better than animals!) "those who believe in Taoism, the Hindu schools, as well as Buddhists who _literally_ [underline mine] believe in rebirth. These are people who are attached to their own ego and its preservation" quoted from Matsunaga, Daigan and Alicia, _Foundations of Japanese Buddhism_, Vol. 1. (pp. 181) Help and clarification would be greatly appreciated....(and you'll get merit!) -erik ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 09:44:55 EDT From: Rodger Kamenetz Subject: Re: Buddhist.Bitnet List ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- While Leigh Goldstein's advice to Bill Upton-Little is quite helpful, please note that Bill has an incorrect address for buddhist. He has an "oh" where he should have a "zero". buddhist@jpntuvm0 is correct. Rodger Kamenetz enrodg@lsuvm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 11:21:31 EDT From: Damien Keown Subject: Re: Protestant Buddhism ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- B.Bocking's posting mentioned: , plus I should read >Imagining India and India and Europe: An Essay in Understanding.. *********** Both are very good, particularly the Halbfass volume. I don't know if it's already been mentioned, but another excellent work on European/ Asian cultural interaction from an historical perspective is _Asia in the Making of Europe_ by Donald F.Lach and Edwin J.van Kley (Chicago: University of Chicago Press). The last volume (vol 3) was published in 1993. ************************************************* Damien Keown HSA01DK@gold.ac.uk Department of Historical & Cultural Studies University of London, Goldsmiths' College London UK, SE14 6NW Voice (+44) 071 692 7171 Fax: (+44) 071 694 8911 ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 14:45:44 EDT From: Antal Prokec Subject: Takuan Soho ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear Subscribers, I am working on a paper on Takuan Soho and wonder if any of you know any primary and secondary literature available in English, Dutch and German. I would be most grateful for your suggestions. I already have "The Unfettered Mind" by Takuan Soho himself (in English) and D.T. Suzuki's "Zen and Japanese Culture". Thank you for your help in advance. Antal Prokec aprokec@epas.utotronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 15:28:11 EDT From: Windsor Viney Subject: Re: Takuan Soho ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- A book containing translations of both of Takuan's "Fudochi Shinmyo Roku" and "Taia Ki" is Sato, Hiroaki (trans.) *The Sword and the Mind* Woodstock, New York: The Overlook Press, 1986 ISBN 0-89751-209-1 (cloth); 0-89751-256-3 (paper) This book has fairly good apparatus, and not a bad (though obviously now outdated) bibliography. The centrepiece of the book (and the reason it might otherwise be missed, since the LC data mentions only this translation) is Yagyu Munenori's "Hyoho Kadensho." I also saw a volume containing stories/anecdotes about Takuan at Banyen Books in Vancouver, British Columbia last August (how's that for bibliographic specificity!). That shop's voice telephone line is (604) 732-7912. It might be worth a call to them to see if they still know about it. Hope this helps. Windsor Viney ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 4 May 1994 to 5 May 1994 ************************************************* From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Fri May 6 16:06:14 1994 Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 16:00:17 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 5 May 1994 to 6 May 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 9 messages totalling 324 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Lazy? Spiritually immature? (4) 2. Two Dharma Talks in Denver 3. Buddhist.Bitnet List 4. Kuukai's tantra (2) 5. Takuan Soho ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 08:55:48 EDT From: "Randall R. Scott" Subject: Re: Lazy? Spiritually immature? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Erik, For what it's worth, and without exactly addressing your question head-on, in my opinion addressing enlightenment as gradualistic and thus "attainable," on the one hand, and subitistic and thus "realiz- able," on the other, MUST be addressed historically and culturally before any philosophical angles make sense. Kuukai, of course, inher- ited a tantric Buddhism from Tibet by way of China. The tantric in- flection of enlightenment valorizes an enlightenment which is -- perhaps -- mediative between a monastic rigor (filled with textual study as well as meditative discipline) and, say, a wholely "faith"- oriented Buddhism (e.g. Shinshuu) or a phenomenalistic/aesthetical Buddhism (e.g. the Shinto-Buddhist admixture of the monk-poets of Kamakura Japan, who were filled with what they called enlightenment by a seeing a leaf blowing in the wind or a distant mountain-top dimmed by a twilight-mist. Buddhist enlightenment, in other words, in my way of thinking, is inextricably bound to the religious ambience of the culture into which it spreads. Not all Buddhists, including those of early first-millen- nium India, were philosophically oriented, and while Tibetan tantrism does have its share of scholasticism, it also emphasizes an efficacy which is less intellectually oriented and more emotive. Thus the mantra (aurality => emotivity), the mandala (imagination => emotivity), and the mudraa (imitative and imaginative as well, which => emotivity), for instance. The efficacy in tantrism in precisely, or ultimately, in the ritual, which has both gradual and immediate qualities. Kuukai, a good phenomenalistic Japanese, saw and heard and imagined something he liked and instead of settling for the "fingers pointing at the moon" (his metaphor for exotericism) used the suutras in a ritualistic way in order to enable an experience of "the moon itself." Anyway, the above will no doubt "merit" my consignment to, at least, the dominion of the hungry-ghosts, who, when they are not floating from house to house looking for table scraps, are probably doomed to listening to a kalpa-long lecture on "Music and Meaning." Randy Scott Washington University in St. Louis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 09:03:13 EDT From: Emilie Tien Hsu Subject: Re: Lazy? Spiritually immature? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear Erik, One way to explain it is the no-diffeerentiation between Sam- sara and Nirvana--there is no difference between the Pure Land and this land as it is shown in the Vimalakirti. There is also the Hua- yen scriptures, which Shingon explains as a direct experience of the Enlightenment itself. Thus, enlightenment is possible in this very lifetime. Pr. Abe of Columbia University also mentions that this type of thinking is generated in a timeperiod in which the idea of Mappo became extremely troublesome. Hope it helps, Hsu Emilie Columbia University. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 09:08:19 EDT From: John Dunne Subject: Re: Lazy? Spiritually immature? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The notion of becoming enlightened in a single life or, as it is often put, `in a single body,' is not unique to Shingon Buddhism. This doctrine finds its first appearance in the Buddhist tantric literature (although it is possible that one might find it in non-tantric works as well). As I recall, this notion appears in the *Vairocanaabhisambodhi*, the work which serves as the source for much Shingon imagery and practice. This doctrine is also well known in Tibetan Buddhism, where again it appears in a tantric context. Philosophically, the need to become enlightened in a single lifetime need not indicate laziness. On the contrary, in some Tibetan literature, for example, it is thought to indicate an intense level of compassion that drives one to attain enlightenment as quickly as pos- sible in order to alleviate the suffering of beings more effectively. Such sentiments may have similar expressions in the Indian tantras and commentaries, although I cannot cite any specific examples. As for Kuukai's concern with understanding rebirth literally, my suspicion would be that he wishes to avoid the notion that the person who dies is exactly the same as the person who is reborn. In other words, he wishes to avoid notions of an unchanging `soul.' Hence, `literal' here might mean that one thinks that exactly the same person goes on from life to life, as opposed to the continuum of a person. My interpretation, however, is based only on the application of cer- tain general principles of Buddhist philosophy -- perhaps someone else can discuss Kuukai's statement with relation to the rest of his work. John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 09:13:46 EDT From: HOUNG JACK IN_JAY Subject: Two Dharma Talks in Denver ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- +++++++++BUDDHAUS LIGHT INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION, COLORADO++++++++ PRESENTS 2 DHARMA TALKS (FO2 XUE2 JIANG3 ZUO4) BY -------VEN. MASTER JING4 YAU4------ **Causes and Conditions** **Wealth and Riches** Chinese always say that when two people meet it is because of Rcause and conditionS (ying yuan2). But this phrase, coming from Buddhist tradition, has deep philosophical meaning. A seed planted still need sunshine and water to bear fruit. BLIA welcomes you to listen to what Sukyamuni Buddha said about how this world works. Do you need MONEY? I need money. But what is the true value of wealth and riches? Come hear the Buddhist perspective on how to manage your wealth. TOPIC: May 12th Thursday- Buddhist View of Cause and Condition 13th Friday- Buddhist View of Wealth and Riches Time: May 12th and 13th, 7:30 PM Place: I.B.P.S. Denver Dharma Hall (Associated with Fo Kuang Shan) 2530 W. Alameda Ave. (Near Federal and Alameda intersection) Denver, CO 80219 Tel: (303) 935-3889 Contact: Denver Contact James Chen 989-9916 Boulder Contact Jack Houng 440-7055 Language: Mandarin. If you need English translation please ask someone at the Dharma Hall or contact James Chen at 989-9916. _Short Bibliography of Master Jing4 Yau4_: Master was born in 1954. He was ordained a monk in April of 1982 under Ven. Master Guang3 Hua4. He was for 3 years under the guidance of Master Ying4 Xuen4, a nationally (Taiwan) recognized Buddhist teacher of the modern era. He then became the abbot of several temples and has also preached in Taiwanese prisons. Since June of 1989 he has established 4 institutions:a Buddhist youth association, a medical center, cultural education foundation, and a counseling center. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 09:14:18 EDT From: Brian O'Donovan / 'o-Dzin Tridral Subject: Re: Buddhist.Bitnet List ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I think the address "jpntuvm0.bitnet" sometimes causes confusion because it's jay-pee-enn-tee-you-vee-emm-zero (well, that's the way I say it to myself), the last character is a zero (0) not an oh (O). On some screens they look similar, 0O0O0O0O0O0O0O0O, but the computer is (unfortunately) not fooled. If you've been trying it with an oh (O), try it with a zero (0)! All the best, 'o-Dzin ( | ) 'o-Dzin Tridral Dorje -> not@nwl.com <- Brian O'Donovan ( | ) \|/ Newport Wafer-Fab Ltd, Cardiff Road, Newport, Gwent, UK \|/ (*) (*) ^vvv^ Tibetan Buddhist group information: Sang-ngak-cho-dzong, /|\ /`'|`'\ 5 Court Close, Cardiff, CF4 1JR, UK. Charity 1019886 ( | ) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 10:14:03 EDT From: John Dunne Subject: Kuukai's tantra ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Randy Scott remarks, `` Kuukai, of course, inherited a tantric Buddhism from Tibet by way of China.'' I am not at all sure that we should speak in these terms. The importance of Tibet in the transmission of the *Vairocanaabhisambodhi* to China is not too my mind well established. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 10:15:12 EDT From: Rose Bundy Subject: Re: Takuan Soho ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I feel I should respond directly to the person who made the original inquiry, but have lost that posting. Dennis Lishka at U of Wisc. Oshkosh is working on Takuan toward publication. I mentioned to him this inquiry and he expressed interest in providing any help. He can be contacted through the Dept. of Religion and Anthropology, of which he is chair. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 13:37:50 EDT From: "Nathan Katz, University of South Florida" Subject: Re: Lazy? Spiritually immature? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The idea of "becoming enlightened" or attaining arahattaa pervades the Paali canon, where the terminology is dit.t.he va dhamme. Only much later was bodhi understood as a distant goal, a development emphasized in bodhisattvayaana texts. --Nathan Katz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 13:45:56 EDT From: John McRae Subject: Re: Kuukai's tantra ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I would go even further than John Dunne does in the message copied below, to argue that Tibet was still a "consumer" rather than an "exporter" of Indian and Chinese Buddhism at the time tantra was first transmitted to China. This process of transmission no doubt began in the seventh century or even earlier, but the period of greatest activity began in the early decades of the eighth century with the careers of 'Subhaakarasi.mha, Amoghavajra, I-hsing, et al. The Chinese were "selling" Ch'an (Zen) to the Tibetans later on in the eighth century, a process that I don't think ended after the debates at bSamyes (near Lhasa) in the early 780s. Although my knowledge of such things for the Sung dynasty is very weak, I am unaware of any Tibetan influence on Chinese Buddhism prior to the Mongol Yuan dynasty. What I would like to know is, what was the nature of Tibetan Buddhism during the eighth-tenth centuries? That is, is it possible at all to see back through (or around) the orthodox mythologies of Tsong-kha-pa to the earlier period? My impression is that Tibetan Buddhism underwent a proscription and then a "restart" in, what was it, 972? (Or was that 978?) Anyway, I would suggest as a working hypothesis -- one that I will state in extreme terms to encourage your responses! -- that Tibetan Buddhism had **no influence whatsoever** outside of Tibet prior to the Mongol conquests. I have a specific reason to pose this challenge/inquiry: my interest in esoteric in medieval Yunnan. The Nan-chao and Ta-li kingdoms of Yunnan (8-13th centuries) were deeply Buddhist in religious orientation, and some authors have suggested that there was Tibetan influence. I don't see any evidence of that, but I wonder just what type of Buddhist motifs I should be looking for? -- John McRae P.S. I'll include a bibliographic note at the end of this message. ------- Forwarded Message Date: Fri, 06 May 94 10:14:03 -0400 From: John Dunne Subject: Kuukai's tantra - ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Randy Scott remarks, `` Kuukai, of course, inherited a tantric Buddhism from Tibet by way of China.'' I am not at all sure that we should speak in these terms. The importance of Tibet in the transmission of the *Vairocanaabhisambodhi* to China is not too my mind well established. ------- End of Forwarded Message Bibliographic note: I don't remember reading Randy Scott's comment; sorry if we've blown a minor error of phrasing all out of proportion. Anyway, the transmission of esoteric Buddhism from India to China and Tibet is an interesting question, so I'll add the following: The *Vairocanaabhisambodhi* -- known in Chinese as the _Ta-jih ching_ ("Great Sun Scripture," for which I use the convenience title _Mahaa-vairocana Suutra_) was translated by 'Subhaakarasi.mha in 724, based primarily on a manuscript sent from India. However, there are various references in this and other texts by 'Subhaakarasi.mha and I-hsing indicating that 'Subhaakarasi.mha did some editorial re-arranging, at the very least. The Tibetan translation was supposedly done by 'Siilendra-bodhi and dpal-brtsegs (transliterated with characters pronounced Te-chi in modern Mandarin) some thirty years later. However, there are numerous changes and additions in the Tibetan text, suggesting that if the Chinese text was used as the source text there has been substantial subsequent modification. Probably the situation involved reference to multiple manuscripts and textual traditions; it is my general impression that the texts of this phase of India tantra were still very much in flux. The bibliographic data given in the preceding paragraph is from the _Mochizuki Bukkyoo daijiten_, 4:3376c-3380a, esp 3378b and 3379c. -- John McRae, Asian Studies Cornell University jrm5@cornell.edu, 607/255-1328 ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 5 May 1994 to 6 May 1994 ************************************************* From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Mon May 9 16:30:13 1994 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 16:00:41 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 6 May 1994 to 9 May 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 16 messages totalling 536 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Kuukai's tantra (4) 2. Lama Tharchin Rinpoche (3) 3. Lazy? Spiritually immature? 4. Lazy/Spiritually Immature? Kuukai's Tantra 5. RETURNED MAIL 6. Mahe"svara in Akani.st.ha 7. Emotion (3) 8. Kuukai's tantra (Sokushin-jobutsu) 9. Kamalasila test query ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 08:54:27 EDT From: "Randall R. Scott" Subject: Re: Kuukai's tantra ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I must sincerely defer to John Dunne and John McRae regarding the question of the exact genetrices of Shingon: India, Tibet, China -- I have not examined in-depth just what admixture of the tantrisms in these cultures led to Kuukai and Japanese Shingon. But the point of Esoteric/Tantric Buddhism as ritualistically oriented -- i.e. as a Middle Way between the discipline and kalpas-long focus of the "Sacred Way" (Nangyoodo, "The Path of Difficult Practice;" and shoodo-mon, "The Way of Sages") and the more immediate, phenomenalistic, and/or subitistic approaches (e.g. Igyoodo, "The Path of Easy Practice;" joodomon, "The Pure Land Path;" and Shinshuu) -- is still perhaps valid. I suppose, in contrast to an epitheton of "laziness" being applied to tantrism, one could remark on its celebrative nature. While I haven't spoken to a bLama about this, I wonder whether he (or she?) might re- ply to the question of tantric enlightenment and lethargy with someth- ing like: "Why put-off the celebration when, with the aid of some measure of doctrinal understanding and some aural and visual stimuli and a little stretching of the imagination, you can enjoy enlighten- ment, and thus yourself, sooner than you may think." On a related note: It is my understanding that Tibetans generally consider 3 to 16 lifetimes as "subitistic." Kuukai talks about "attaining/realizing enlightenment in this very existence" (Sokushin joobutsu gi), indicating fairly clearly (per Hakeda's translation) the possibility of enlightenment in THIS lifetime. I am assuming the quick path of Tibet got quicker in Japan due to Japanese phenomenal- istic bents. Yes? No? Randy Scott Washington University in St. Louis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 08:59:59 EDT From: cesloane@maroon.tc.umn.edu Subject: Lama Tharchin Rinpoche ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- A friend of mine has been invited to participate in a religious re- treat in Switzerland, organized by a man calling himself Emaho. Also invited to the festivities is a monk called Tharchin Rinpoche. Can anyone tell me anything about either person? What might my friend (an older Ojibwe woman who conducts sweat lodges for women) expect from this gig? Thanks for any perspective you may lend. Cliff Sloane Metropolitan State University ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 09:06:04 EDT From: Marc Wachowitz Subject: Re: Lazy? Spiritually immature? