From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Wed Sep 15 08:18:38 1993 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 16:00:06 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 13 Sep 1993 to 14 Sep 1993 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 7 messages totalling 222 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. review of Forte 2. the accuracy of lineage lists. 3. postmodernism and the historical Buddha 4. New Taoism and Zen related materials in the Coombspapers Archives 5. Dalal Lama quote sought 6. grad schools 7. The Buddha names desire .... s ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 16:17:34 EDT From: JHUBBARD@smith.BITNET Subject: Re: review of Forte ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The review (of the Mingtang book) was in the Journal of Asian Studies, 51/3 (August 1992), and Forte's reply and Major's reply to the reply appeared in JAS 52/1 (Feb. 1993). Jamie Hubbard, Smith College ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 08:43:57 EDT From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: the accuracy of lineage lists. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On the Fabrication of Lineages: When we (the Nalanda Translation Committee) translated The Rain of Wisdom, a collection of Tibetan devotional poetry, we carefully annotated the guru yoga at its beginning. This typical liturgy lists the guru-disciple lineage of the Karmapas, the hierarchs of the Karma Kagyu lineage. There follow chapters of poems by most of the lineage holders in that liturgy. But not all and there are some extras. Now, the interesting point to to me is that we at Vajradhatu Buddhist Churches perform this lineage chant and prayer as if it were a recital of the line that reaches down to us. But this is patently false. Our teacher was Chogyam Trungpa, Rinpoche and his lineage was that of the abbots of the Surmang Monasteries. It must differ at several points radically from the karmapa guru lineage. We know that, but never worry about it. I have actually never seen a guru yoga that reflects the true sequence of teachers in my actual lineage. The Karmapa chant asserts and proclaims the continuity which must exist and chanting it stands for the continuity . It is a symbolic gesture. The same must hold true for other lineages in other sects of Buddhism. No one stands exactly in the concatenative sequence given by the authorities because each separate guru or lineage holder is as a matter of fact a separate branching. We don't trouble ourselves with a chanting of our individual branches; we just assert a standard one to symbolize the fact that there must be one for us. As a matter of fact, intheory each lama should have a sort of coupon book in which he keeps a record of the lineages involved in each of the abhishekas he receives. For example, if I receive the Cakrasamvara with Five Deities of the Karma Kagyu via the Surmang tradition, there is a document at the beginning of the ceremony that gives me the lineage through which that teaching and practice passed. I should be busily scribbling it down and putting in my book. But I don't. My teacher told me he thought he had had a book like that in TIbet, but lost it on the way out. No great loss. The thing could be reconstructed if one were to take the trouble. In a certain kind of biography you can see those diverse transmission lineages actually detailed. Perhaps they are the important point, not the generalized, over-arching historical narrative that gives a perhaps partially fabricated lineage for the hierarch of the sect. Might not the same situation hold for Galen's own lineage of Pure Land? How early did the actual historical concatenation of teachers branch off from the usual list and lead down a by-path to his own teachers in Japan? Perhaps three hundred years ago, perhaps more. Right? Robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 08:44:09 EDT From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: postmodernism and the historical Buddha ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re Galen's Nagarjuna and Devotion Question: I wonder if my approach to this issue isn't characteristic of many Tibetan Buddhists. Since I have read the works which are putatively written by Nagarjuna, I do not really believe that he was the founder of a Pure Land style sect. Nevertheless, the story that he was is very important to me psychologically. It is repeated by Tibetan lamas who are indeed principally madhyamaka instructors and is meant to make the point that the devotional approach is considered by even the most erudite and sophisticated scholars as equally valid. So when somebody says "gotcha" about Nagarjuna and devotion, I naturally feel irritation because this story, although I did not literally believe it, really meant something to me. The longer I practice Tibetan Tantra, the more vital it becomes that the Pure Land approaches be more than simply an easy way out for people lacking powers of philosophical