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Erik wrote: > One person in my class tells me that > The Shingon and Zen Buddhists could be perceived as being Spiritually > immature and impatient by their assertion (especially prevalent among > Shingon-adherents, I believe) that Buddha-hood can be achieved in this > very lifetime. A few questions for pondering ... Who is reborn? Who achieves Buddha-hood? What is enlightenment? Is it an achievement? When does enlightenment occur if not in "this life", if not "now"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * wonder everyday * nothing in particular * all is special * Marc Wachowitz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 09:06:28 EDT From: "Dr. I. Astley" Subject: Lazy/Spiritually Immature? Kuukai's Tantra ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- John McCrae has challenged us to react to his extreme formulation of historical questions related to the influence of Tibetan Buddhism on the development of the Vajrayaana in China: > Anyway, I would suggest as a working hypothesis -- one that I will state > in extreme terms to encourage your responses! -- that Tibetan Buddhism had > **no influence whatsoever** outside of Tibet prior to the Mongol conquests. The historical questions here will not be settled until we have a reasonable idea of what was going on in Dunhuang, to name but one example. There is so much esoteric material in the manuscripts recovered from there at the beginning of the century, which among other things indicate esoteric traditions that are not identifiable elsewhere in the history of the Vajrayaana in India, China or Tibet. It would seem that there was quite a lot of experimentation going on, apart from anything else. So I would not allow John to completely escape with his challenge, although his implicit plea to direct our attention away from the strange notion that East Asia received its Vajrayaana from Tibet is more than welcome! (I may be too far away from the sunnny skies of North Carolina, but I seem to detect the vibration of Charlie Orzech's fingers hovering above his transmit button.) A further consideration in our meditations on the complexity of the topic is that the Vajrayaana reached China by the same routes that almost everything else Buddhist reached there: the northern route and the southern, via the countries of South-east Asia. Amoghavajra (705--74), for example, collected a substantial amount of material in Sri Lanka in the years 744--6. This has actually been dealt with on this list before, and I would refer you to the relevant parts of vir- tual reality. Whatever, Randy Scott's remark, ``Kuukai, of course, inherited a tantric Buddhism from Tibet by way of China,'' is certain- ly not correct, and for more reasons than have already been pointed out by John Dunne and John McCrae. Modern representatives of the Japanese Shingon-shuu are certainly fascinated by the correspondences to be found between their inherited teachings and the traditions of Tibetan Vajrayaana, but far from positing the origins of these links in Tibet, they tend to look at India (with, I am afraid, about as much success as the rest of us!). In this sense, I think there is much to be gained from drawing out some historical implications of Nathan Katz' observation: > The idea of "becoming enlightened" or attaining arahattaa pervades the > Paali canon, where the terminology is dit.t.he va dhamme. Only much > later was bodhi understood as a distant goal, a development emphasized > in bodhisattvayaana texts. This implies, for example, examining the historical and polemical roots of the development of the Mahaayaana, as well as the reasons why someone such as Kuukai should formulate his teaching (in the course of which he obviously draws on traditions that have their roots in the Mahaayaana) in the way he did. Obviously he was drawing, amongst other things, on _panjiao_ traditions, which basically, if a little unkindly, may also be described as The-spiritual-history-of- mankind-right-from-the-word-go-down-to-my-meditations-whilst-shaving- this-morning. There were, however, other factors, certainly in part of a political nature, although I think we should also remain clearly aware that we are dealing here with a gifted and creative figure, too (i.e. I would not wish to reduce Kuukai's achievements to simple pol- iticking, for example). The idea that _sokushin-joubutsu_ might indicate laziness is a polem- ical and hence emic imputation. There is, as John Dunne has pointed out, no philosophic ground for this, and the traditions themselves also insist that this path is not for the lazy or the weak-willed. It would seem that you have to be slightly crazy, but this is someth- ing else. Also, I have yet to meet a Shingon adherent who regarded _sokushin-joubutsu_ as a realistic proposition (not even the Buddha- on-a-Stick variety, _miira-butsu_), and I do not think that this has to do with my horrifyingly sub-standard karma. Finally, on a point implicit in Erik Davis' early posting, that there is a distinction to be made between ``in this very life'' and ``in this very body'': the point in Shingon doctrine is that you only have a life when you have a body, and this body is both the means to at- taining and the expression of attaining enlightenment. Speaking more broadly on Shingon thinking, I am pretty convinced that when you scratch the doctrines hard enough, you simply find a network of a basic Buddhist ideas and practices underneath. Ian Astley astley@mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE ******************************************************************** Philipps-Universitaet, FB 11 FG Religionswissenschaft Tel.: [+49] 6421 28-3662, Liebigstr. 37 -3661, D--35037 Marburg or -7035 Germany Fax: [+49] 6421 28-3944 ******************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 09:14:48 EDT From: Charles Orzech Subject: Re: Kuukai's tantra ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Fri, 6 May 1994, John Dunne wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > > Randy Scott remarks, `` Kuukai, of course, inherited a tantric Buddhism > from Tibet by way of China.'' I am not at all sure that we should speak > in these terms. The importance of Tibet in the transmission of > the *Vairocanaabhisambodhi* to China is not too my mind well established. > I have yet to find any evidence of a Tibetan transmission as early as the beginning of the 9th century. If anyone knows of such I'd love to see the evidence. Charlie Orzech ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 09:15:43 EDT From: ed.stutsman@the-spa.com Subject: RETURNED MAIL ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I know it's been asked many times in the past....but, I would like to get Tibetan fonts for IBM compatibles. Could someone send me a list of available flies? Thanks in advance to those who reply. . ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 09:16:18 EDT From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: Mahe"svara in Akani.st.ha ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re: Nobumi Iyanaga's remarks on Mahes'vara. Your posting on the Buddhist conceptions of this deity are fascinating. A question: Rudra is an aspect of S'iva in Hindu pantheons. Is this Rudra related to the demonic figure called Rudra in Tibetan Tantra? Forgive me if you've already addressed this issue in a posting. I know of two Rudras in Tantra. One is a kind of god of ego who is ritually destroyed in numerous ceremonies. The other may very well be the same character--- Matram Rudra, a disciple who was sent to Vajra Hell because he killed his guru. If anybody can give me helpful references on this, I would appreciate it. RObin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 09:16:59 EDT From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: Emotion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- What an abject mistake I made! I confused raaga with rasa! I feel like an idiot (not the first time). And I know why I made the mistake. The Musical modes used in Classical Indian music are called ragas and somebody once explained to me that each one has a distinct rasa. Is that word for the scale-like things Indian musicians play related to the word for desire? Further, I must admit that Dharmakirti's remark, now that its meaning is clarified, confuses me deeply. I don't understand how compassion can be considered a desire. Because desire denotes preference and bias. Can a being who has no self-interest have a desire? Well, actually.... of course he or she can. Hey, maybe it's not a problem. Maybe Don Lusthaus is right! I'm having an epiphany! Desire is not necessarily a kles'a! Hmmm. I wonder which of my desires are not kles'as? Perhaps I have been judging myself too harshly all these years? Hey, I'll bet some of my aggressions aren't really anger either. If passion is not passion and aggression is not aggression, then maybe ignorance is not ignorance. Maybe I'm already enlightened and didn't know it? To summarize: Compassion is a desire, because Dharmakirti says it is. Some desires are good, because they are compassion. All desires are kles'as, because desire, aggression, and ignorance are the three kles'as. Therefore, some kles'as are good, because some desires are good. Ignorance may be good, because some kles'as are good and ignorance is a kles'a. Therefore I may be good, because I am ignorant. Good here means possessing enlightened qualities. Therefore, I may be enlightened. But I am not enlightened, because I am confused. Therefore, Dharmakirti is wrong when he says that compassion is a desire, because if compassion is a desire I may be enlightened, and it is impossible that I, in my present confused state, am enlightened. robin kornman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 09:19:40 EDT From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: Emotion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dan Lusthaus's point about compassion and the 10th Bhumi is a bit of a shocker. If it is true, then some of us may have to reorganize our some of our conceptions about the nature of advanced stages on the path. He says: "it is the vestiges of desire qua compassion that keep bodhisattvas in the 10th bhuumi rather than exiting to Nirvana (part of the vow to not enter nirvana until all sentient beings are ready to go with you." I can understand how the vow of compassion, the vow of bodhicitta, would prevent a 10th Bhumi bodhisattva from entering nirvana. He or she would keep the vow no matter what. But from that it does not im- mediately follow that the 10th Bhumi bodhisattva has a desire. Does the Das'abhumika indeed say words to the effect "vestige of desire qua compassion"? It makes it sound as if a Buddha, an 11th Bhumi being, would not have compassion. robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 10:18:22 EDT From: John Dunne Subject: Re: Kuukai's tantra ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Concerning the interpretation of the emphasis on `subitism' in tantra, Randy Scott remarked: > > I suppose, in contrast to an epithet of "laziness" being applied to > tantrism, one could remark on its celebrative nature. While I haven't > spoken to a bLama about this, I wonder whether he (or she?) might re- > ply to the question of tantric enlightenment and lethargy with someth- > ing like: "Why put-off the celebration when, with the aid of some > measure of doctrinal understanding and some aural and visual stimuli > and a little stretching of the imagination, you can enjoy enlighten- > ment, and thus yourself, sooner than you may think." One might find a Tibetan teacher who would say such things, but this explanation is not the one most familiar to the tradition. All of the traditions of Tibetan Buddhism emphasize that the purpose of attaining *bodhi* quickly is to relieve the suffering of beings as soon as pos- sible. One accessible source in English is Tsong-Kha-pa, *Tantra in Tibet*, trans. J. Hopkins. See, for example, the Dalai Lama's remarks on p. 18. This passage is also cited by D. Cozort in his *Highest Yoga Tantra* (p. 31). The notion that compassion drives one's need to attain *bodhi* quickly is a common motif in the Tibetan interpretation of Tantra. Again, I suspect that this notion has precedents in Indian tantric works, but I do not recall any such passages at the moment. Randy also remarked: > > On a related note: It is my understanding that Tibetans generally > consider 3 to 16 lifetimes as "subitistic." Kuukai talks about > "attaining/realizing enlightenment in this very existence" (Sokushin > joobutsu gi), indicating fairly clearly (per Hakeda's translation) the > possibility of enlightenment in THIS lifetime. I am assuming the > quick path of Tibet got quicker in Japan due to Japanese phenomenal- > istic bents. > The Tibetans *definitely* say that a skilled tantric practioner can attain *bodhi* in a single lifetime (*tshe gcig*) or, as it sometimes expressed, in a `single body' (*lus gcig*). The works in Enlgish I cited above contain these expressions. I have seen such expressions in Indian commentaries, although precise references escape me at the moment. A famed example of a Tibet who attained Buddhahood in a single lifetime is Milarepa. John Dunne Study of Religion, Harvard University ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 11:04:17 EDT From: Dave Tilley Subject: Re: Lama Tharchin Rinpoche ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > A friend of mine has been invited to participate in a religious re- > treat in Switzerland, organized by a man calling himself Emaho. Also > invited to the festivities is a monk called Tharchin Rinpoche. > > Can anyone tell me anything about either person? What might my friend > (an older Ojibwe woman who conducts sweat lodges for women) expect > from this gig? Thanks for any perspective you may lend. > > Cliff Sloane > Metropolitan State University > I have met Lama Tharchin and have great respect and admiration for him. I am quite willing to talk in more detail in a more private forum. Please send me email at tilley@kodak.com, or post your email address. Dave Tilley tilley@kodak.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 11:04:43 EDT From: Sky Warrior* Subject: Re: Kuukai's tantra (Sokushin-jobutsu) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Besides Kukai, Saicho also used the term "sokushin-jobutsu." And some Japanese scholars have been trying to figure out who first used this term. Since Saicho died relatively young, he did not get the chance to fully explain what he meant when he used the phrase "sokushin jobutsu." This, I understand, has resulted in some rather intensive debate and development by Saicho's descendents on what "sokushin-jobutsu" really means. It has been pointed out that in the Chinese sources, the phrase "sokushin-jobutsu" is a rather obscure one - even in the works of Amoghavajra, I-hsing and other esoteric teachers. Just thought I would add my $0.02 to the thread.... Hun Lye -- Hun-yeow Lye hl2m@poe.acc.virginia.edu 304 14th Street NW, Apt 4A Charlottesville, VA 22903 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 13:31:24 EDT From: "Nathan Katz, University of South Florida" Subject: Re: Emotion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I can't resist putting in my two cents about emotions,compassion,.etc. I think many posters have been operating under a rather narrow under- standing of what emotion is from a Buddhist point of view. According yo my reading of Pali texts, emotion is a problem when and only when it is conjoined with egoism, and when it is free of egoism it is un- problemnatic, or not a kilesa. This is a simplisticrestatement of con- slusions drawn in an article in Pali Buddhist Review 4/3 (1979):53-65. "Rather than make categorical statements about the emotions, such as they should all be denied or sublimated or ignored, the Buddha is characteristically analytical. Those emotions which could be consider- ed nmgative, such as grasping and worry (upaadaana and paritassanaa), are found to be negative to the extend that they are rooted in a self (S.III.18). .. depending on the attitude one holds towards them, some emotions could be said to be worldly; and some, such as mettaa, sam.vega and karun.aa, would be nibbaanic, which is to say that they are appropriate for an arahant; and other emotions could be either worldly or nibbaanic, dpeending on their context and one's relation to them." --Nathan Katz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 13:40:11 EDT From: Lefty Subject: Re: Lama Tharchin Rinpoche ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >A friend of mine has been invited to participate in a religious re- >treat in Switzerland, organized by a man calling himself Emaho. Also >invited to the festivities is a monk called Tharchin Rinpoche. > >Can anyone tell me anything about either person? What might my friend >(an older Ojibwe woman who conducts sweat lodges for women) expect >from this gig? Thanks for any perspective you may lend. I have been a student of Lama Tharchin for almost three years now, and I can unhesitatingly recommend him, both as an excellent teacher, and a wonderful person. I gather Emaho is another of his students, but I don't know him. Lama Tharchin is the tenth holder of the Repkong Ngakpa lineage, and was asked to come to the West by His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche about ten years ago. His dharma center is the Vajrayan Foundation/Pema Osel Ling, in Corralitos, California. If you have other, more specific questions, please feel free to mail me. -- Lefty (lefty@apple.com) C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 13:41:55 EDT From: DanLusthaus Subject: Re: Kuukai's tantra ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Kuukai talks about >"attaining/realizing enlightenment in this very existence" (Sokushin >joobutsu gi), indicating fairly clearly (per Hakeda's translation) the >possibility of enlightenment in THIS lifetime. The shin of soku-shin means literally "body" and soku is a strong copula, often implying "immediately is", so the "strongest" reading would be "accomplishing/becoming Buddha immediately-in-this-very body." Dan Lusthaus Bates College dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 14:36:34 EDT From: "Wm. B. Douglas" Subject: Re: Kamalasila test query ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Does any one know of English translations of >Kamala"siila's Bhaavanaakramas. There is a French >translation by Jose van den Broeck of the first, an >Italian and French translation of the third by Cesario >Pensa and Demieville, and a partial and 'non-academic' >translation of the first by Stephan Beyer. There is also a Spanish translation of I think all three (my notes are being shipped to Britain as we speak) by Luis Gomez. Tucci, in Minor Buddhist Texts III offers a summary in English, but it is only a sum- mary. Ornan, when I get to Britain and everything gets unpacked, I've got draft translations of significant pieces of the BhK I, and notes on the other two. I'll get in touch with you directly in a couple of weeks. -wbd ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 6 May 1994 to 9 May 1994 ************************************************* From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Tue May 10 16:05:57 1994 Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 16:00:12 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 9 May 1994 to 10 May 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 2 messages totalling 119 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Emotion 2. Re : Mahe"svara ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 08:38:21 EDT From: Nobuyoshi Yamabe Subject: Re: Emotion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- As always I cannot comment on Dharmakiirti, but please let me make a few comments from the Yogaacaara point of view (I follow the _Cheng weishi lun_ in this posting). As is well known, Yogaacaara classifies mental functions (caitta) into the following six categories: sarvatraga ``universal'' viniyata ``distinct'' ku"sala ``good'' kle"sa upakle"sa ``secondary kle"sa'' aniyata ``indeterminate'' In this system, compassion (karu.naa) corresponds to non-harming (avihi.msaa), which is one of the eleven "good" (ku"sala) mental functions (Poussin, p.335). On the other hand, raaga belongs to kle"sa. The moral nature of kle"sas can be either bad (aku"sala) or "obstructed neutral" (niv.rta-avyaak.rta; ibid., p.356), but ku"salas are of course always good (p.343). Since caittas of different moral nature cannot associate with the same vij~naana at the same time, karu.naa and raaga cannot operate together (cf. p.293ff.). Caittas of different nature can associate with different vij~naanas at the same time. Therefore, it is possible that while karu.naa is work- ing with mano-vij~naana, kli.s.ta-manas is associated with raaga (in this context called aatma-sneha "attachment to oneself"). This would mean that even when we are compassionate on the conscious level, our subconsciousness may be occupied by self-love. But this probably is not what we are talking about now. On the other hand, there is another type of desire called chandas under the category of viniyata. This is a desire in a more general sense, either good or bad, that provokes vigorous effort (viirya). Accordingly, chandas can work with compassion (p.343). Actually, compassion would be impossible without desire to reach out for sentient beings. According to the explanation of Dr. Hayes, Dharmakiirti's ``raaga'' seems to refer to this kind of desire. Among the caittas, Buddhas have only sarvatraga, viniyata, and ku"sala (Poussin, p.684; cf. p.318). This means Buddhas have no raaga but have chandas and, of course, compassion. Raaga of advanced bodhisattvas is related to sa.msaara and is a bit tricky problem. In order to complete the bodhisattva practice, one must remain in the realm of sa.msaara, but, at least according to the traditional abhidharma, one is not reborn in sa.msaara without kle"sas. Therefore, one has to retain kle"sas in order to remain in sa.msaara. Presumably for that reason, some "Sraavakayaanists claimed that a bodhisattva does not cut off any kle"sa until the very last moment (just before becoming Buddha; Le Traite, p.1777; seems to refer to the theory of Sarvaastivaada, Mahaavibhaa.saa T27:780a-c). However, there are other solutions to this problem, and especially we would have to note the theory of manomaya-kaaya based on avidyaa-vaasa-bhuumi and anaasrava-karma (as opposed to the ordinary existence based on upaadaana [=kle"sa] and saasrava-karma) in the "Sriimaalaadevii. If we follow this theory, one can stay in sa.msaara without having actual kle"sas. But I'm not quite prepared to discuss this problem in detail. Perhaps somebody may want to supplement me in this regard. Nobuyoshi Yamabe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 15:48:25 EDT From: Nobumi Iyanaga Subject: Re : Mahe"svara ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hello Robin You wrote: >A question: Rudra is an aspect of S'iva in Hindu pantheons. >Is this Rudra related to the demonic figure called Rudra >in Tibetan Tantra? [...] I know of two Rudras in Tantra. >One is a kind of god of ego who is ritually destroyed in >numerous ceremonies. The other may very well be the >same character--- Matram Rudra, a disciple who was >sent to Vajra Hell because he killed his guru. If anybody >can give me helpful references on this, I would appreciate it. Yes. The "two Rudras" you mention are same as "Siva of the Hindu Pantheon. I think that the whole Tibetan tradition about Rudra is based on the Second Chapter of the _Tathaagata-tattva-sa.mgraha_, named "Triloka-vijaya" (Victory on the Tree Worlds). This is a kind of cosmic play, in which "Siva (Mahe"svara), revolted against the Buddhist Teaching, is subjugated by Vajrasattva ; finally, Mahe"svara takes refuge in the Buddhism and becomes a protector god (in the Tibetan tradition, he is then named Mahaakaala). I don't know well the Tibetan tradition, but I wrote an article on the Chinese texts related to the myth of the Second Chapter of the _Tathaagata-tattva- sa.mgraha_. You can refer to : R. A. Stein, Annuaire du College de France, Resume des cours de 1971- 1972, p. 504-505 et sq., p. 508 ; ibid., Resume des cours de 1972- 1973, p. 466, etc. ; Gustave-Charles Toussain, trad., Le Dit de Padma (Padma thang-yig), [Biblioth $B q (Jue de l $BUI (Jnstitut des Hautes Etudes Chinoises, vol. 3], Paris, Ernest Leroux, 1933, p. 24-42. In English : Ronald M. Davidson, $BRR (Jeflections on the Mahe $B'v (Jara Subjugation Myth : Indic Materials, Sa-skya-pa Apologetics, and the Birth of Heruka $BS, (J in Tthe Journal of the International Association of Buddhist Studies, vol. 14, Number 2, 1991, p. 197-235 My artcle is : N. Iyanaga, "Recits de la soumission de Mahe"svara par Trailokyavijaya", in Michel Strickmann, ed., _Tantric and Taoist Studies in honour of R. A. Stein_, III, Institut Belge des Hautes Etudes Chinoises, Bruxelles, 1985, p. 633-745. Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan. ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 9 May 1994 to 10 May 1994 ************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Wed May 11 16:54:16 1994 Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 16:02:41 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 10 May 1994 to 11 May 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 6 messages totalling 365 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Re : Kuukai's tantra (2) 2. ?Priyangum's location? 3. correspondence 4. Corrections to my messages 5. Tibet and Nan-chao ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 15:55:40 EDT From: Nobumi Iyanaga Subject: Re : Kuukai's tantra ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The _Ta-jih ching_, or the _Mahaa-vairocana-suutra_ (Taishoo vol XVIII No 848), and its commentary by Yixing and "Subhakarasi.mha (Taishoo vol XXXIX No 1796) are certainly among the most important Buddhist texts transmitted into Japan, and are also among the most studied texts in this country. In the Catalog of Taishoo (Taishoo vol. XCVIII No. 3 p. 305c-307a), one can find enumerated some 144 commentaries and sub-commentaries related to these texts, and it is evidently not all. About the Chinese translation of _Mahaa-vairocana-suutra_, what John McRae says (according to the _Mochizuki_) is certainly right. With- out adding anything substantial, I would like to recall that I wrote a little notice on the history of this translation in my paper "Recits de la soumission de Mahe"svara par Trailokyavijaya", in Michel Strick- mann, ed., _Tantric and Taoist Studies in honour of R. A. Stein_, III, Institut Belge des Hautes Etudes Chinoises, Bruxelles, 1985, p. 649- 650... I would also recall that there is a French translation of the first chapter of this suutra by Tajima Ryuujun, _Etude sur le Mahaavairocanasuutra (Dainichikyoo)_, Paris, Adrien Maisonneuve, 1936. Though not complete nor very fresh (see the date...!), this work re- mains still very useful, all the more so because the author refers to the Tibetan translation of the same suutra. John McRae writes: >... I would suggest as a working hypothesis -- one that I >will state in extreme terms to encourage your responses! >-- that Tibetan Buddhism had **no influence >whatsoever** outside of Tibet prior to the Mongol >conquests. > >I have a specific reason to pose this challenge/inquiry: >my interest in esoteric in medieval Yunnan. The Nan-chao >and Ta-li kingdoms of Yunnan (8-13th centuries) were >deeply Buddhist in religious orientation, and some authors >have suggested that there was Tibetan influence. I don't >see any evidence of that, but I wonder just what type of >Buddhist motifs I should be looking for? I personally don't know *anything* about the Buddhism of the Nan-chao and of Ta-li Kingdoms but I *will* be very interested to know anyth- ing about it (especially its esoteric aspects, if there are any...). What I know a little (but I'm not a specialist !) is the Japanese Buddhism ; and as far as I know, my impression on these topics is... very complex. On the one hand, it seems that, from the point of view of textual tradition, there is almost no evidence at all of any in- fluence of the late tantric Buddhism on the Japanese Buddhism (of course, it is well known that the Japanese monk Joojin [1011-1081] went to China in 1073 and transmitted many texts newly translated in Song dynasty, among which there were many tantric texts, but in gen- eral, these texts do not seem to have been very influential on the development of Japanese Esoterism...) ; but on the other hand, some striking similitudes can be found out between the doctrines or the rituals of Japanese Esoteric Buddhism and! those of the late tantric tradit Professor R. A. Stein pointed out some other similitudes of the same kind, between the late Indian and Tibetan tantric traditions and the Japanese tantric traditions. Certain could perhaps be ex- plained by the hypothesis of "parallel developments" ; others are perhaps more hard to explain in this way. But this is not all. From the point of view of comparative mythology, it seems that one can find out much more structural correspondences between certain Indian (sometimes the late Buddhist tantric tradit- ions, sometimes Hindu mythology itself) traditions and certain Chin- ese and/or Japanese traditions. I shall not give here any example, because it would be too long ; and also I readily admit that these similitudes are much more vague and loose than those I mentioned above. Nevertheless, there are so many of such cases that it is hard to deny all relation between these traditions. Now, how is it possible to explain these phenomenons ? My general im- pression is that there should be supposed a much more active and long interrelation between different cultures all over the East Asian world than it is generally admitted. The transmissions of tradition could have been often merely oral; many mythical motifs could have been transmitted almost "unconsciously", and could have formed new myths, etc. The Tibetan Tantric tradition could certainly have some influence on Chinese and Japanese traditions, and it is possible to suppose that this influence started a little earlier than the Yuan dynasty (but I have no evidence...); but this is certainly only a part of the influences Chinese and Japanese traditions received from outside, and is certainly not the most important among them ; more direct influence, from the Indian world to China or Japan (via Cen- tral Asia and/or via maritime route) should be supposed; and this influence did certainly not ceased after 10th or 11th century -- on the contrary, I think that it continued to be active during all the Middle Ages... This should be even more true for the Yunnan regions, because these are very near to India... But I wrote too long, about things too vague. In fact, I think that it is very hard to pick up any evidence absolutely sure to prove all what I said here. The only way to make this ever so little plausible seems to accumulate many probabilities ; but I am conscious that this is a very dangerous way to prove something. I have only to continue my endeavour in my research.... Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 09:32:45 EDT From: Charles Orzech Subject: Re: Re : Kuukai's tantra ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- RE Nobumi Iyanaga's recent missive: I agree that cultures are not as hermetically sealed as many have presumed in the past, and that certain parallels noted by Stein et.al. are intruiging. Ian Astley has also reminded us that much is going on on the edges (in Tunhuang) that is tantalizing. Yet, as far as I know, neither Henrik Sorensen nor John McRae have found any significant evi- dence of Tibetan tantrism moving into southwest China before the Yuan period. Perhaps we too often take the bait for an oral transmission where the textual evidence is silent. Certainly stuff is being passed back and forth, but I'm inclined, in the absence of any hard evidence, to see such borrowings as somatic--involving ritual performance and art--with local interpretations floated as the need and the cultural fashions dictate. I've an article coming out soon (I hope) in the monograph series from Copenhagen which argues for the re-invention of the _shih-shih_ or "ghost-feeding" rites in China by the Ming cleric Chu-hung. My point is that after the "real" transmission of these rites was disrupted in the Sung, Chu-hung reconstructed them along lines he discerned through a careful reading of esoteric texts (such as the Sarvatathagata-tattvasamgraha and the Mahavairocanabhisambodhi). The form and central mantras of the rite date from the late T'ang, but they have been through successive layers of "rearticulation." I sus- pect lots of this has gone on and that some of the parallels amount to reinvention. Charlie Orzech ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 09:41:47 EDT From: "Richard S. Cohen" Subject: ?Priyangum's location? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- According to some Buddhist traditions, most notably the Sarvastivadin, sixteen arhats remain in the world after Sakyamuni's nirvana in order to protect and preserve the Dharma. Each of these arhats is associated with a certain region. Rahula, the Buddha's son, is said to be stationed in a place called "Priyangu" or "Priyangudviipa." Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any information regarding Priyangu's location. Assistance anyone? Thanks. Richard Cohen, University of Michigan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 09:42:13 EDT From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: correspondence ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Sorry to post this in public, but someone contacted me off the list a few days about the Awakening of Faith and standardization of terminol- ogy - I unfortunately cannot find the message. Could that someone please send me another message? I'd like to discuss that further with you. Thanks. Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 10:20:14 EDT From: Nobumi Iyanaga Subject: Corrections to my messages ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I found in my last two postings some alterations of characters (in the first one), and a whole passage dropped out (in the second). Following is what I wrote, or intended to write. For the first posting, please read in the references: ----- ***** ------- R. A. Stein, Annuaire du College de France, Resume des cours de 1971-1972, p. 504-505 et sq., p. 508 ; ibid., Resume des cours de 1972-1973, p. 466, etc. ; Gustave-Charles Toussain, trad., Le Dit de Padma (Padma thang-yig), [Bibliotheque de l'Institut des Hautes Etudes Chinoises, vol. 3], Paris, Ernest Leroux, 1933, p. 24-42. In English : Ronald M. Davidson, "Reflections on the Mahe"svara Subjugation Myth : Indic Materials, Sa-skya-pa Apologetics, and the Birth of Heruka", in Tthe Journal of the International Association of Buddhist Studies, vol. 14, Number 2, 1991, p. 197-235 ----- ***** ------- For the second posting, the passage dropped out is marked with ">": ----- ***** ------- What I know a little (but I'm not a specialist !) is the Japanese Buddhism ; and as far as I know, my impression on these topics is... very complex. On the one hand, it seems that, from the point of view of textual tradition, there is almost no evidence at all of any influence of the late tantric Buddhism on the Japanese Buddhism (of course, it is well known that the Japanese monk Joojin [1011-1081] went to China in 1073 and transmitted many texts newly translated in Song dynasty, among which there were many tantric texts, but in general, these texts do not seem to have been very influential on the development of Japanese Esoterism...) ; but on the other hand, some striking similitudes can be found out between the doctrines or the rituals of Japanese Esoteric Buddhism and those of the late tantric tradition of India and Tibet. I mentioned >one of these similitudes in my paper quoted above ("Recits de >la soumission de Mahe"svara...", p. 680-681, n. 80) : it concerns >a very precise point of ritual. In the Japanese Shingon tradition, >there is a mantra and a mudraa called "mantra [or mudraa] of >the Realization of the bodhicitta" (_joo-bodaishin-shingon [or >in]_), which are the same as those described in the _Tathaagata- >tattva-sa.mgraha_ (ed. Horiuchi, paragr. 1217-1219) [there, >the mantra is called "_candrapaada-h.rdaya_", and the mudraa, >"_candrapaada-mudraa_"] ; in the commentary of this text by >Aanandagarbha, preserved in Tibetan, it is said that the >Tathaagata Candrottara posed his foot *above the left ear* of >Mahe"svara ("Siva who had been revolted against the Teaching >of the Buddhism), who, by this contact, obtained the Great >Bodhicitta. Now, in the Japanese Shingon tradition, there is a >ritual in which one places the mudraa of the Realization of >the bodhicitta *above one's left ear*. There is even a technical >term for this position, which is called the "Causal position" >[of the bodhicitta] (_in'i_)". And what is very remarkable is >that, as far as I know, it seems that there is no textual >evidence at all of this precise point of ritual in the corpus of >translated texts from Sanskrit into Chinese, that is to say >that this point of ritual seems to have been transmitted only >by oral tradition -- when ? how ?... nothing is known... Professor R. A. Stein pointed out some other similitudes of the same kind, between the late Indian and Tibetan tantric traditions and the Japanese tantric traditions. Certain could perhaps be explained by the hypothesis of "parallel develop ments" ; others are perhaps more hard to explain in this way. ----- ***** ------- I hope that this time, my words will swim better in the electronic oceans...! Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 14:12:19 EDT From: John Dunne Subject: Tibet and Nan-chao ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- John McRae's provocation concerning the potential influence of Tibetan Buddhism in 8th-13th century Yunnan has raised created less of a stir than I expected. This may in part be due to the fact that most of us who have studied Tibet know little about Yunnan, while those who have some understanding of Yunnan tend to have only secondary knowledge of Tibet. Eliot Sperling might shed light on some of these matters, but he has thus far remained the silent sage. Fortunately, ignorance has never stopped me from saying anything before, so I will blithely proceed. John asks: >What I would like to know is, what was the nature of Tibetan Buddhism >during the eighth-tenth centuries? That is, is it possible at all to see >back through (or around) the orthodox mythologies of Tsong-kha-pa to the >earlier period? These questions are not quite the same for me. The various histories available in Tibetan (but not in English) do indeed make it possible to avoid later reconstructions, for many of them precede Tshong-kha-pa's ``reformation'' (14th cent. ff). But the presence of some early historical data does not prevent the intrusion of what might be called an ``orthodox mythology.'' The use of history as legitimation is well known in Tibet, as it is in China. The exigencies and expectations of historians thus make their writings a perilous source of information: excellent examples are the writings of Chinese pilgrims who travelled to India; they are most often taken at face value, despite the lack of sufficient correlation. In pointing to the problems inherent in the sources, I am undoubtedly repeating notions familiar to most. But I think it may be worth re- calling such notions, for in the specific case of relations between China and Tibet, the urge to legtimize could easily overcome the urge for accuracy. In short, the absence of religious texts in Yunnan that indicate Tibetan influence does not in itself prove the absence of that influence. We can be sure, for example, that extra-canonical texts have been lost or destroyed -- whether any of these were of Tibetan provenance is another matter. It seems certain, however, that Tibetans had interchange with Yunnan in the period that you mentioned. Michael Aris, for instance, has mentioned to me evidence for contact with (what is now called) Thailand during the latter part of the period you mentioned. Thus, Tibetans may have travelled somewhat regularly through Yunnan, if they proceeded in that direction rather than through Burma. But for John's purposes, earlier contacts are probably more significant. During what Chris Beckwith calls the ``Imperial period'' of the Tibetan empire (7th-10th cent.), Tibetan troops and raiders marauded in many regions. On p. 141 of his *The Tibetan Empire in Central Asia*, Beckwith notes that one of the Tibetan gains in the eight century ``was the voluntary submission to Tibet of Nan-chao, a powerful kingdom in Yunnan.'' In his notes he cites Ssu-ma Kuang's *Tzu chih t'ung chien* (which, I am proud to say, I have at least heard of), Liu Hs"u's *Chiu T'ang shu* and the *Hsin T'ang shu* of Sung Ch'i and Ou-yang Hsiu. I imagine that these texts will be more familiar to John than they are to me. Although the dates mentioned by Beckwith are during the formative period of Buddhism in Tibet, I would argue that Buddhism had gained sufficient force in the Tibetan court to be part of diplomatic inter- changes. This was certainly the case with some interchanges. Even if Buddhism was not an important aspect of Tibetan culture during the initial submission of Nan-chao, we might be justified in assuming that connections between Tibet and Nan-chao continued throughout the ``imperial period''; certainly by the end of that period Tibetans could have brought distinctive brands of esoteric Buddhism to Yunnan. Understanding such interchanges would probably require the type of research that Iyanaga-san has suggested. One would need to examine liturgical texts to determine the nature of the esoteric rites prac- ticed in Yunnan of that period. One would then need to compare these with comparable Tibetan rites, and in doing so, one might uncover certain peculiarities that the liturgical systems share. The same type of analysis might reveal distinctive myths or interpretations shared between the regions. If such rites, myths, interpretations and so on seem peculiar only to Tibetan forms of practice (the Buddhisms of Mongolia, the Buriats, etc), one might then be justified in point- ing to some borrowing in Yunnan. So too, if deliberate oppositions or critiques of Tibetan forms become apparent in Yunnan, one would need to consider the effects of such opposition on the Buddhism practiced there. Obviously, such a project is no easy task, but John is a courageous fellow -- only a man of great courage could wear those neckties! :) John Dunne Sutdy of Religion, Harvard University ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 10 May 1994 to 11 May 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Thu May 12 16:10:35 1994 Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 16:00:14 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 11 May 1994 to 12 May 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There is one message totalling 91 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Thinking about passion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 11:18:42 EDT From: Richard Philip Hayes Subject: Thinking about passion The time has come to have a frank discussion about passion. The specific question that I have in mind is which (if any) terms of Buddhist psychological theory correspond to the concept of passion in classical European psychological theory. The word `passion', as I'm sure you all know, shares with the words `patient' and `passive' the fact of being derived from the Latin verb `patior' (which corresponds to the Greek `pascho', akin to `pathos'), meaning `to undergo, to suffer'. Any activity, seen from the point of view of its agent, was called an action, while the same activity, seen from the point of view of the patient, that is, the person or thing affected by it, was called a passion. A sentence in which the subject of the verb expressed the patient of an activity was said to have a passive verb. In the realm of psychology, any activity of which the soul was the principal agent was called an action of the soul, whereas any activity that took place in the soul but the agent of which was outside the soul was called a passion of the soul. Given this way of speaking of the passions, sensory awareness such as vision was a passion, since it was believed to `happen' to the soul rather than being something that the soul did on its own volition. Similarly, things that moved the soul, such as the emotions, were passions, since they happened to the soul rather than being initiated by it. This way of speaking of passions begins at least as early as Aristotle, was common through much of the Hellenistic and medieval periods, and was still essentially the way that Descartes was describing things in his _Passions of the Soul_. [Lest one get hung up on the word `soul', Descartes made it clear that he was using the term `soul' (ame) as a synonym of `mind' (esprit).] Now my question is to what extent do classical Buddhist terms (and here I must work within my own limitations and confine my discussion to Sanskrit and Pali, but am eager to hear about Chinese and other languages) correspond to the classical and medieval notions of passion. It seems to me that there is an approximate correspondence in the aabhidharmika distinction between mental properties (citta and caitasika-dharmas) that are karma and those that are karma-resultant (karma-vipaaka). Sensory awareness (vij~naana), mental and physical feelings (vedanaa) and even concepts and recognitions of patterns (sa.mj~naa) were all classed as karma-resultant; that is, from the perspective of the moment at which they are experienced, these things just `happen' to the `soul' (plug in `mental continuum' if you are a stickler for nomenclatural accuracy). In this respect, they are very much like passions. In fact of all the mental properties, only some of those that belong to the aggregate of character (sa.skaara-skandha) would *not* be passions. The few exceptions are those that are classified as karma, since these alone are actions initiated by the `mind' rather than as events that happen to it. Among the actions of the `mind' (according to abhidharma) are desire, aversion and delusion, and their opposites. The mental actions are classified in abhidharma as either competent (ku"sala) or incompetent (aku"sala). The criterion of competence is that a property is not attended by a belief in permanent individuality (and other ghastly Brahmanical dogmas) and by a desire for personal continuity. This, you may recall, is how Dharmakiirti could agree that the Buddha had desires (such as the desire to teach the dharma) but was not in serious trouble, since his desires were not incompetent or vicious in nature. So far, it seems to me that if we follow classical and medieval notions of passions and actions of the soul, then some sam.skaaras would be actions, and all other mental events would be passions. But the English term `passion' has also come to be used in another sense, which seems to refer to strong (and mostly negative) emotions. Given this usage, something like selfish desire might be called a passion (although in classical usage it is clearly an action and not a passion). Because I am cautious about the potential confusion surrounding the term `passion', I rarely use the term when talking about Buddhist psychology, but I think some people do use it. If any of you use the term `passion' when translating or discussing Buddhist theories, how are you using the term? What term are you translating by it? What kinds of things would you regard as passions, and what kinds of things would you not regard as passions? Actively yours, Richard P. Hayes Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 11 May 1994 to 12 May 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Fri May 13 16:09:17 1994 Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 16:00:38 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 12 May 1994 to 13 May 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 7 messages totalling 563 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Thinking about passion (3) 2. Tibet and Nan-chao 3. Tibetan Buddhism outside Tibet 4. Correction 5. Side issue - pricing your pleasure ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 16:34:13 EDT From: John Dunne Subject: Re: Thinking about passion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Richard's etymological discourse on passions raises several issues. One issue is the meaning of `passion' in English. In contemporary usage (and presumably that is the usage that counts), `passion' often means `any kind of feeling by which the mind is powerfully affected or moved. ' This definition is part of the sixth entry of many offered by the OED, whose compilers also remark on the `passive' sense of `passion'; that is, passion is something that happens *to* the mind, rather than something initiated by the mind. Thus, the above entry continues, `a vehement, commanding, or overpowering emotion ...' Finally the entry ends, `in psychology and art, any mode in which the mind is afected or acted upon (whether vehemently or not) ...' In short, the definitions in this entry move through a progressively stronger sense of the mind as a patient. Of these definitions and the many others given in the OED, the one that best reflects common usage is the first -- a feeling by which the mind is powerfully affected or moved. If one were to use the word passion primarily in this sense, it is unlikely that one would be misunderstood. In most cases of contemporary usage, the etymological subtleties are lost. Indeed, it is likely that any attempt to use the word in a way that relied strongly on such subtelties would be miscon- strued by the majority of readers; such usage, in short, renders `passion' a technical term that is outside the usage of many educated readers. Nevertheless, the shades of `passive' meaning implicit in `passion' do underlie much contemporary usage, although many English speakers may not be aware of such shades of meaning (I am taking here the position that persons who use language are not necessarily fully cognizant of the full implications or assumptions of their statements). That is, most speakers would not think of `passion' as an affective state which one deliberately engenders; rather, passion is often considered a state in which one has lost some self-control. Even the fairly mild usage `He has a passion for chesss' implies that the person in question could not simply ignore chess if he suddenly desired to do so; he is compelled, in some sense, to play chess. Such usages also reflect popular notions of psychology according to which one is ruled by unconscious drives over which one has little or no control. Now, it is a crucial tenet of Buddhist philosophy that one can gain control over one's mind and prevent states such as *raaga* (in the usual sense) from arising. One is not merely subject to one's environment or some unconscious drives in this regard. At first glance, then, one might wish to reject `passion' as a translation for *raaga*, opting instead for `attachment' or some such term. I myself prefer other translations in many contexts precisely because `passion' has meanings which complicate matters. But in the passage I posted, I would argue that the sense of 'being out of control' is precisely what Dharmakiirti wished to convey when he said that *karu.naa* (compassion) is *raaga* (`passion'). This sense of *raaga* is well known in poetic usage; Dharmakiirti himself notes elsewhere that feeling such as *raaga* can drive one mad, and certainly part of the notion of insanity in Indian culture of that time is that one is in some sense mentally out of control. Even in Abhidharma literature, it is not presumed that a person who experiences *raaga* _deliberately_ does so; rather, it is under the influence of confusion (*moha*) or ignorance (*avidyaa*) that beings experience *raaga* and so on. The notion that under the 'control' (*va"sa*, etc.) of their afflictive mental states (*kle"sa*) is a not infrequent motif in Buddhist literature, especially when they are considered as objects of compassion. For example, in his *Lam rim chen mo*, the Tibetan scholar Tsong Kha pa remarks: The qualities of (the Buddhas') love are as follows. Just as sentient beings are helplessly bound by their afflictive mental states, so too the Sage is helplessly bound by great compassion. And when he sees that beings are suffering, great compassion ceaselessly arises in him. In (Maat.rceta's) *Adhyardha"sataka* (of which the Sanskrit is extant) it says: All these beings are without distinction bound by their afflictive mental states; in order to free beings from those afflictions, you have long been bound by compassion (note: I have not checked the Sanskrit). rtse ba'i yon tan ni sems can rnams nyon mongs kyis rang dbang med par bcings pa bzhin du/ thub pa yang snying rje chen pos rang dbang med par bcings pas/ 'gro ba rnams sdug bsngal ba gzigs pa na thugs rje chen po rgyun chad med par skye ste/ brgya lnga bcu ba las/ 'gro ba 'di dag thams cad ni/ khyad med nyon mongs rnams kyis bcings/ kyod ni 'gro ba'i nyon mongs dag/ grol slad yun rings thugs rjes bsdams/ When Dharmakiirti uses the word *raaga* for compassion, he is not compelled to do so. Rather, he is deliberately using a word that previously had an entirely negative connotation for Buddhists, although he defines it in a way that avoid attributing any error (*viparyaasa*) to the Buddha. Why would he do so? I think that one motivation is to convey the sense in which compassion is indeed a `fetter' for the Buddha: compassion binds the Buddha to the world, and without it, he would float off into never-never land. In any case, since *raaga* can imply that one is under the control of that affective state, I would argue that `passion' is a suitable translation for the word in the passage Richard and I have discussed. John Dunne Study of Religion, Harvard University ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 08:43:39 EDT From: Charles Orzech Subject: Re: Tibet and Nan-chao ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- John(s), John Dunn's note jogged my memory about some work that Per Kverne was doing on the Bon tradition. His argument (if memory serves me this late in the day) was that the Bon tradition represented an actual Buddhist tradition and not some half shamanic rip off of later Bud- dhist imports. This might be a fruitful avenue along which to pursue some of John McRae's questions concerning Yunnan. On other matters, John ((McRae), what takes you to Taiwan and Yunnan this summer? Though I promised to send you a copy of Henrik's papers on Ta-tsu and on Ch'an & esoteric stuff in Tunhuang, he would not let them out of his hands. He did leave a paper on esoteric rituals in the Koryo court which I will send along with my recent Ratnacinta translations. Charlie Orzech ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 08:46:57 EDT From: "Randall R. Scott" Subject: Re: Thinking about passion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- John Dunne's comments bring to mind several things: John states: "Now, it is a crucial tenet of Buddhist philosophy that one can gain control over one's mind and prevent states such as *raaga* (in the usual sense) [e.g. "passion," "attachment," "desire"] from arising." While I am somewhat (but not wholly, to be sure) familiar with how in some corners of Buddhism the paradigm of absolute neutrality, utter nonattachment, and total control seem to be sometimes upheld as ideal ontological states, is it not also true that, even in the Pali liter- ature, a certain "humanistic retreat" is also upheld. Buddhaghosa in his Visuddhimagga veritably epithetizes two such quasi-condonings of attachment when he repeatedly states that his systemization is "for the purpose of gladdening good folk" (passim) and "for the sake of happy life under present conditions" (p. 861, for example -- both quotes per Pe Maung Tin's translation in the PTS edition). To be sure, the main purpose -- viewing all this from a distance, now -- of Buddhaghosa is to assist all beings in the task of "disembroil- ment" from this "tangle" -- i.e. to be even-minded, in a state of equanimity, neutral, nonattached; however, one gets the distinct im- pression (at least I did when I read the Vism. a year or so ago) that what Buddhaghosa is talking about what might be termed a state (or posture or "consciousness") of "detached entrenchment" or "entrenched detachment." On the one hand, we are to exercise and train our minds so that in leaning, as it were, into the sorrows of the world via samaadhi we may thereby channel our desire for "the welfare of all beings" (Tin, e.g., p. 136) into a "place" that is still, somehow, at least somewhat de- tached from both that desire and "all beings." On the other hand, per Tin's translation of Buddhaghosa, attachment/desire/emotivity/compass- ion -- again, I have only the skills to view this from a distance (I am not fluent in Sanskrit, Pali, or Chinese or Japanese, for that mat- ter) -- is not only delineated implicitly as an inescapable fact of phenomenal life but is explicitly articulated as a goal of religious (i.e. Buddhist) awareness as well. Buddhaghosa (and I use him as the illustration here due to the "South- ern Buddhism" emphasis of this list) appears to me to being saying something like: When one follows upon the road toward Purmyokity un- til he has -- through sila and samaadhi -- attained prajna (under- standing), he himself becomes the Path." The Path, it has seemed to me per the Vism., has to do with a Middle Way between the suffering caused by being at the "mercy" of life, fighting change, and being wholly dependent upon "the others" (cf. R.D. Laing), on the one hand, and the suffering that arises from an absolute disregard for life and change and "the others," on the other. Oh well, I've waxed, or waned, as the case may be, in ignorance here long enough. Randy Scott Washington University in St. Louis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 09:02:33 EDT From: SPERLIN@ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Tibetan Buddhism outside Tibet ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Alas, John Dunne has smoked me out of my hideout and forced me into the fray that's built up around John McRae's proposition (pur- posely phrased in extreme terms) that Tibetan Buddhism had **no influence whatsoever** outside of Tibet prior to the Mongol con- quests. For me, it is clear that Tibetan Buddhism was active in at least one important place outside Tibet proper before the Mongol period: the Tangut realm. Mongol interest in Tibetan Buddhism was not sui generis; it followed from Tangut involvement with Tibetan Buddhism. It is significant that Mongol interest began with the prince who held sway over the former Tangut lands, Koden; that interest clearly derived from earlier Tangut contacts with Tibetan monks. Tibetan sources mention several Bka'-brgyud-pa monks who were present at the Tangut court, including Gtsang-po-pa Dkon-mchog seng-ge (?-1218/1219), who was dispatched there by the first Karma- pa, Dus-gsum mkhyen-pa. Of particular interest, however, is Rtsa-mi lo-tsaa-ba Sangs-rgyas grags-pa (fl. 12th century), who was very active in Tibet and in India, but whom Tibetan sources identify as a Tangut. He is particularly associated with a number of texts dealing with Mahaakaala, including on the means to usurp royal power through reliance on Mahaakaala. Given Koden's political activities (he is mentioned in Tibetan sources as being one of the important figures who placed Qubilai on the throne) his interests in imperial Tibetan Buddhist traditions in the former Tangut realms would seem obvious. In fact, Tibetan sources come to designate him as an incarnation of one of the earlier Tangut rulers. On Tibetan-Tangut links one should see R.A. Stein, "Mi-nag et Si-hia," *Bulletin de l'Ecole Francaise d'Extreme-Orient* XLIV (1951), pp. 223-265 and "Nouveaux documents tibetains sur le Mi- nag/Si-hia," in *Melanges de Sinologie offerts a Monsieur Paul Demieville* (Paris, 1966), pp. 281-289. I have two small pieces dealing with some of the points raised in this posting: "Rtsa-mi lo-tsaa-ba Sangs-rgyas grags-pa and the Tangut Background to Early Mongol-Tibetan Relations," in Per Kvaerne, ed., *Proceedings of the 6th International Seminar on Tibetan Studies*, Oslo, forthcoming (actually it should be out within the next 6-8 weeks); and "'Lama to the King of Hsia'" *The Journal of the Tibet Society*, vol. 7, 1987. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 09:03:46 EDT From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Re: Thinking about passion ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Richard Hayes writes: >it seems to me that if we follow classical and medieval >notions of passions and actions of the soul, then some sam.skaaras >would be actions, and all other mental events would be passions. The differentiation into active and passive modes, so important since Aristotle (and still critical as late as Spinoza, with his natura naturans [nature naturing] and natura naturata [nature natured]) in Western philosophy and psychology, is not as clearly etched in Indian thought. Sa.mskaara is a perfect example. On the one hand it signif- ies accumulated karmic experience and the influence of past experien- ces on present actions. This accumulation and influence would fall under the "passive" heading in Western terms. But its most common homonym from the Nikaayas through the later abhidharma literature is cetanaa, which, as "volition", would clearly fall under the "active" heading in western thought. It seems to me that the distinction betwe- en active and passive in Indian thought, especially Buddhist thought, is more fluid than its Western counterparts. That is one of the reas- ons that questions like "what about free will in Buddhism" keep being raised (as they were a while back here in buddha-hell); we are not used to recognizing that fluidity. Past conditioning (=passive mode) does not entail a hard determinism in Buddhism; one can always inter- rupt the conditioned sequence through insight, practice, realization, etc. In some texts, such as the ch'eng wei-shih lun, elaborate theor- ies of seed sequences causally regenerating themselves from the begin- ningless past - consisting of separate streams of beginningless ku'sala seeds and aku'sala seeds - are posited and explained with great detail, to account for "action" in a way that never quite be- comes either purely active nor purely passive. In Buddhism, what makes an action an action (karma) is intent, not the autonomy of the agent. It is largely prior conditioning that generates intent (cetanna IS sa.mskaara). That's one of the reasons many Bud- dhists found it natural to attribute all the insights and actions of the Buddha to actions he had already experienced prior to being born as Siddhaartha Gotama. > If any of you use the >term `passion' when translating or discussing Buddhist theories, how >are you using the term? What term are you translating by it? What >kinds of things would you regard as passions, and what kinds of >things would you not regard as passions? It is not uncommon for people translating from the Chinese of Japanese to translate the East Asian correlates of kle'sa as "passions." I, however, am one of those incorrigible resistance fighters against over-popularization, and translate those terms with the unhelpful "kle'sa". Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 09:19:01 EDT From: "Randall R. Scott" Subject: Correction ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I beg your respective pardons. The phrase "the welfare of all beings" does NOT appear on p. 136 of the Visuddhimagga as translated by Tin. That's what I get for being in a hurry, logging-on during a crowded (i.e. slow keyboard-response) time, looking at an old piece of work (of mine) misreading it at that, and being sloppy. (Generally, though, I have found the Theravaadin exemplary figure, per the Vism., to mediate somewhat between the arhat and the bodhisattva, and so in my reading the Vism. does provide for an "outreach" (attachment?, or is this a too-loaded term to use?) not totally dissimilar from the Mahaayana paradigm. Randy Scott Washington University in St. Louis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 10:16:30 EDT From: "Michael Maranda (by way of dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Dan Lusthaus)" Subject: Side issue - pricing your pleasure Dan was kind enough to pass this along for consideration. Since e-mail is certainly an item of interest to all of us on this list and this has to do with the current thinking on its cost, I'm forwarding it to the list for information purposes. I'd suggest we not devote BUDDHA-L to the discussion of Internet pricing considerations as there are other lists devoted specifically to Internet issues (Info-Nets@Think.com or is bitnet peer INFONETS@UGA for instance). At least may we keep our discussion informative. I have heard for some time now that since the net has grown so much there will be a revised charging scheme. What and how much we will certainly hear more about. This is perhaps the first volley. --Jim =========================Original message================================= Forgive me if this isn't for real but I did pull it off a reputable mailing list (geography) and I am scared. It looks legit .. and hey, if it isn't, it own't hurt to repond as it doesn't cost anything (yet). There but for the grace of ... whatever ... go I. Dan ___________________________________ TAXPAYER ASSETS PROJECT - INFORMATION POLICY NOTE May 7, 1994 - Request for signatures for a letter to NSF opposing metered pricing of Internet usage - Please repost this request freely The letter will be sent to Steve Wolff, the Director of Networking and Communications for NSF. The purpose of the letter is to express a number of user concerns about the future of Internet pricing. NSF recently announced that is awarding five key contracts to telephone companies to operate four Internet "Network Access Points" (NAPs), and an NSF funded very high speed backbone (vBNS). There have been a number of indications that the telephone companies operating the NAPs will seek permission from NSF to price NAPs services according to some measure of Internet usage. The vBNS is expected to act as a testbed for new Internet pricing and accounting schemes. The letter expresses the view that metered pricing of Internet usage should be avoided, and that NSF should ensure that the free flow of information through Internet listserves and file server sites is preserved and enhanced. Jamie Love, Taxpayer Assets Project (love@essential.org; but unable to answer mail until May 15). Until then, direct inquires to Michael Ward. If you are willing to sign the letter, send the following information to Mike Ward of the Taxpayer Assets Project (mike@essential.org, fax: 202/234-5176; voice: 202/387-8030; P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036): Names: ___________________________ Title: ___________________________ (Optional) Affiliation: ____________________________________ (for purposes of identification only) Address: ______________________________________ City; St, Zip ________________________________ Email Address: _____________________________________ Voice: __________________________________ for verification) The letter follows: Steve Wolff Director Division of Networking and Communications National Science Foundation 1800 G Street Washington, DC 20550 Dear Steve: It is our understanding that the National Science Foundation (NSF) and other federal agencies are developing a new architecture for the Internet that will utilize four new Network Access Points (NAPs), which have been described as the new "cloverleaves" for the Internet. You have indicated that NSF is awarding contracts for four NAPs, which will be operated by telephone companies (Pac Bell, S.F.; Ameritech, Chicago; Sprint, NY; and MFS, Washington, DC). We further understand that NSF has selected MCI to operate its new very high speed backbone (vBNS) facility. There is broad public interest in the outcome of the negotiations between NSF and the companies that will operate the NAPs and vBNS. We are writing to ask that NSF consider the following objectives in its negotiations with these five firms: PRICING. We are concerned about the future pricing systems for Internet access and usage. Many users pay fixed rates for Internet connections, often based upon the bandwidth of the connection, and do not pay for network usage, such as the transfer of data using email, ftp, Gopher or Mosaic. It has been widely reported on certain Internet discussion groups, such as com-priv, that the operators of the NAPs are contemplating a system of usage based pricing. We are very concerned about any movement toward usage based pricing on the Internet, and we are particularly concerned about the future of the Internet Listserves, which allow broad democratic discourse on a wide range of issues. We believe that the continued existence and enhancement of the Internet discussion groups and distribution lists is so important that any pricing scheme for the NAPs that would endanger or restrict their use should be rejected by the NSF. It is important for NSF to recognize that the Internet is more than a network for scientific researchers or commercial transactions. It represents the most important new effort to expand democracy into a wide range of human endeavors. The open communication and the free flow of information have make government and private organizations more accountable, and allowed citizens to organize and debate the widest range of matters. Federal policy should be directed at expanding public access to the Internet, and it should reject efforts to introduce pricing schemes for Internet usage that would mimic commercial telephone networks or expensive private network services such as MCI mail. To put this into perspective, NSF officials must consider how any pricing mechanisms will change the economics of hosting an Internet electronic mail discussion groups and distribution lists. Many of these discussion groups and lists are very large, such as Humanist, GIS-L, CNI-Copyright, PACS-L, CPSR-Announce or Com-Priv. It is not unusual for a popular Internet discussion group to have several thousand members, and send out more than 100,000 email messages per day. These discussion groups and distribution lists are the backbones of democratic discourse on the Internet, and it is doubtful that they would survive if metered pricing of electronic mail is introduced on the Internet. Usage based pricing would also introduce a wide range of problems regarding the use of ftp, gopher and mosaic servers, since it conceivable that the persons who provide "free" information on servers would be asked to pay the costs of "sending" data to persons who request data. This would vastly increase the costs of operating a server site, and would likely eliminate many sources of data now "published" for free. We are also concerned about the types of accounting mechanisms which may be developed or deployed to facilitate usage based pricing schemes., which raise a number of concerns about personal privacy. Few Internet users are anxious to see a new system of "surveillance" that will allow the government or private data vendors to monitor and track individual usage of Information obtained from Internet listserves or fileserves. ANTI-COMPETITIVE PRACTICES We are also concerned about the potential for anti- competitive behavior by the firms that operate the NAPs. Since 1991 there have been a number of criticisms of ANS pricing practices, and concerns about issues such as price discrimination or preferential treatment are likely to become more important as the firms operating the NAPs become competitors of firms that must connect to the NAPs. We are particularly concerned about the announcements by PAC-Bell and Ameritech that they will enter the retail market for Internet services, since both firms were selected by NSF to operate NAPs. It is essential that the contracts signed by NSF include the strongest possible measures to insure that the operators of the NAPs do not unfairly discriminate against unaffiliated companies. Recommendations: As the Internet moves from the realm of the research community to a more vital part of the nation's information infrastructure, the NSF must ensure that its decisions reflect the needs and values of a much larger community. 1. The NSF contracts with the NAPs operators will include clauses that determine how the NAP services will be priced. It is important that NSF disclose and receive comment on all pricing proposals before they become final. NSF should create an online discussion list to facilitate public dialog on the pricing proposals, and NSF should identify its criteria for selecting a particular pricing mechanism, addressing the issue of how the pricing system will impact the Internet's role in facilitating democratic debate. 2. NSF should create a consumer advisory board which would include a broad cross section of consumer interests, including independent network service providers (NSPs), publishers of Internet discussion groups and distribution lists, academic networks, librarians, citizen groups and individual users. This advisory board should review a number of policy questions related to the operation of the Internet, including questions such as the NAP pricing, NAP operator disclosure of financial, technical and operational data, systems of Internet accounting which are being tested on the vBNS and other topics. 3. NSF should solicit public comment, though an online discussion group, of the types of safeguards against anticompetitive behavior by the NAPs which should be addressed in the NSF/NAPs contracts, and on issues such as NAPs pricing and Internet accounting systems. --------------------------------------------------------------------- TAP-INFO is an Internet Distribution List provided by the Taxpayer Assets Project (TAP). TAP was founded by Ralph Nader to monitor the management of government property, including information systems and data, government funded R&D, spectrum allocation and other government assets. TAP-INFO reports on TAP activities relating to federal information policy. tap-info is archived at ftp.cpsr.org; gopher.cpsr.org and wais.cpsr.org Subscription requests to tap-info to listserver@essential.org with the message: subscribe tap-info your name --------------------------------------------------------------------- Taxpayer Assets Project; P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036 v. 202/387-8030; f. 202/234-5176; internet: tap@essential.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________ Michael Maranda mm017g@uhura.cc.rochester.edu ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 12 May 1994 to 13 May 1994 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Wed May 25 00:34:59 1994 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 16:01:17 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 23 May 1994 to 24 May 1994 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 7 messages totalling 198 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Japanese women ascetics (2) 2. Buddhist typeface 3. About the enigmatic 'Dayou-jing' of the Renwang-jing 4. arhat and jivanmukta 5. Paali Canon on disk? 6. Suicide and Buddhism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 16:22:12 EDT From: Paul Watt Subject: Re: Japanese women ascetics ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Apologies for the garbled posting. It should have read: "Paul Arai's questions are to the point. At this stage, I can not reply specifically to all of them, but perhaps I can pass on some sense of my understanding of asceticism and the comparative context I have in mind by referring to one or two sources dealing with Christ- ianity. Peter Brown, in _The Body and Society_, writes of the ascetic life of women in the fourth century in the eastern Mediterranean. In one passage, he compares Christianity to Buddhism (though not Japanese). "In many world-renouncing religions, the growth of forms of heroic asceticism, associated with extreme self-mortification, with physical danger, with mobility, and with the loss of convential social identity, tended to drain prestige away from pious women. Only men were considered able to practice such asceticism appropriately. In Buddhist Ceylon, for instance, after a short period, "Nuns left the stage of history as quietly as as they had occupied it." (quoting Gunawardana, _Robe and Plough_) Yet this did not happen in the Christianity of the fourth century. . . " (pp. 262-263) And he goes on to develop his case. Another study that I have found useful in thinking about women ascetics is Rudolph Bell's _Holy Anorexia_, a study of 170 women who lived from 1200 to the present in Italy and who were officially recognized by the Catholic Church as "saints, blesseds, venerables, or servants of God." The title of the book hints at the inclinations of these ladies. The questions I am pondering are (1) are there such women in Japan (the question may be asked without regard to historical period, though I am most interested in the pre- modern), (2) if there are, where might one find documentation of their lives, and (3) if not, why not. There are, of course, nuns in Japan, but their lives need not (and in many cases surely did not involve) much asceticism. It is with the second question listed above that I thought members of list may be able to offer some quick direction. Paul Watt Asian Studies, DePauw Univ. PWATT@DEPAUW.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 09:05:12 EDT From: HMARAIP@usthk.ust.hk Subject: Re: Japanese women ascetics ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Paul Watts, Given the approach you seem to be beginning with, it strikes me that you might want to move more slowly and carefully in your investigation. It is not so easy to compare Christian women ascetics in Europe or even Buddhist nuns in Ceylon to women in Japan (it seems you are not concerned with what religious tradition they are engaged in, no?) who one might be able to define as ascetics. There are several issues that I can easily imagine will prove to be a nightmare of complexity. For starters, even if you can find adequate information on Japanese women ascetics, comparing the meaning of the ascetic practices cross-culturally and across religious traditions will take up a large portion of your investigation. The issue of how these women constructed their gender in their respective religious, historical and social contexts will also require careful inquiry before anything of substance could emerge. The quote you cite from _The Body and Society_ immediately makes me question what the women thought of their own ascetic practices. Women's views of themselves and androcentric views of the same women are frequently at odds with each other. So, be aware. Also, have you heard that Buddhist "nuns" in Sri Lanka are now organizing their efforts to get full ordination? Further, you suggest that the title _Holy Anorexia_ will immediately tell me something about "the inclin- ation of these ladies." Actually, the title does not tell me as much about these ladies as it tells me about the author's interpretation of these ladies. If it were me, I would NOT interpret the lack of readily accessible materials on Japanese women ascetics as an indication that there weren't any; there weren't enough to write about; they were not significant enough to write about. I would merely assume that I will have to do a lot of original research. I would begin the research with finding out what kinds of activities women were engaged in, and then examine whether they could be called ascetics. Then I would probably end up with re-defining the use of the word ascetic to fit thereligious, historical and cultural context. Only then would I dare to compare them to women in other contexts. With all this in mind, this book in Japanese might be useful to you: Oosumi Kazuo and Nishiguchi Junko, eds., _Miko to Joshin_ (Tokyo: Heibonsha, 1989) I realize this might not be the kind of response that you were looking for, but I give it with all sincere hope that you will make a valuable contribution to the field. Paula Arai Hong Kong University of Science & Technology ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 09:16:15 EDT From: Michael Farmer Subject: Re: Buddhist typeface ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Monotype have a product for both PC (with Windows + ATM) and Mac called FontMixer - This allows you to customise any PS type 1 font - add accents, shuffle the characters around, alter your keyboard etc. It comes with a PS font of over 440 characters including most accents imagianable. This might do the job you require. -Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 11:05:05 EDT From: Charles Orzech Subject: Re: About the enigmatic 'Dayou-jing' of the Renwang-jing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Iyanaga san, At last, a substantive reply to the _Ta-yu ching_ puzzle! Many many thanks indeed. By the way, in your reply to John you don't mention the eighth century reference to Mahaakaala in _Jen-wang ching_ (the version by Amoghavajra: T246 8.840b7). Charles D. Orzech ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 13:15:59 EDT From: Andrew Fort Subject: arhat and jivanmukta ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Thanks to the people who responded to my inquiry about the arhat and jiivanmukta. I am working on a book on the concept of jiivanmukti in Advaita Vedaanta, and the comparison/contrast with Buddhist ideas is helpful. Re Ramana Maharshi: his recorded remarks on j-m are usually brief and only in response to questions. His longest response is in the first of his collected works "Self-Inquiry," recorded when he was just 22 and living in a cave on Arunachala hill. He said the jiivanmukta realizes he is not the body, but the self/brahman. He also holds that the j-m remains embodied due to praarabdha karma, though he is still a detached Self-knower. And, as Stanley Rice's quote indicates, Ramana finds distinctions between embodied and bodiless (videha) mukti unreal from the "highest truth." Andrew O. Fort, Religion Dept. RQ021RE@TCUAMUS Texas Christian University (817) 921-7440 Fort Worth, TX 76129 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 13:59:44 EDT From: Mathieu Boisvert Subject: Paali Canon on disk? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I know that this question has been asked too many times on the list, but since the computer-era we live is so anicca, let me inquire once more. Has anyone heard about the most recent development of the database containing the Paali Canon? A few months ago, Lou Lancaster said the the Mahidol CD-ROM should soon be available. Is it now? What is happening with the PTS edition and the Dhammakaaya; will it ever by distributed? Thank you for your patience, Mathieu Boisvert Departement des sciences religieuses R24340@ER.UQAM.CA (514) 987-6909 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 14:00:42 EDT From: Mathieu Boisvert Subject: Suicide and Buddhism ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Can anyone suggest books or articles dealing with the question of suicide (not necessarily of arahants, there are so few of them...) in Buddhism. Thanks, Mathieu Boisvert Departement des sciences religieuses R24340@ER.UQAM.CA (514) 987-6909 ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 23 May 1994 to 24 May 1994 *************************************************** From: masimo@netcom.com (Michael Maas) Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern Subject: Myoe Paper [1/3] Date: 15 Aug 1994 12:12:50 -0700 Approved: nabil@world.net (Aaron Nabil) A SHORT WALK IN THE LIFE OF MYOE SHONIN: A JOURNEY OF INDIVIDUATION THROUGH DREAMS There is a traditional story told of the Buddha that relates how, while he was on his search for enlightenment, he was rescued by the daughter of a cowherd. He had, only a short time before, come to learn of the hardships and pain of the world after having been protected from them by his well- meaning father. After learning of the pain of the world, the Buddha set out to become a holy man in order to discover how to resolve this problem of the hardships of human existence. While on this journey, he tried several traditional religious methods. The last of these he tried before finally becoming enlightened was that of ascetic discipline. He came upon five aspirants to enlightenment or bhikkus who had chosen a path of severe mortification. The Buddha joined them, and proved to be so adept at the discipline involved that he was soon made their leader by their common agreement. He spent six years in these rigid disciplines until finally, he had become so accomplished that he was able live on a single mustard seed per day. His hope was to overcome his ego-self and thereby cross over into enlightenment. One day however, he found that he was barely able to move due to the strenuous and intense practices of self-mortification he had subjected himself to. He looked at his shrunken and shriveled body and examined himself only to realize that all of his self mortification had come to nought. He felt no closer to enlightenment after all of this practice that he did at the beginning. He slowly rose as he came to the realization that this discipline was not helping him in his search and went down to the river to bathe. Having bathed, he found himself unable to leave the river due to his lack of strength. It was then that a young maiden, Sujarta the daughter of a local cowherd, saw him struggling. Sujarta came to the aid of the Buddha and bowing down in deference to his holiness, she offered him a bowl of rice-milk. This elixir restored him fully to health, his limbs became refreshed, his mind became clarified and he was given the strength to at last receive, what he had been seeking ever since he had