analysis or the ability to do sophisticated meditation practices. I would be glad to explain why, but that's another subject. Robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 08:44:22 EDT From: tmc407@coombs.anu.edu.au Subject: New Taoism and Zen related materials in the Coombspapers Archives ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear Colleagues, This is to let you know that some 450kb of texts and translations by Stan Rosenthal, (Shi-tien Roshi) of the British School of Zen Taoism, Cardiff, Wales,UK have been added to the Coombspapers collection [available via FTP and/or a gopher at coombs.anu.edu.au machine] : The matarials sit in the following areas: DIRECTORY: /coombspapers/otherarchives/electronic-buddhist-archives Subdir: /buddhism-zen/information zen-terms-glossary.txt - Stan Rosenthal's glossary of japanese Zen terms DIRECTORY: /coombspapers/otherarchives/electronic-buddhist-archives Subdir: /buddhism-zen/research historical-roots-of-zen.txt - S.Rosenthal on Buddhist/Taoist roots of Zen DIRECTORY: /coombspapers/otherarchives/electronic-buddhist-archives Subdir: /buddhism-zen/ritual rules-of-chado.txt - Stan Rosenthal's description of the tea ceremony DIRECTORY: /coombspapers/otherarchives/electronic-buddhist-archives/other-asian-religio ns Subdir: /taoism/ttc-translations tao-teh-ching-transl-1-5.txt - 1984 transl.& commentaries by Stan Rosenthal tao-teh-ching-transl-2-5.txt tao-teh-ching-transl-3-5.txt tao-teh-ching-transl-4-5.txt tao-teh-ching-transl-5-5.txt Subdir: /taoism/zen-taoism-teachings time-of-blossoming.txt - a collection of lectures and essays by Stan Rosenthal vow-of-the-ten-footsteps.txt zen-taoism-essays-1.txt zen-taoism-essays-2.txt zen-taoism-essays-3.txt zen-taoism-essays-4.txt zen-taoism-precepts.txt Subdir: /taoism/zen-taoism-teachings/archived-s-rosenthal-texts stan.zip - Sep93 collection of texts by Stan Rosenthal, archived using pkzip v2.04. with many regards, -================================================== Dr T. Matthew CIOLEK tmciolek@coombs.anu.edu.au Coombs Computing Unit, Research School of Social Sciences, Australian National University, Canberra, ACT 0200, Australia =================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 08:44:46 EDT From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: Dalal Lama quote sought ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ""If a scientific finding which conflicts with Buddhist dogma is unequivocally proven and demonstrated to be true, then even the Buddha's words must be rejected." I do not know if this quote comes from one of the books produced by Jeremy Hayward and Francisco Varela and Newcomb Greenleaf, but this group of scientists, who once worked together at the Naropa Institute Cognitive Science Program, have discussed these subjects in depth with the Dalai Lama at some funded gatherings and conferences. Dr.Hayward's books address the interface between Buddhist philosophy and scientific critical intellect and Dr. Hayward probably knows the origins of that q quote. He works for Shambala PUblication and Shambala Training in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Suggest you contact him. Robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 08:45:02 EDT From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: grad schools ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Graduate Student seeking opportunity to study Chinese and Tibetan: I have thought long and hard about this. Forgive me, but I think the best program is in Paris. There you can study both Chinese religion and anthropology (depending on your slant) under people like Schipper and Fraciscus Varelen (he's sometimes away, but generally there) and you can study Tibetan from all sorts of different points of view in all sorts of different disciplines. IT's only weakness is philosophy. If your student is interested in pursuing this direction, I would be glad to make some introductions. Lack of French is not as serious a problem as one would think. Robin Kornman rkornman@pucc.princeton.edu. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 08:45:15 EDT From: Sandra Peterson Subject: Re: The Buddha names desire .... s ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Nobuyoshi Yamabe said: re: defilements that there are 108. Is this not the number of beads in a Buddhist mala or rosary? Can anyone tell me the significance of this number in Buddhism? Also, are there any books which discuss the Buddhist mala? I once heard that the Christian rosary was developed through contact with the orient? What sources are there for this? Thanks. Marshall Davis c/o spetersn@capcon.net ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 13 Sep 1993 to 14 Sep 1993 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Wed Sep 15 16:05:23 1993 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 16:01:00 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 14 Sep 1993 to 15 Sep 1993 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 11 messages totalling 