left his home: the highest enlightenment. A modern psychological moral of this story might be expressed thus: the intensively masculine ascetic attempts by the Buddha to attain enlightenment finally required integration of the nurturing feminine to bring him to the place of enlightenment he sought and subsequently attained. Myoe Shonin, the subject of this article, a twelfth century Japanese Monk, underwent a similar struggle of integration. The theme of integration of the male and female in Buddhism is quite common and the well educated Myoe was undoubtedly aware of that theme and of the traditions that supported it. 1 Indeed, he was certainly aware of the tale related above as we shall see below. However, despite his perhaps more theoretical understanding, Myoe's more existential understanding of the need for such an integration remained a struggle for his entire life. It is this struggle and its reflection in Myoe's dreams that is the topic of this article. THE YOUTHFUL MYOE Myoe Shonin (1173-1232) was a 12th century Japanese Priest who lived at a time of both great social upheaval in Japanese society and, probably not merely fortuitously, at the time of one of the renaissances of Japanese Buddhism. Myoe's contributions to the Kamakura renaissance have not, up to this time, been widely recognized in the West but those contributions and his fascinating story and the dreams that he recorded are now beginning to be told outside of Japan. Myoe's life was filled with tragedy and difficulties from a young age. He was born into a faction of Japanese nobility that was to begin its descent from power and favor during his early youth and remain in decline during his life. As a result, regardless of whether he wished to participate or not, many doors, both political and religious, were never open to him. While he was not alone in being subject to the whim of circumstances in this way, he apparently was more unique in his lifelong attempts to reject the pursuit of these political and politically religious paths. To be noble in the Japan of the Kamakura, meant to be of warrior stock. His own father died in battle, and many of his cousins and uncles held government and military positions. For one born into such an ethic, the underlying attitudes and unspoken definitions of manhood will include that warriors ethic. Whatever those attitudes were, they were almost certainly assumed and integrated into the personality of Myoe. This background and its effect had a far reaching effect on the subsequent life of Myoe. While Myoe's first few years of life were apparently quite stable, he was orphaned at the age of seven after his mother died of illness and his father was killed in battle a short time later. Initially he was adopted by his uncle Yuasa Munemitsu and his maternal aunt. Shortly thereafter however, at the age of eight in 1181, Myoe began studies with another uncle Jogaku at the Buddhist temple of Jingoji on Mt. Takao. Both this uncle, Jogaku, and Yuasa Munemitsu, were to become predominant characters in his dreams in later life. The Lady Munemitsu, was also to play a very important role in both his real life and in his dream life. It was at Jingoji that a somewhat martinet like streak of Myoe's personality began to emerge more overtly. This streak had been apparent in Myoe from a very young age. One story about his youth relates that when his father was teasing him about his good looks and how they might take him far as a minister at court when he was older, he got angry and declared his intention to become a monk and then attempted to disfigure himself with hot iron chopsticks. 2 This kind of behavior at such a young age is indeed precocious and evidences, not only his intense desire and sense of mission about his own journey in life, but also his great intelligence. But, what is most interesting, is this immediate attempt to disfigure himself for it seems to be a predictor of much of his attitudes in later life. Such attempts at disfiguration often carry with them questions as to the sanity and adjustment of the individual who undertakes them. In the case of Myoe however, while some kind of psychological aberration may have been partially responsible for such acts, it appears to have been more due to his early and subsequently lifelong extreme dedication to his pursuit of remaining true to the precepts he vowed to maintain as a Buddhist monk. Myoe had both chosen, and had had chosen for him the path of the Buddhist priesthood. In pursuing this path, Myoe brought to it, the warrior traditions that he had inherited from his own family. It is quite possible, that he had inherited other attributes of personality that affected his own pursuits as well, attributes of self-discipline and self-sacrifice that may have come from a deeper or more profound source than just the tradition he inherited. There were many who inherited the same tradition, but as is apparent when reading about Myoe, he was unusually able to maintain his discipline throughout his life while many if not most of his contemporaries were not. THE MASCULINE FEMININE DIVIDE The very fact that there are two genders in the human race appears to frequently lead each of the genders to develop certain qualities that they find most comfortable to a greater degree than certain others that they do not. Unfortunately, sometimes the very claiming of one of the genders of some of these qualities leads the opposite gender to either devalue or disclaim that same quality in themselves. It is perhaps thus, in extreme reaction to all that is considered feminine, that males take on a hyper-masculine "macho" male persona that frequently exhibits itself in, though varied, always hyper- masculine ways. Some of these stereotypical hyper-masculine roles are those of the militaristic martinet, the macho misogynists and the austere ascetic religious monk. The attribution of "masculine" to the sets of traits that lead to such roles is not meant to exclude the opposite gender from the possible possession of these traits but only to note that because they most often are associated with males, they are usually thought of as masculine. What each of these stereotyped roles hold in common, is their radical tendency toward what are usually called masculine qualities and their consequent negation of what are usually called feminine qualities. Men who find themselves trying to live out these roles are often denied, or perhaps deny themselves, the opportunities to express their feelings, or often even to feel their feelings while they are in this hyper- masculine mode. These roles are most often relinquished to varying degrees over time through a process of maturation or individuation as a brash and aggressive young man matures into a wise and loving grandfather. The process of maturation is marked by a series of struggles as the hyper- masculine attributes are slowly but surely softened and often relinquished in favor of an assumption by the individual of some of those qualities more often associated with feminine attributes. 3 Dreams have been both experienced and recorded in different ways throughout the history of mankind. One popular modern Western method of understanding dreams has been to interpret them as, harbingers, guides or even predictors for this process of maturation or individuation. This method has developed extensively in the 20th century since the advent of the therapeutic techniques of Freud and Jung and their followers. Since we, of the twentieth century, have found dreams to be a both useful and reliable guide for our own individuation, it would seem worthwhile to ask if humans of other times and places might have been equally, if not perhaps, as obviously, instructed by their dreams. In the dreams of Myoe, we have an opportunity to examine his life and investigate his dreams, or at least those that he recorded and that survived the intervening time, to see if they might have informed or influenced him in his own life transition from the highly disciplined, austere and critical monk he was as a youth to the more avuncular or even grandfatherly figure he became. This is the question this short paper attempts to answer in the positive by an examination of a short series of the dreams and the historical circumstances in which they occurred. MYOE: WARRIOR-MONK "I do not wish to stay in this mountain temple Which stinks of so-called Dharma masters. If one's heart is pure, The truth can even be found in wiping one's behind." 4 This rather revealing poem was written by Myoe upon his leaving Mt. Takao at the age of twenty-two in search of a more austere life at Shirakami. He had taken the vows and accepted the precepts a few years earlier at the age of fifteen. His administrator of the precepts was his uncle, and therefore his uncle was formally his master. However, Myoe never felt that anyone other than Sakyamuni Buddha in his various manifestations was his true master. 5 Myoe's departure from Takao was primarily motivated by his desire to leave behind the teachers whom he felt to be of one conviction when it came to the precepts: that being that they largely ignored them. Myoe, in contrast to these teachers had a much more ascetic attitude about the precepts and wished to follow them rigorously. He sought, in his leaving, a more authentic teacher so that he might be better able to follow the precepts. That teacher, was to be the Buddha, himself or herself in the case of Butsugen to whom we shall turn below. The precepts or monastic vows were of great importance to the reformers of the Kamakura Schools. The social context in which the Kamakura reforms occurred was one of great change and discontent. Political struggles and consequent wars resulted in massive social upheavals and much sorrow and suffering. In an attempt to understand why such suffering should occur some of the theorists proposed that it was the loss of, or the not attending to, the precepts that had caused the moral failures that in turn resulted in the struggles that were currently bringing such misery to the country. 6 This was the context in which Myoe came to the conclusion that the Precepts were to be the major focus of his religious pursuit. 7 While at Shirakami, Myoe continued to focus his meditative efforts on Butsugen-butsumo, the Buddha-mother. 8 He had begun this practice a few years earlier while still at Takao. Myoe's being orphaned at an early age may have resulted in a need to understand what it meant to have a maternal or mothering presence in his life. Since he had been denied this opportunity by his own mother's untimely death, he began, probably quite unconsciously, to search for this presence in the Buddha. Many of his earlier dreams, those between the ages of eighteen and twenty-three contain images of Butsugen as mother to Myoe. It may be that this period of Myoe's life can be described, as Kawai says 9 as one wherein Myoe allowed himself to be engulfed by the motherly affection he had missed as an orphan. It is possible, indeed perhaps even likely, that such an absorbtion into Butsugen in meditation led Myoe to the point where he lost almost all identity of self as separate from this maternal presence. His move to Shirakami and toward a more austere life of single- minded meditation and isolation resulted in a rebirth of sorts for the young Myoe, as he separated himself from the engulfing maternal presence of Butsugen in his life. True to the image of self-discipline he had developed, and to the warrior ethic he had inherited, he chose an unusual and violent way to finally ritualize this separation. While sitting in meditation in front of Butsugen, Myoe cut off his ear as a sacrifice to her. This act served at least four possible purposes: 1) it served as a sacrifice of his own worldly self to the Buddha, 2) it served as an act of separation from his adopted mother Butsugen, 3) it served as a dedicatory sacrifice of a warrior to the service of his Lord (Buddha), and 4) it served as a way in which the vow to maintain the precepts could be ritually validated. 10 Myoe wrote the following poem to Butsugen as he consummated this sacrificial ritual: Pity me as I think of you Oh my enlightened one. Other than you No one knows. Great mother of the earless priest Grace me with thine compassion. Birth upon birth, age after age Do not leave me, Oh great mother, dear mother. I take refuge in mother, my mother. The beloved child of Sakyamuni, Joben [Myoe], Who bas been forsaken after the Buddha's entrance into Parinirvana. [Signed] With reverence, the mountain beggar of Kishu. 11 From this brief biographical sketch of Myoe's early life it is clearly seen that Myoe was an unusual man for any age. His early and precocious sense of the road he would follow, his disciplined and austere attitude toward his own practice, the youthful disdain with which he viewed those less disciplined than himself, and the personal strength and resolve revealed in this sacrificial act paint a picture of a young warrior priest: a warrior on the road of overcoming the obstacles to his own realization of the Dharma primarily through his own self-discipline. Myoe appeared to have found, just as did the Buddha, a path of mortification. However, he had no live models to emulate as did the Buddha, and he had to find his own. The vow to maintain the precepts in a radical manner served this purpose for Myoe. MYOE IN TRANSITION For various reasons, Myoe's stay at Kishu was shorter than he would have wished and he was once again forced back into the mainstream of life in Kamakura, Japan. The political struggles continued and Myoe frequently found himself affected by their results. He moved from place to place often just getting settled in one place when he would have to move again. Throughout this time, he continued to pursue his discipline and to record his dreams. Outside of the austere and isolated environment at Kishu, Myoe was brought face to face once again with the failings of his fellow monks. He was also unable to avoid even if he had wished to, the misery and suffering of the common people. For perhaps the first time since his early childhood, he was brought face to face with the difficulties of day-to-day life for the ordinary Japanese of the time. We can only surmise what the effect of this exposure might have been for his own attitudes. We do know that at the age of about twenty-six around 1199 he was thought highly enough of by his fellow monks that disciples had already begun to follow him. 12 He continued his travels and stays at various places until the year 1206 when at the age of thirty-three he was granted a piece of land by the retired emperor Go-Toba at Toganoo, a sub-area of Jingoji, the temple in which he had begun his monastic training with his uncle. The temple he subsequently built at this site was named Kozanji (High mountain temple) after the phrase in the Flower Garland Sutra that says the morning light falls first on the high mountains. 13 This grant was probably not a surprise occurrence. Possibly negotiations had been going on for some time about the gift of this land to Myoe. Along with the gift went an obligation on the part of Myoe to become a teacher and to attempt to restore the traditions and teachings of the Kegon school of Buddhism. The grant and this obligation represented an overt requirement for change and necessitated a conscious decision on his part to renounce his lifelong pursuit of the isolated practice of a hermit. Even though he had not been successful for any length of time in this pursuit since leaving Kishu, it had remained a hope and desire for him. With the acceptance of this grant he had to realize that those hopes and desires were now being put aside and very likely would not be able to be taken up again. Thus this grant and his subsequent development of his own temple and following marked a major transition point for Myoe. It necessitated his moving from the austere reclusive state he desired into a more public role that would involve leadership and authority. When Myoe's life is viewed in retrospect from the time of the Toganoo grant we see first a young idealistic adolescent Myoe who even attempted to emulate the stories he had heard of the Buddha's sacrificing himself to a hungry tiger, by sitting in a charnel ground as a youth and waiting to be consumed by the wild animals who fed there. 14 That event revealed his propensity for self-sacrifice that would later be actualized in his ritual act before the image of Butsugen. When, as a young man, he left Takao for Kishu, he left as a disciplined and ascetic youthful monk who was most concerned with the practices of self discipline that would result in his ability to maintain the monastic vows in which so many others failed. This self- discipline was apparently not a trivial task for Myoe, as in his later advice to one of his disciples, he stated clearly that he knew in a very existential way what the temptations were even in such isolation. 15 Finally, his experiences and leaving of Kishu, and subsequent wandering up until this grant, reflect a continuing concern to maintain his vows, and a pattern of longing for the isolation and seclusion that he once had possessed at Kishu. This longing is made all the more poignant by the constant demands for his time as a scholar and teacher by others. In a sense, the grant of land is the final denouement of his life as a solitary practitioner and the beginning of a new chapter as a public teacher and abbot. MYOE AND DREAMS The dreams that occurred around this period are well preserved and help to reveal just how significant this period of his life was. We will examine some of these dreams and attempt to understand how they may have reflected the changes that the monk Myoe had to make in his own self- understanding in order to move into this new role. Myoe, who in his conscious life constantly leaned toward the ascetic and solitary life of a recluse and whose second nature was that of a rigid self-disciplinarian, often highly critical of those who did not have those strengths that he possessed in such abundance, was now about to begin his move into the more mature and understanding persona of the abbot of his own temple. Before beginning this exploration however, it is both useful and interesting to understand something of how Myoe, himself, understood the meaning and importance of dreams. Historically and anthropologically dreams have been used by mankind in many different ways. Predictive dreams such as those of Joseph in Egypt from the Old Testament of the Judaeo-Christian Bible appear frequently in traditional sources. There are prophetic dreams in the sense of the warnings of the prophets of Israel. Another fascinating use of dreams is recorded regarding their socializing function as found in the Senoi tribe. 16 Finally there is a tradition of using dreams as a way of developing and maturing oneself as is exemplified by the dream of Jacob wrestling with God in the Old Testament. This last tradition is the one that has been developed as our own modern tradition of using dreams as a tool with which one integrates oneself into a more whole person. Much of this more modern use originated with the work of Carl Jung and his followers. However, while Jung's focus on dreaming primarily involved understanding them in terms of archetypes, many modern dream interpreters even while recognizing the possibility of archetypal dreams, frequently do not dwell on the archetypal aspects of the dream figures or themes, but rather on what the figures or themes might have to tell them or their clients personally. Dreams interpreted with this goal in mind frequently understand the differing characters found in the dream as representing various aspects of the dreamer him- or herself. That is the methodological assumption used in the interpretations found in this paper. It does not appear that Myoe always approached his dreams with such an intention. He did not always discursively analyze the various types of dreams he and those around him had. However, his writing describes quite clearly the circumstances in which some of the dreams occurred and this in itself can help us to understand how he treated them. Most of his own interpretations appear to take the characters at face value, i.e. as representing their real selves in his awake life. Of course, if the character were already dead, this would present difficulties but this possibility is not overtly addressed. Other symbols or characters were often interpreted in a symbolic manner. Some, however, were definitely regarded as possible advisors as to his own life. However, it is possible, perhaps even likely, that regardless of whether there was conscious intent, he might well have fallen under the sway of these oneiric or dream messengers and may have been moved to make changes that ultimately did lead to a maturation of his personality. In fact, these dreams may have played the role for Myoe, that Sujarta, the cowherd's daughter played for the Buddha; they may have brought to him the maternal nurturing that was necessary to his own maturation. In the materials available about Myoe and his attitudes about dreams we find three main types of dreams: 1) those of other people, 2) those he had when he drifted off in meditative states, and 3) those he himself had apparently during full sleep. As an example of the first type of dream, Myoe related in later life, an interpretation of a dreams had by his aunt, his mother's sister, while he was in the womb, of two oranges as having had to do with his responsibility in life of following and promoting the teachings of two schools of Buddhism, the Shingon and the Kegon. 