270 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. A transcribed Dhamma talk 2. That little book 3. postmodernism and the historical Buddha 4. quote from H.H. Tendzin Gyatso (2) 5. Buddhist views on Death (4) 6. Buddhist Views on Death 7. The Buddha names desire .... s ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 08:25:38 EDT From: Ben Lawrence Subject: A transcribed Dhamma talk ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear Subcribers, I have available a transcription of a Dhamma talk that took place earlier this year. I will be happy to mail it to anyone who is interested if they would mail their email address to me at ben@crl.go.jp The talk contains the essence of Buddha's teachings so I a humbly ask that only sincere requests be made. yours in Dhamma, Ben. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 08:25:55 EDT From: Wong Weng Fai Subject: That little book ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi, Robin Brooks Kornman wrote ... > As a matter of fact, intheory each lama should have a sort of >coupon book in which he keeps a record of the lineages involved in >each of the abhishekas he receives. For example, if I receive the >Cakrasamvara with Five Deities of the Karma Kagyu via the Surmang >tradition, there is a document at the beginning of the ceremony that gives >me the lineage through which that teaching and practice passed. I should >be busily scribbling it down and putting in my book. But I don't. My >teacher told me he thought he had had a book like that in TIbet, but lost > it on the way out. No great loss. The thing could be reconstructed if one >were to take the trouble. I met an American who claimed to be a fully ordained lama (of the Nyinmapa, I think). He showed me (us) the little book that Dr. Kornman talked about. It had lots of stamps over it with scribbings by, he claimed, his gurus. But according to him, a lama CANNOT lose it. Once one loses it, one is no longer a lama. According to him, that means that the person who lost his little book no longer possess the karma to be a lama (pun ;-). So whether it was intentional, by thief or whatever, the loss of his little book signifies the end of his connection with the Tibetan Sangha. Anyone out there can verify this ? Sounds quite important to me. Regards, W.F. Wong. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 08:27:03 EDT From: I'm melting Subject: Re: postmodernism and the historical Buddha ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Pure Land approaches be more than simply an easy way out for people lacking > powers of philosophical analysis or the ability to do sophisticated > meditation practices. > > I would be glad to explain why, but that's another subject. > > Robin Kornman Please Do explain why. I feel that I have an intuitive understanding of 'why', but I have trouble communicating it to anmyone else, or even myself, for that matter. thanks, -erik ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 10:42:40 EDT From: Kish Subject: Re: quote from H.H. Tendzin Gyatso ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- -------- "If a scientific finding which conflicts with Buddhist dogma is unequivocally proven and demonstrated to be true, then even the Buddha's words must be rejected." -------- There are words to this effect on page 20 of "The Bodhgaya Interviews". To wit: Suppose that something is definitely proved through scientific investigation. That a certain hypothesis is verified or that a certain fact emerges as a result of scientific investigation. And suppose, furthermore, that that fact is incompatible with Buddhist theory. There is no doubt that we must accept the result of scientific research. You see, the general Buddhist position is that we must accept *fact*. You might also look in Richard Avedon's book of interviews with H.H., the title of which escapes me at the moment. -Bill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 11:44:46 EDT From: SAMUELS JEFFREY Subject: Buddhist views on Death ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Reginald Ray, who is currently teaching a course on death and dying in Tibetan Buddhism, asked me to post a request for sources on Buddha-L. He is looking for either books or articles which discuss Buddhist views and even American Buddhist views concerning dying and the death process. Responses may either be posted for the benefit of all other people using Buddha-L or sent directly to me -- Jeff Samuels (samuels@ucsu.colorado.edu). Thanks you, Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 14:52:37 EDT From: RQ021RE Subject: Buddhist views on Death ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re American Buddhist views: A well-known figure on the lecture circuit is Stephen Levine, who began working with Ram Dass. He has a number of tapes and books out, including _Who Dies?_ He has worked extensively with people with AIDS. Andy Fort rq021re@tcuamus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 14:53:09 EDT From: Dave Tilley Subject: Re: Buddhist views on Death ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Reginald Ray, who is currently teaching a course on death and > dying in Tibetan Buddhism, asked me to post a request for sources on > Buddha-L. He is looking for either books or articles which discuss > Buddhist views and even American Buddhist views concerning dying and > the death process. Responses may either be posted for the benefit of > all other people using Buddha-L or sent directly to me -- Jeff > Samuels (samuels@ucsu.colorado.edu). > > Thanks you, > > Jeff > Two that I can suggest are: The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying - Sogyal Rinpoche This is a fabulous book! The Tibetan Book of the Dead - Trungpa This has a very good commentary and is very readable. Dave Tilley tilley@kodak.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 14:53:25 EDT From: "gfitz@vnet.ibm.com (Greg Fitzpatrick)" Subject: Re: Buddhist Views on Death ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I recent purchased 'The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying' by Rinpoche. It appears to be a new publication that (I am told) has gotten quite favorable reviews. I have not read it yet. Should be available in most larger bookstores. Perhaps others on this list have read it and can give some substantive commentary. ------------------------------------------------------------- | Greg Fitzpatrick | ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 14:53:50 EDT From: Richard Belshoff Subject: Re: Buddhist views on Death ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Wed, 15 Sep 1993, SAMUELS JEFFREY wrote: > Reginald Ray, who is currently teaching a course on death and > dying in Tibetan Buddhism, asked me to post a request for sources on > Buddha-L. He is looking for either books or articles which discuss > Buddhist views and even American Buddhist views concerning dying and > the death process. Responses may either be posted for the benefit of > all other people using Buddha-L or sent directly to me -- Jeff > Samuels (samuels@ucsu.colorado.edu). > > Thanks you, > > Jeff You might try the book "Who dies" by Stephen Levine. --- Richard Belshoff rgb865f@csm560.smsu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 14:54:09 EDT From: Lefty Subject: Re: quote from H.H. Tendzin Gyatso ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >You might also look in Richard Avedon's book of interviews with H.H., the >title of which escapes me at the moment. _John_ Avedon. Richard is, I think, the photographer, while John is the author of "In Exile From the Land of Snows". I believe the book in question is simply called "Interview With the Dalai Lama". -- Lefty (lefty@apple.com) C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 15:55:17 EDT From: Nobuyoshi Yamabe Subject: Re: The Buddha names desire .... s ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- 108 beads of a Buddhist rosary is usually explained in terms of 108 "defilements," at least in Japan. However, textual basis for this explanation is not very clear (_Bukkyoo daijiten_ s.v. "juzu"). Since rosaries of 108 beads are also used in non-Buddhist Indian traditions (_Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics_ s.v. "rosaries"; _L'Inde classique_ 1172), I'm not quite sure if 108 "defilements" was the original meaning of the number of the beads. Albrecht Weber maintained the Indian origin of the Christian rosary (_Ueber die K.rish.najanmaash.tamii: K.rish.na's Geburtsfest, 1868, 340-41). He suspected that the word rosarium was based on a misunderstanding of a Sanskrit word japamaalaa "a wreath for muttering prayer" as japaamaalaa "a wreath of roses." But here again, I'm not sure how well this argument is grounded. There may be handier sources for this topic, but I'm sorry I don't know. For now, please check _Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics_, s.v. "rosaries," which is very detailed and informative. Nobuyoshi Yamabe (yamnoba@yalevm) ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 14 Sep 1993 to 15 Sep 1993 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Thu Sep 16 16:06:04 1993 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 16:01:14 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 15 Sep 1993 to 16 Sep 1993 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 11 messages totalling 425 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. ROSARIES 2. hindu/indian philosophy forum 3. Buddhist views on Death 4. postmodernism and the historical Buddha (2) 5. That little book 6. The Buddha names desire .... s 7. I heard a rumour ... 