17 When Myoe interpreted the dreams of others as they related to himself, he seems to have treated them in a very symbolic and detached way. The second kind of dream was probably a dream that occurred in the hypnogogic state, 18 a state that is difficult to define. It is that state between waking and sleeping when one is drifting off into sleep but neither awake nor yet asleep. A common experience of this state that many have experienced, is the feeling of falling while drifting off to sleep and suddenly catching oneself and being thereby startled back into the waking state. Historically, the dream of August Kekule, the discoverer of the Benzene ring, in which he saw snakes appearing to form themselves into rings while trying to swallow their own tails, is often cited as an example of an image that emerged during the hypnogogic state. Hypnogogic dreams are often quite insightful in a different and more immediate way than are dreams that occur in full sleep. The symbols and experiences of this state are often much more immediate and realistic. The following is an example of what might have been a hypnogogic dream for Myoe: [104] On the 29th day of the same, I was sitting in meditation during the late night period. (At the time of my [meditation on] the Buddha's radiance), there was an auspicious sign during my meditation. To my right was a gathering of fires much like pine torches. In front of me was an assembly of exquisite lights like gems. A foot or two off to my left was an effulgence of radiance. A voice said, "This is the mantra of radiance [komyo shingon]." I thought: This is the form of radiance that is called the mantra of radiance. (This corresponds with the main text, and should be kept secret.) 19 From: masimo@netcom.com (Michael Maas) Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern Subject: Myoe Paper [2/3] Date: 15 Aug 1994 12:13:33 -0700 Approved: nabil@world.net (Aaron Nabil) Finally there were those that probably were normal dreams, that is dreams that occur in the normal state of sleep. Here is an example, with an extensive interpretation, of such a dream. It is interesting to note that while the symbolism is obviously evident to Myoe, he projects all the symbols of this dream on to external events and persons: [171] In a dream on the same night, I saw a child [whom I had seen] previously. He was sleeping, using my lap for a pillow. There was a large bird trying very had to disturb him. The bird was about thirteen to sixteen yards [long]. Its body consisted of various sticks and miscellaneous things, and something like a potato vine was wrapped around it. Beside the child was a monk (Hoachi), who grabbed the bird's tail. The tail was of sticks and wood. At the same time, it was also the tail of a body. When he took this tail, I thought that since it was of wood, it might collapse; and although it was precarious, nothing in particular happened. We were in a place like a hallway; and although the open space by the eaves was barely a foot [wide], he pulled the bird in without causing any damage. Interpretation: This dream concerns Santo Taro. When he was about to go to the capital to serve a shrine and its deity, Saemon Jiroa of the Outer Palace Guards, Left Division, prevented him; and therefore the bird appeared to disturb [the child]. The miscellaneous things which formed its body indicate [Jiro's] great greed in taking other people's property to embellish himself. The child is the Great August Deity and cannot have been a sign of anything else. On the 1st day of the 12th month of the same, nothing happened to the Lieutenant of the Military Guards, so he returned home. 20 It is clear both from the fact that he recorded his dreams so extensively and by what he wrote concerning them that Myoe put great credence in his dreams and treated them with enormous respect. In a Dream from his Diary we find the following: [23] I was staying with Military Guard Sakiyama. As I was tired, he took my pillow and placed shikimi leaves under my head. In a dream after that, there was a large rock whose pinnacle had no end. Sea water flowed from above like a waterfall. It was a superior sight of joy. I was extremely delighted by this. 21 This dream, though not interpreted by Myoe might well represent the both the sacredness of the dream world and the bountiful source of insights that can come from that world. The shikimi leaves are particularly interesting because they are the leaves of a plant often used to decorate the altars in the temples. Thus, the pillow, the altar of the dreamworld, is decorated in the dream. It is interesting also, that it was his uncle Munemitsu, or Sakiyama who places the leaves under his head. Munemitsu was a frequent participant in Myoe's dreams, and was usually a masculine presence. Indeed, the masculine presence is reinforced by the phallic image of a pinnacle of rock without end and from which sea water flowed like a waterfall. Myoe found himself possessed of both a very logical and a very imaginative mind. It was clear to him even at a very young age that most of his contemporaries could not match him intellectually. Moreover, he was remarkably unsuperstitious in a time when many held to superstitions. His understanding and interpretations of his dreams are evidence of both his lack of superstition and of his great sophistication. Perhaps the most important influence on Myoe however, was his understanding of history. There is little doubt that his own situation, of being in the political faction that was out of favor, influences his view of history. But what was more important was his view of history from the Buddhist cosmological perspective in which he was immersed: The age of mappo. 22 This was an age of hopelessness, from the Buddhist perspective, between the parinirvana or death of Sakyamuni and the arrival of the next Buddha or "Buddha of the Future:" Maitreya. It appears that it was this sense of being born at the wrong time that was a substantial contributor to Myoe's strong attachment to the precepts. For Myoe, who lamented his being born in a time of decadence, the following of the precepts and the building through meditation and esoteric practices of an alternative reality, were a way to live as if in the presence of the Buddha even in his own time. What living in this time aside from that interior world he constructed, meant for Myoe is perhaps best illustrated with his own words: It is the custom in this latter age of the decline of the dharma to study Buddhism from time to time to enhance one's name without understanding the true meaning of the teaching. .. - If what current scholars say is the true teaching of the Buddha, then the worst of all religions is Buddhism itself. When monks enter the way of the Buddha's dharma, they casually learn its teachings, but they do not regard the dharma as being an essential way of renunciation. What they really pursue is the disgusting work of gaining ecclesiastical rank. But ultimately they do not strive enough- they become sick and die with nothing to show. Ah, what has the practice of the dharma come to in this frontier land of the latter age? They are so fussy; they hardly seem intelligent. 23 Though he frequently lamented not having been born at the right time, the time when Sakyamuni was alive and teaching in India, he still desired to find a way to live as if he had been born and lived at that time. He was able to accomplish this in two principal ways. The first was by living the life of maintaining the precepts 24 which allowed him to feel as if he were in the original sangha and the second was through the imagineering 25 way of constructing a reality based on visual imaging in meditation. These images were not imaginary in the sense that we might assume today. Rather they were, for Myoe, very real, and an alternative reality that could be constructed by anyone wishing to experience the Pure Land in their present lifetime. Given this kind of willing suspending of the reality of the assumed objective phenomenal world in favor of the imaged cosmological world of the Buddha, it is not surprising that Myoe was not only able to believe very much in his dreams, but was even able to attribute to them almost the same credibility that he would attribute to the phenomenal world. 26 Perhaps, Myoe's own dream best illustrates this: [82] In a dream on the 13th day of the 11th month of the same (I was singlemindedly sitting in meditation at the time), there was a single, large monkey who had become used to me. I taught it to practice zen meditation. The monkey followed my instructions, learned the meditation method, formed mudras, and sat in the lotus position. However, his sitting posture was not quite straight. Then I went out into a large street in the capital. I was alone, however, and there was no one attending me. Since I did not know the road, I guessed my way and intended to go [somewhere]. The place I arrived at was Kiyomizudera. I looked about and realized that I should have known [the way] after all. Then there was a large mansion with a pond in front of it. The water was low and filthy. There were tiny worms in it. A house was built over the water like a fishing pavilion, but it was shaky and unfinished. The meaning of this is that the Jeweled Tower (horokaku) 27 will fall to ruin if I do not practice Esoteric ritual methods. The pond is the pond in front of the Tower. It cannot be maintained by sitting meditation. 28 It is clear from reading of Myoe's life and dreams that his dreams throughout his life offered him guidance away from the negative qualities of asceticism that appears to have been such a predominant aspect of his youthful persona. Nevertheless, they did not always suggest that he abandon that characteristic, and in fact sometimes appear to have encouraged it. There is much evidence to be adduced about his attitudes and about how they changed over time by looking both at his dreams and at his writings. Here we will discuss just a few items that will help us to better understand how a self-disciplined rigid and somewhat critical young monk matured into the pragmatic ecumenical abbot he became in later life. In particular, we will look at some dreams that occurred around the time of his acceptance of the grant of the land at Toganoo and try to understand how those dreams reflect the change that took place for him in his development. 29 THE DREAMS [24] The feeling of summer subsided and it was cool. I refreshed myself in a bath. After praying for the success of the dharma, I had many dreams. On the morning of the 14th day of the 12th month of 1205, I prayed for the perfection of the great vow at the First Avenue lecture hall. In a dream, I was at a place that was steep and dangerous beyond limit. I was trying to climb to the top of a rock that was like an upstretched arm. I was climbing from the bottom to the top with the priests Kyochi and Zen(...), both pushing me from the bottom till I made it to the top. At the top of the rock, a board was laid out, and on its surface were written the names of Indra, Brahma, and other deities. As I crawled across the top, Kyochi and the other priest were chanting, "Love as parents would their only child." They pushed me, and when I arrived [farther] up, it seemed that I was in Kii. Master Chikuzen 30 was unusually gentle; his appearance exquisitely beautiful. (He was about 14 or 15 years old.) He was there at the top facing me while sitting in meditation with a joyful look. 31 This dream begins the sequence of dreams with which we are concerned. It is notable that it follows in sequence the dream cited above about the Shikimi leaves. Like that dream, there is again a pinnacle of rock. In this dream however, Myoe is attempting to ascend the rock with the help of two of his associates, Kyochi, a disciple of Myoe and possibly Zendo another disciple. The two priests are helping Myoe from below and are pushing him and chanting a mantra that is encouraging Myoe to Love. Initially his climb leads him to what appears to be India where he finds the names of various deities inscribed on some boards. It had long been a dream of Myoe to go to India and twice earlier in his life he had gone so far as to begin to plan such a trip. This desire was no doubt a result of his intense longing to be near Sakyamuni but it was not to be fulfilled. 32 Only after having reached this level, a level of devotion that despite its sanctity in terms of the objectives he sought, remained quite literal and unfulfilling because it is primarily of form and little substance, he is pushed higher by his colleagues and breaks through to another level through the "mantra of love." In this new level, he finds himself back in Kii, the site of his hermitage. But in his dream, Kii, the area where he was most harsh on himself in his practice, is occupied by a youthful master who is both gentle and attractive. This contrasts starkly with the Kishu of Myoe's real life where he went because of its harshness and with the intent of sacrificing himself to the vows he had undertaken of following the precepts. This dream recognizes the masculine path he has been pursuing by portraying the ascent of the rock and indicates that his pursuit is not yet complete by virtue of the fact that he is still climbing. Moreover, it suggests that it is not a solitary pursuit in terms of the single focus of discipline for he needs the help of other aspects of his own persona represented by the two monks who aid him while chanting a mantra of love. Finally, it seeks to teach him that there is more to attain than just deities and devotion; there is also love, gentleness, and beauty and shows him the result of such attainment in the persona of the young Master Chikuzen. 33 [25] In a dream on the night of the 19th of the same, the new Councilor was walking on foot and drew closer with a happy look. He spent the night and showed no desire of leaving. I had a funny feeling about this and asked, "I do not think you are ordinary. Are you a deity?" "Yes," he replied, "I have come because I must tell you something." "What is it?" I asked. He answered, "I do not feel that I can live in the Kyoto area." From the 20th day of the 5th month of 1206, I began to practice and offer prayers immediately for the benefit of the Arita district. I practiced the horokaku method two times [daily], and also began to perform the meditation on Butsugen and the larger Butcho [sutra]. This was at Jingoji. 34 The councilor is probably Kujo Michiie (1193-1252) who was both a follower and a benefactor of Myoe. 35 Here we must ask, what might this councilor have represented in the dreams of Myoe. The comment following the dream may be more revealing however. In this comment, Myoe again at Jingoji in Takao, begins praying for the people of his own home area, the Arita district. It is possible that Michiie represents the paternal avuncular aspect of Myoe's personality that will emerge gradually as he takes on his new responsibilities. His not being able to live in Kyoto means perhaps that Myoe's role will not be political and his taking care of the people through prayer indicates an awareness on his part that it is important for him to begin to focus his practice on efforts that help the common people. [26] On the night of the 29th of the same, I dreamed about a child. He was wearing a jeweled headdress and necklaces covered his body. He came with a happy look on his face, and we became close to each other. Then there were more than ten children. I loved them all. They came, and we became close to each other. 36 [45] In a dream on the night of the 8th day of the same, I was going somewhere. There were five or six ordinary children for whom I showed great respect. When they came down to my place, I took some clothes and made them wear them. It was infinitely interesting to look out from this spot and gaze over the seaways. 37 These dreams appear to bring Myoe even more in touch with the role he would play in the future. They appear to be encouraging him to appreciate the innocence and playfulness of children. In the first dream the child is bejewelled indicating that he is to be highly valued and his happiness comes from his being a child. Myoe, in his dream, comes to love this child and several others. The second dream is not just of children but of "ordinary children." This great respect for ordinary children may indicate that he is either maturing or perhaps being called upon to mature in his ability to give respect to the ordinary. In his later years, long after the time of these dreams, it was clear that he held out the possibility of salvation to all, but looking back at his youthful cynical statements about his fellow monks leads one to doubt if this was the case in his earlier years. Dreams like this quite possibly helped him to move from that earlier critical attitude to the inclusive one he espoused later in his life. [27] On the night of the 30th day of the same, I dreamed about a woman. Her alms bowl was full of white rice gruel mixed with poppy seeds. She took some between her chopsticks and made me take and eat. Before this, I had made a pilgrimage to Kumano. All the people of Arita were waiting for me. 38 This dream brings home two central points of the changes Myoe is undergoing during this period of his life. First, the central character in this fragment is that of a nurturing woman. She is feeding Myoe a white rice gruel with poppy seeds. It is nearly certain that Myoe himself knew the story related at the beginning of this article. If so, the white rice gruel could truly be a representation of that story in the dream of Myoe and quite possibly with a similar meaning. So it is likely that this dream is indicative of a transition for Myoe of beginning to depend more upon those parts of himself that he might have considered to be feminine or maternal. Second, the people of Arita again await Myoe. His dream appears to be telling him that his future role is to be a leader of the people. The dream of Michiie above already hints that his role is not to be political. [28] In a dream on the night of the 1st day of the 6th month of the same, the late general of Kamakura was in the Arita district and was about to leave. The Miyahara nun was also about to leave. Then I received a letter from the house of the Military Guard [Sakiyama Yoshisada]. I opened it up and saw a jeweled case made of bronze. It was a catalogue of the Kegon sect. The Yuasa nun was off to one side, and she said, "We had it previously." I thought to myself, The Military Guard had a great aspiration to copy the Kegon Sutra. This is the copy that I have obtained. I was looking at it in the midst of many people. 39 The "late general" is quite likely to have been Minamoto Yoritomo (1147-1199). Yoritomo was the general responsible for the final defeat of the Taira clan from which Myoe descended. The Miyahara nun was the wife of Miyahara Mitsushige, and was cured of an illness by Myoe in 1206. Sakiyama was the husband of Myoe's maternal aunt and had raised him after the death of his parents. The Yuasa nun was probably a wife of another of Myoe's uncles, Munemitsu. The "late general," at one time an enemy of Myoe's clan, was in Myoe's home district and about to leave. At the same time, a letter from his uncle arrives. As he opens it, it transforms itself into a jeweled case containing Kegon materials. Another aunt, notably a female figure, mentions that it is something they, perhaps meaning the clan, had had previously. This is associated with Sakiyama's desire to copy the Kegon sutra and finally it becomes the copy Myoe now has obtained. All of this takes place in the midst of many people. While such a literal interpretation of the dream does make sense a more figurative meaning having to do with Myoe's own transformation can also be easily derived. The "late general" as a family enemy might be representative of Myoe's own tendency to be harsh on himself and to treat himself like an enemy. His leaving then is symbolic of Myoe's own release and detachment from this tendency in himself. The more avuncular and fatherly Sakiyama, how hands over a treasure of great value to Myoe, and this is done with the blessing of Myoe's aunt, and in the midst of the people he is to lead. 40 [29] On the night of the 6th day of the same, I dreamed that there was an ocean in front of the house of the lay priest Ishizaki. 41 In the ocean there was a large fish, and someone said, "It's a crocodile." It had a single horn growing and was about ten feet long. [Someone] pierced its head and tied it up. I thought to myself, This fish must be close to dying. 