8. A transcribed Dhamma talk 9. Death in Tibetan Buddhism 10. John and Richard Avedon ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 08:35:48 EDT From: pgm@ukc.ac.uk Subject: ROSARIES ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- It is worth remembering that there are in fact two quite distinct traditions of Christian rosary, the older one deriving from the desert tradition of the first few centuries and later associated with the repetition of the Jesus Prayer, the later one traditionally associated with St Dominic and devotion to Mary the Mother of Christ. The former is quite simple in form: a string of wooden beads or (in the Russian Orthodox tradition) a knotted woollen cord. The latter (used in the western, Catholic tradition) is more complex in form and liturgical function: 3 x 5 sets of beads plus extra beads and a crucifix. Liturgically and iconographically it is associated with the various 'mysteries' of Mary. In neither case is there is any need to invoke cultural influence -- at least not for the actual origin of these devices. The desert fathers used a pile of stones for counting prayers, and beads on a string is a pretty obvious idea. There's probably some cultural traffic between the eastern Orthodox rosary and the Muslim rosary, and, ironically, the Greek 'worry beads' visitors to Greece may have seen used in a purely secular context probably owe as much to Turkish rosaries as they do to Greek Orthodox ones. The best book I know of about the western rosary tradition is by Eithne Wilkins and is called The Rose-Garden Game: the symbolic background to the European prayer-beads (London, 1969). Rosarium was originally a rose-garden. Peter Moore, University of Kent at Canterbury ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 08:36:02 EDT From: Michael Cohen Subject: hindu/indian philosophy forum ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Does anyone know that address of a on-line discussion group dedicated to hinduism and/or indian philosophy? Thanks, M.A.Cohen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 08:36:13 EDT From: flemming.skahjem-eriksen@si.dep.telemax.no Subject: Buddhist views on Death ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- We have an excellent 90-minutes audio-tape with teachings on death and the Bardo, which was recorded at the Karma Tashi Ling buddhistcenter in Oslo in June this year, by the female teacher Khandro Rinpoche. She speaks a very good english and the recording is of good quality. The selling-price is around USD10 pluss mailing charges. It can be ordered through me at: Flemming.Skahjem-Eriksen@SI.Dep.Telemax.no Anyone who is interested, please include your snail-mail address! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 08:36:25 EDT From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: postmodernism and the historical Buddha ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- "> Pure Land approaches are more than simply an easy way out for people lacking > powers of philosophical analysis or the ability to do sophisticated > meditation practices." Here are three reasons why this is so. There are more, but these are three things I've run into in the discourse of the Kagyu and Nyingma lineages. 1) The word "pure" in "Pure Land" can be taken as having a philosophical interpretation. Pure in the sense of free from false ontological distinctions, free from the mistakes of exageration and denigration. In short "pure" is in effect the same as "empty of self-nature." Why? Because things are taken to truly exist by a consciousness operating through the five skandhas. The second skandha is feeling-- the distinction between good, bad, and neutral feeling tones. If form, the first skandha, cannot have assigned to it one of the three feelings, then it does not evolve into the fifth skandha and reification does not take place. Now in the Pure Land there are no bad or neutral feelings. Everything is good, pure, pleasant etc. Therefore, the kind of emotive distinguishing necessary to the process of reification has no basis. Where there is no bad and good, but only good, there is no good in the ordinary sense. Without the alternation of good and bad, there is no good--- there is no contrast. SO, for example, people born into the Pure land are free from kama, desire, according to the mythos. Because, there being nothing to desire, there can be no desire. If you possess every desirable object, you would have no desire and no aversion either. 2. The Pure Land is a symbol for an enlightened society. It gets associated with East Asian myths of Utopianism. And this is in itself a profound and interesting subject. There are myths of ideal "hidden lands" across East Asia, from "The Peach Grove Record" to stories of the Kingdom of Shambhala. These myths always relate to political positions and historiographical theorizing in an interesting way. So Pure Lands are not just vast Dharma Hotels for the unskilled. They are symbols for Buddhist ideal societies. 3. Amidism is important to Tibetan political identity. Padmasambhava is almost described in his legends as the co-founder of the religious kingdom of Tibet. Even though the period of the great Kings such as Trisong De'u Tsen ended, still the ideal of a sort of Dharma Imperium continued to be important in Tibetan political consciousness. Now, Padmasambhava is often seen as an emanation of Amitabha or bound up with the Buddha Activity of Amitabha, because Amitabha is the Lord of the Padma Family in the Mandala of the Five Jinas. The Epic of Gesar of Ling is connected with this matrix of ideas. For Gesar is seen in certain branches of the Nyingma tradition as an emanation of Padmasambhava and the yidam Hayagriiva, both extensions of Amitabha. So you have tantric practices in which the three kayas are Amitabha, Padmasambhava, and Gesar respectively. Gesar is a political savior. This is an example of how Amidism can and often does play a real complex role in Tibetan religious and political philosophy and Buddhist historiography. My feeling is that when I have read more about Pure Land Buddhism I will find that it is always tied up in a characteristic way with political action and the concept of Buddha Activity. And this is a vast and profound idea. The notion of the Incarnation in Catholicism involves the inexplicable interference of an omnipotent deity in human affairs in a specific hsitorical context. It becomes a symbol for artistic creativity and lots of other profound things. The principle of the avatar in Vaishnavism is equally profound and vast. Combining the timeless with the historical. Well, I suspect that Amidism with its principle of Buddha Activity, is one of the Buddhist versions of this basic human idea--- the mysterious interference of timeless beings in historical reality. I don't think we discuss issues like this enough when we discuss Pure Land in an academic context. Perhaps because we don't look closely at the texts involved. Instead we fasten our attention on the popularist movements which are just one branch of the Pure Land religion. Robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 08:36:38 EDT From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: That little book ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- "I met an American who claimed to be a fully ordained lama (of the Nyinmapa, I think). He showed me (us) the little book that Dr. Kornman talked about. It had lots of stamps over it with scribbings by, he claimed, his gurus. But according to him, a lama CANNOT lose it. Once one loses it, one is no longer a lama. According to him, that means that the person who lost his little book no longer possess the karma to be a lama (pun ;-). So whether it was intentional, by thief or whatever, the loss of his little book signifies the end of his connection with the Tibetan Sangha." Mr. Wong's informant probably has the same blind man/elephant syndrome I have. Those of us who have acquired our knowledge of Tibetan Buddhism in the field by studying with lamas depend on just one or two Tibetans for our whole view of Tibetan culture. I don't know about my colleagues, but I spent the first decade and a half of my tutelege making vast over-generalizat ions about what is and is not the norm in Tibetan ritual and practice. And I avidly informed my friends of all the things I was sure were rules. They turned out to be the norm for a few specific monasteries at specific periods and under pretty narrow circumstances. Mr. Wong's informant sounds like he's doing the same thing. My informant didn't think the little book was all that important, perhaps because he lost his. He told me they were firing at him as he escaped across the Tibetan border with machine guns.God knows what else he dropped. Once his housekeeper, so she told me, vacuumed up by accident half the remains of his previous incarnation. Maybe he should have dropped that and kept the book! Robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 08:36:53 EDT From: clarkd@sfu.ca Subject: Re: The Buddha names desire .... s ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > > 108 beads of a Buddhist rosary is usually explained in terms of 108 > "defilements," at least in Japan. However, textual basis for this > explanation is not very clear (_Bukkyoo daijiten_ s.v. "juzu"). Since > rosaries of 108 beads are also used in non-Buddhist Indian traditions > (_Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics_ s.v. "rosaries"; _L'Inde > classique_ 1172), I'm not quite sure if 108 "defilements" was the > original meaning of the number of the beads. > > Albrecht Weber maintained the Indian origin of the Christian rosary > (_Ueber die K.rish.najanmaash.tamii: K.rish.na's Geburtsfest, 1868, > 340-41). He suspected that the word rosarium was based on a > misunderstanding of a Sanskrit word japamaalaa "a wreath for muttering > prayer" as japaamaalaa "a wreath of roses." But here again, I'm not > sure how well this argument is grounded. > > There may be handier sources for this topic, but I'm sorry I don't know. > For now, please check _Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics_, s.v. > "rosaries," which is very detailed and informative. > > Nobuyoshi Yamabe (yamnoba@yalevm) > Thank you for your careful responses, but in my original question I was more interested in the 108 desires I had heard of. Do you know anything more about these? Susan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 08:37:13 EDT From: Galen Amstutz Subject: Re: I heard a rumour ... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In Message Thu, 9 Sep 1993 08:34:45 EDT, Wong Weng Fai writes: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > >Hello, > >While still on the subject of Pure Land ... I just came across a suggestion >that Pure Land came about because in spreading north, Indian Mahayanists >met up with Zoroastrianism. Also, according to my "Dictionary of Religions" >ed. John R. Hinnells, the sect probably started in the north-west area of >India - highly possible that its within Iranian influence. > >Any clues ? > >W.F. Wong. > >PS : Again, this is NOT a covert attempt to make the Pure Land folks look >bad - just a plain factual curiosity of mine. The idea that the "bhaktic" structure of Pure Land myth was inspired by Near Eastern traditions has been around since the 19th century, because, it may be suspected, the 19th century missionaries had trouble believing a doctrine with such a Christian-like structure could develop independently. It is usually thought to be possible, but difficult to prove, that PL picked up more of this structural influence, images, etc. on the way to China. However, it might be best to be suspicious of the suspicion that PL couldn't have come up with "bhaktic" patterns on its own. It helps to look into Hinduism too...where there has been a HUGE, and eventually quite philosophically sophisticated, network of bhakti traditions, which are unfortunately hardly ever put into the same context as Buddhism, but could have supplied mythic inspiration for PL. And so on. More Buddhist studies needed! from: Galen Amstutz, Department of Religion, 231 Williams Bldg. R-15, Florida State University, Tallahassee FL 32306-1029 (904)644-0213 fax:(904)644-7225 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 08:37:30 EDT From: tmc407@coombs.anu.edu.au Subject: Re: A transcribed Dhamma talk ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear Ben, > I have available a transcription of a Dhamma talk >that took place earlier this year. I will be happy to mail >it to anyone who is interested if they would mail their >email address to me at >ben@crl.go.jp > I would be interested in obtaining a copy of the Dhamma talk for our Electronic Buddhist Archives colllection, which is a part of the Coombspapers Social Sciences Research Data Bank (ANU) - with many thanks and a gassho, -================================================== Dr T. Matthew CIOLEK tmciolek@coombs.anu.edu.au Coombs Computing Unit, Research School of Social Sciences, Australian National University, Canberra, ACT 0200, Australia =================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 08:37:44 EDT From: C John Powers Subject: Death in Tibetan Buddhism ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Here are a few sources on death and dying in Tibetan Buddhism: Bokar Rinpoche. _Mort et art de mourir dans le bouddhism tibetaine_. Eguilles: Claire Lumiere, 1989. Campbell, Joseph. _The Tibetan Book of the Dead_. Tiburon, CA: Big Sur Tapes, 1990 (Cassette tapes). Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche. _Life in Relation to Death_. Cottage Grove, OR: Padma Publishing, 1987. Chogyi Nyima Rinpoche. _Bardo Guidebook_. Hong Kong: Rangjung Yeshe Publications, 1991. Evans-Wentz, W.Y. and Kazi Dawa Samdup. _Tibetan Book of the Dead_. London: Oxford U. Press, 1957. Fremantle, Francesca and Trungpa, Chogyam. _The Tibetan Book of the Dead_ (Berkeley: Shambhala, 1975. Giacomella, Orofino. _Sacred Tibetan Teachings on Death and Liberation_. Dorset: Prism Press (distributed by Avery Publishing, NY), 1990. Hopkins, Jeffrey. _Seminar on Death and Impermanence_ Ithaca: Snow Lion, 1980 (3 cassettes). Imaeda, Yoshiro. _Histoire du cycle de la naissance et de la mort etude d'un texts tibetaine de Touen-houang_. Geneva: Librarie Droz, 1991. Kunsang, Erik Pema, tr. _Mirror of Mindfulness: The Cycle of the Four Bardos_. Boston: Shambhala, 1989. Kvaerne, Per. _Tibet: Bon Religion: A Death Ritual of the Tibetan Bonpos_. Leiden: EJ Brill, 1985. Lama Lodo. _Bardo Teachings: The Way of Death and Rebirth_. London: Wisdom, 1982. Lama Yeshe. _Life, Death, and After Death_. London: Wisdom, 1983. Lama Yeshe. _Transference of Consciousness at the Time of Death. London: Wisdom, 1985. Lati Rinbochay and Hopkins, Jeffrey. _Death, Intermediate State and Rebirth in Tibetan Buddhism_. Ithaca: Snow Lion, 1979. Laut, Detlef Ingo. _Secret Doctrines of the Tibetan Books of the Dead_. Boston: Shambhala, 1977. Lee, Jung-young. _Death and Beyond in the Eastern Perspective: A Study Based on the Bardo Thodol and the I-Ching_. Gordon and Breach, 1974. Macdonald, Alexander W. _Mat'eriaux pour l''etude de la litt'erature populaire tib'etaine...'Histoires du cadavre'_. Paris: Presses Universitaires de France, 1967. McHovec, Frank J., tr. _The Tibetan Book of the Dead_. Mount Vernon, NY: Peter Pauper Press, 1972. Mullin, Glenn H. _Death