42 This is an amazing dream. This death of a large fish is without doubt of great importance to Myoe's transformation. The binding and killing of the fish may represent a binding and killing of that masculine tendency toward the severe self-discipline he longed for in earlier times and which he now finds it necessary to moderate. It is hard to miss the phallic symbolism represented by a ten foot long horn. Moreover, binding it or tying it up is not adequate, it must be pierced resulting in a symbolic conversion of this masculine energy over to the receptive feminine as represented by its piercing. Myoe's own reflection that this fish must be close to dying was very likely what the dream wished to convey to him either as a reflection of the process of transition Myoe was undergoing, or as a reminder of what was necessary. There is a fascinating comparison to be made here. When Myoe, in his earlier conversion experience from the engulfing maternal, to the austere masculine of self-discipline, symbolically castrated himself, he was cutting off an organ of reception representative of the feminine, the ear. Thus, while it was truly symbolic of a castration of his maleness from its maternal origins, it was also in a sense the reverse, that is a castration of his own maternal characteristics as a sacrifice to the hyper-masculine life he had begun to undertake. Now, in this dream, he is called to reverse this earlier act through a binding and killing of this phallus-fish, and then a piercing of it resulting in a symbolic conversion back into the receptive feminine represented by the vagina. [35] From the 13th day of the same, I began [to recite] the shorter horokaku mantra 10,000 times. On the 14th day of the same, I saw a splendid house that appeared like an illusion. I lifted up the bamboo screen [and saw] a beautiful girl about fifteen or sixteen years old dressed in white hanging up a (...). She looked at me. 43 This apparently takes place during the chanting of the mantra. What is most interesting here, is that the young maiden is not associated with any particular person. Instead, it appears to be a pure symbol. Myoe, attaches no sexual significance to the maiden and simply by the absence of such, is conveyed a feeling of innocence and unspoiled beauty. This kind of image is typical of the hypnogogic dream. It may well have been Myoe's unconscious revealing to him just how beautiful and pleasant his feminine unconscious was. It was obviously an important event for Myoe to have recorded it. The fact that it occurred while chanting the Horokaku mantra is also noteworthy. This mantra, which is described in another dream above, was often chanted by Myoe on behalf of various acquaintances. Usually, this mantra was chanted for males however, while the Butsugen service was dedicated to females. So, once again, in the midst of Myoe's focus on the masculine, the feminine makes its presence known, this time in a very non- threatening, even attractive manner. [36] In a dream on the night of the 15th day of the same, I held an alms bowl full of milk. It seemed that a white dog was there and it wanted to drink it. The Councilor received a letter about something to be discussed. He was informed of this unexpectedly by the office of the Retired Emperor. I thought this was excellent [for him]. 44 The councilor here is again probably Michiee. It would appear that the aspect of the person Myoe represented by the Councilor in his dreams was about to receive some excellent news from the emperor. In fact, this news was quite likely the news of the grant of land in Toganoo. [41] In a dream on the night of the 4th day of the same, I visited the lord of Hoshoji [Kujo Kanezane]. He personally summoned me using these words, "Esoteric Master, take your seat here." He was exceedingly deferential. I did as he requested. He called me over to a place with something like a straw mat and asked me to sit down. The lay priest [Kanezane], someone whom I thought to be the lady [Gishumon?]-in, and someone whom I thought to be the Hoin were sitting there together. Since I was asked to speak on the meaning of the dharma, I was talking about it. It seemed that the Hoin ordered me to do a little part of a ritual service and had me standing for awhile. Then, together with someone whom I thought to be the lord's princess, it seemed that I was very much engaged in being intimate with her. I carried her in my arms and together we got into a carriage. However, there were two people [besides] the princess and myself who boarded the carriage. A variety of prepared dishes such as fried food on a Gosechi stand were laid out; and when I offered some to her, she said "Sprinkle some water over these and take them to the priest." 45 This is a powerful dream and may in a sense be representative of Myoe's ability within his dreams to finally fully accept those feminine aspects of his unconscious that had been attempting to get his attention for so long. It would appear that Myoe is finally uniting the feminine and the masculine. This highly intimate act can hardly be less than sexual. Moreover, they leave in a carriage indicating that this act is taking them to somewhere which possibly represents progress. The sprinkling is undoubtedly important. It has elements of both the act of sexual intercourse and of sacramental ritual. Perhaps it is a combination of both of those indicating that the unification of the feminine and the masculine represented by the sexual act is a sacramental ritual. The princess' direction to take these items to the priest indicates the implicit approval of the priest who possibly represents Myoe's more mature masculine aspect. The priestly title Hoin is the highest title of the priestly ranks. This final dream, cited next, does not appear in the dream diary found at Kozanji but is taken from another collection. 46 This dream occurs after he has been at Kozanji for most of a year. It is clearly a message to him that he is still not giving his feminine side its rightful share of his life. Myoe's road to integration was not as smooth as that of the Buddha. The tale of the Buddha, is a "tale," that does not include the detail that is necessary to fill it out as an experience of the suffering and pain resulting from human failings. From: masimo@netcom.com (Michael Maas) Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern Subject: Myoe Paper [3/3] Date: 15 Aug 1994 12:14:32 -0700 Approved: nabil@world.net (Aaron Nabil) Myoe's story, on the other hand, despite its obvious parallels to that tale, is much more complex and human in terms of its context of struggle and suffering. It is fraught throughout with the pitfalls and human failings that all must confront. It is a characteristic of being human that the lessons we are taught by life, whether it be the dreamlife or the waking life seldom are learned in one repetition. Myoe, was not an exception to this rule. On the twenty-ninth day of the fifth month of 1207, I went into Kyoto and stayed at the Higuchi's. In a dream seen that night, I was engaged in practice in a great hall. I paid homage to Indra, [guardian deity and member of the Eastern] Trinity of the Twelve Buddhas, whereupon the figure of Indra climbed atop a white elephant. Three statues of Buddhist deities entered the hall, and I performed a ritual practice. Indra took the form of a woman, removed his silk garments, and fled without receiving [my] offerings. There was a folding screen, and Indra looked at me from behind. After a little while the deity rode through the hall and exited from the front doors. He inquired something of a person he met, whereupon seven or eight priests appeared. Indra told one of them who appeared to be an attendent(sic) priest to tell the other seven or eight, "We must all go over to this priest [Myoe], trample on him, and throw him into the valley." They pushed me off the raised floor area. One of them said, "His life is short. He must not be killed; just hit him and drop him into the valley." The attendant monk accepted this and led me out by the hand. Two or three of the others accompanied us. I thought, "I'm sure he's going to kill me," and said, "Please let me live for now. I will die with dignity at another time." Everyone took joy at my words, and one old priest began to cry. Then I said to each of them, "How happy am I." I continued, "To that extent I..." [Rest missing][Dream of Pleading for Life]. 47 Let us begin with Indra, a borrowed deity from Hinduism. Here, Indra, a Buddha, to whom Myoe wishes to pay homage refuses his attention. Instead, Indra turns himself into a woman, and quite coquettishly looks at Myoe after disrobing while standing behind a screen. The sexual overtones here cannot be ignored. It appears than Indra is inviting Myoe once again to integrate with his feminine-maternal unconscious. Myoe is invited to a mature sexual relationship of unification but his reliance on his self-discipline and the precepts once again does not allow him to accept or even to see the invitation for what it is. Indra's reaction is quite drastic. She calls into the hall some other monks and instructs them to throw Myoe into the valley. The valley is a symbol of the receptive feminine and also of fertility because it is a source of sustenance, a place where things grow. By trampling Myoe, the monks will help to stamp out or extinguish this overly masculine aspect of Myoe and force him into the feminine. At this point, Myoe finally begins to understand. He pleads for his life stating that he will die with dignity another day. This statement seems to assuage the anger of Indra and the monks and one old monk even begins to cry. This is a tacit admission on the part of Myoe that he needs to further integrate the feminine for that is where the dignity will come from. The old monk shedding tears, is a pointer to the ability as he matures to be able to incorporate more of his feminine nature in the future. AFTERWORD Myoe's dreams appear to have both reflected and influenced the transition Myoe was undergoing as he prepared for his new role in life of being a teacher, abbot and an authority figure for the common people of Japan. Myoe, in later life became convinced that one of his tasks was to bring an ability to the common person to be able to participate fully in the reality of the Pure Land of Amida Buddha in the present life. He realized in his maturity, that even if the path of strict adherence to the precepts was necessary for him, it was not necessary for everyone. Out of this realization came a great effort on his part to provide the tools and writings necessary to allow others with less time and fortitude to walk through the gate of the Pure Land. In Myoe's own words: "Even though you have received the bodily [retribution] of one on an evil path because of your evil deeds, if you have a mind which takes refuge in the Three Treasures, you are in the assembly of the Buddha." 48 Myoe, the young warrior who sought the ascetic path through his adherence to the precepts had been nurtured by the Sujarta, the cowherd's daughter, of his own dreams. He had come to realize the maternal feminine in his own life and was thereby enabled to provide to those in his care hope for their future. NOTES: 1 In a response to the writings of another Buddhist priest of his own time, Honen, Myoe wrote: "Awakening bodaishin is the male voice, while all practices such as reciting the name are female voices. When male and female join together, they produce a child. Without bodaishin the husband, with whom can there be intercourse to produce a real child of the Pure Land?" George Tanabe, Myoe the Dreamkeeper Fantasy and Knowledge in Early Kamakura Buddhism, (Cambridge, MA: Council on East Asian Studies, Harvard University, 1992), pp. 103-104 2 Hayao Kawai The Buddhist Priest Myoe A Life of Dreams, tr. Mark Unno (Venice, CA: The Lapis Press, 1992), p. 39 3 In actuality, it is probably fairer to say that both the feminine and the masculine are really only human and are designated by gender simply because they are most obvious in one gender or the other. Thus when we speak of the integration of the feminine as the male matures, we don't really mean that they are becoming more female, but rather that they are becoming more fully human by reducing their tendency to accentuate those qualities we have designated as masculine and likewise increasing their tendency to accentuate some of those we have designated as feminine. 4 Kawai, Myoe, p. 77 5 Even Manjusri, a special role model for Myoe, was given the role of "spiritual friend." In his dreams, the title "The Superior Master" was used by Myoe extensively. This probably referred to one of his superiors in real life, either Jogaku, his uncle, or Mongaku a later teacher. There is a remarkable pattern of lament however throughout his life about not having lived while Sakyamuni was alive. 6 George Tanabe goes into extensive detail about the concept of mappo in the time of Myoe. He says: "The study of history made it clear that the demise of the precepts was due not only to the cosmic change in the times, but also to the failure of human effort to propagate them. The state of moral disrepair was surely a reflection of the fact of mappo but if it was only a cosmic consequence of that order, then no attempt could correct that condition since mappo was not humanly instituted. The knowledge of history made it clear that moral failure was also a mortal one, and as such could be rectified through human effort. The problem was identified quite specifically as the failure to transmit and hold to the precepts." Tanabe, Myoe, p. 43. 7 The precepts were important, and arguably most important to Myoe. However they were but one part of a tripartite understanding of learning that consisted of adherence to the precepts, meditation and the pursuit of prajna or wisdom. It would be an error to assume that Myoe in any way ignored these other two aspects of learning. There is ample evidence that he was equally faithful to them. The precepts however, were where he seemed to be most at home. 8 This was an effort and method that apparently he continued throughout his life and is mentioned quite frequently in his dreams. 9 "When he was practicing before Butsugen at the age of eighteen, she was like a lover to him, the two being united in an undifferentiated bond of incestual affection." Kawai, Buddhist, p. 72. 10 In terms of the latter purpose, Myoe had taken the tonsure and begun to wear the robes of a monk, however, so did every other monk, including the vast majority who did not even pretend to follow the precepts. 11 This poem, stained with drops of Myoe's blood from his sacrificial act is kept currently is in Myoe's temple at Kozanji. 12 Kawai, Buddhist, p. 91 13 This is an allusion to the fact that only the most highly developed aspirants will be helped by the this sutra. Kukai (774-835), the founder of Shingon Buddhism in Japan, also referred to the Hua-yen ching in similar terms: "As the sun first shines upon the high peaks while the world is still lying in darkness, so He [the Buddha] illumined those whose aptitude was high with the doctrine of the nonduality of the mind and the Buddha." Tanabe, Myoe, p. 25 14 "...He thought, "Since I have reached the age of twelve, I am already old [enough]; the time of my death is near... The reason I should die is that the Buddha himself threw away his life for the sake of other beings. I will take the place of others and give myself up to be eaten by tigers and wolves. Soon after this he went to the graveyard at night and lay down to die. Graves in the Kamakura Period consisted simply of piled corpses left to be eaten by wild dogs, and Myoe thought that he would be devoured to death. He single-mindedly contemplated the Buddha and awaited the end, but "nothing in particular had happened by the time dawn broke, and he went back disappointed." Kawai, Buddhist, p. 65 15 Kawai, Buddhist, p. 176-177. 16 I first encountered this interesting tribe in a book edited by Charles Tart: Altered States of Consciousness: A Book of Readings.(New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1969) 17 Kawai, Buddhist, p. 39. 18 This dream is also often simply cited as merely an insightful dream, but when cited thus, the writer frequently has not made the distinction between the dreams of the hypnogogic, and the dreams of the later REM sleep stages. 19 Tanabe, Myoe, p. 104. 20 Tanabe, Myoe, pp. 192-193. 21 Tanabe, Myoe, p. 166. 22 "Henji" refers to a peripheral land where those who doubt the wisdom of the Buddha are reborn temporarily before their entry into the Pure Land of Amida Buddha. China and Japan were themselves thought to be such peripheral lands far removed from India, the land of the pure and authentic Dharma. "Mappo no jidai" is the last of the Three Ages in Buddhism. The practice and attainment of enlightenment disappear after the first two ages, and only the teachings remain in the third, which was said to begin either 1500 or 2000 years following the death of the Buddha Sakyamuni and was to last 10,000 years. It was thought that the Kamakura Period fell precisely at the beginning of the "latter ages," and not only Myoe, but other major figures of Kamakura Buddhism such as Shinran, Honen, and Nichiren placed great emphasis upon this fact. (Bukkyogo daijiten: shukusatsu ban, 1981 ed., s.v. "honji," "mappo.") Kawai, Buddhist, p. 229, note 1. See also note 6 above. 23 Tanabe, Myoe, p. 35 (also see note 14 on p. 218). 24 "For Myoe, the precepts were means of awakening the mind for enlightenment (bodhicitta) and were the kinetic mechanism by which the mind and times of the Buddha could be re-created. Enlightenment and salvation were matters of conduct defined by the precepts as a model, as Shunjo put it, for becoming a Buddha. To live according to the precepts was to re-create the conditions of the Buddha. To do that was to become a buddha." Tanabe, Myoe, p. 46 25 Imagineering, a term used at Walt Disney World to describe the invention of new contexts for games that involve virtual and imaginary worlds that appear real through modern technology, seems to be an appropriate term to describe Myoe's attempts to bring to the common householder, the imaging experiences gained through esoteric meditative practices that would hopefully allow the participant to experience life in the Pure Land in the here and now of their daily earthbound existence. 26 While it is not an area which will be discussed in this paper it should be noted that the questions of what is real and what is objectively real are far from well-defined or even agreed upon. Moreover, efforts such as those of Myoe, in visualizing remain a strong and meaningful aspect of many Buddhist traditions today. No denigration or aspersions of doubt about their reality or their efficacy is intended. 27 The Horokaku meditation was a frequent practice for Myoe, he mentions it frequently in his writings. It is an esoteric meditation involving extensive visualization. 28 Tanabe, Myoe, p. 176. 29 Not all of the dreams that took place during this time are presented here. Rather I have selected a small number of them that serve to indicate the process of transformation Myoe was undergoing as he moved into this new and more responsible stage of his life. 30 Chikuzen was a scholar monk. He is also found in dream 49. Tanabe, Myoe, p. 170. 31 Tanabe, Myoe, p. 166-167. 32 In 1202 Myoe had planned a trip to Indian while at Itono near Ikadachi. This plan was abandoned however when he interpreted a dream of Indira as rejecting his plan. In 1205 he again made plans for a trip. This time he even began estimating the days it would take to travel the various legs of the trip. Again however, he abandoned his plans after various omens appeared to be advising him against it. Kawai, Buddhist, p. 37. 33 This dream is very similar to a dream that Myoe had much later in life: "[140] On the night of the last day of the 7th month of 1230, I dreamed that I set up two boards about a foot wide against a spot some thirty yards high. I climbed to the top of it and had the feeling of walking about on roads in India. Someone had helped me from the top, while two women had pushed from the bottom to make me climb up. Thus I made it to the top without any difficulty. I thought to myself that I have now climbed up to a spot to which I had not been able to climb up before. The thought occurred to me that I have already related this feat." Tanabe, Myoe, p. 187. In [24] he was aided from below by two of his disciples. Here he is aided by two women. Perhaps this theme of the same dream with the helpers moving from disciples to women is significant. 34 Tanabe, Myoe, p. 167. 35 Tanabe, Myoe, p. 246. 36 Tanabe, Myoe, p. 167. 37 Tanabe, Myoe, p. 170. 38 Tanabe, Myoe, p. 167. 39 Tanabe, Myoe, p. 167. 40 This leaves aside the role played by the Miyahara nun. Each of the other figures has played a predominant role in Myoe's life. The Miyahara nun, in contrast, seems to have been a late arrival (he had cured her only in the year of the dream) and is conspicuously absent in the rest of his writings and dreams. It is quite likely that she had some specific role to play in this dream, but it is also unlikely that it will ever be discernable. About all that can be said, is that she may be seen somewhat negatively simply by her association with Yoritomo. 41 The priest Ishizaki was probably Yuasa Munekage, whose residence was in Ishizaki in Yuasa. Tanabe, Myoe, p. 246 42 Tanabe, Myoe, pp. 167-168. 43 Tanabe, Myoe, p. 168. 44 Tanabe, Myoe, p. 168. 45 Tanabe, Myoe, p. 169. 46 This dream, which occurred during the year after he moved into Kozanji, is taken from the version of the Dream Diary stored in the Kyoto National Museum. 47 Kawai, Buddhist, p. 126. 48 Tanabe, Myoe, p. 156.