and Dying: The Tibetan Tradition_. New York: Arkana, 1986. Orofino, Giacomella. _Sacred Tibetan Teachings on Death and Liberation_. Garden City Park, NY: Unity, 1990. _Sacred Tibetan Teachings on Death and Liberation_ (no author listed). New York: Prism, 1990. Sogyal Rinpoche. _The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. San Francisco: Harper, 1992. Stein, Rolf A. _Recherches sur l''epop'ee et le barde du Tibet_. Paris: Presses Universitaires, 1959. There are also a number of good articles on death and related subjects. I've compiled a bibliography on Tibetan views of death and dying, which includes the sources listed above, along with about 20 other references, in various languages. If anyone would like a copy, I'd be happy to share it. Also, my forthcoming textbook on Tibetan Buddhism (scheduled for release in January, provided that the author gets his act together) will have a chapter on Tibetan views and practices connected with death and dying. It will discuss meditation on death, bardo, and mortuary practices. The title is: _An Introduction to Tibetan Buddhism_, and will be published by Snow Lion. John Powers Grinnell College powers@grin1.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 12:45:52 EDT From: Kish Subject: John and Richard Avedon ... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Lefty: > _John_ Avedon. Richard is, I think, the photographer, while John is the > author of "In Exile From the Land of Snows". I believe the book in > question is simply called "Interview With the Dalai Lama". You're quite right. I don't actually own the book, and took a wide angled guess wrt the author's first name. The book is interesting nonetheless (I read parts of it in a bookstore once). -Bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 15:23:04 EDT From: JHUBBARD@smith.BITNET Subject: Re: postmodernism and the historical Buddha ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >1) The word "pure" in "Pure Land" can be taken as having a philosophical >interpretation. Pure in the sense of free from false ontological distinctions, >free from the mistakes of exageration and denigration. In short "pure" >is in effect the same as "empty of self-nature." Why? Because things are >taken to truly exist by a consciousness operating through the five skandhas. >The second skandha is feeling-- the distinction between good, bad, and neutral >feeling tones. If form, the first skandha, cannot have assigned to it one >of the three feelings, then it does not evolve into the fifth skandha and >reification does not take place. Perhaps one of the most famous lines from the Vimalakiirti is:: "If the bodhisattva wishes to obtain the pure land then she should purify her mind; the purity of the Buddha's land is in accordance with the purity of the mind." T 475, 14.538c4-5 (Kumaarajiiva translation) This is in the context of purifying living beings, etc. While this quote is very popular and oft cited in Japanese apologetics to support a claim such as Roger's above, I am not sure what this has to do with the pure land tradition of the Larger Suutra, etc., which may well be from an entirely different episteme. Jamie Hubbard, Smith College ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 15 Sep 1993 to 16 Sep 1993 *************************************************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Fri Sep 17 16:05:47 1993 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 16:00:11 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 16 Sep 1993 to 17 Sep 1993 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 5 messages totalling 799 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Ariya 2. The Buddha names desire .... s (2) 3. Vimalakirti's "pure" land 4. Report on Unicode Proposed Encoding for Tibetan and Sinhalese ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 08:23:51 EDT From: breedon%kekvax.hepnet@Lbl.Bitnet Subject: Ariya ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hello Buddha-netters, I have a question concerning a Buddhist sect and the proper terminology to use to describe it: King Annirudha of the Pagan period (1044-1077) was converted to Buddhism by Shin Arahat who came from the Mon kingdon of Thaton. It is believed that a type of Theravada Buddhism was the main practice in the Mon kingdom at that time. At least one scholar has referred to this practice as "ariya" (pre-Singhalese sect). I would like to know whether this is generally considered to be the correct term. In addition, could anyone tell me more about the sect itself and perhaps provide a reference? Thank you in advance for any help you are able to provide. -Richard Breedon Tsukuba, Japan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 08:24:05 EDT From: Nobuyoshi Yamabe Subject: Re: The Buddha names desire .... s ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi, Susan. Thank you for your response. As you have probably noticed, my posting this time was a response to Marshall Davis, who asked about Buddhist and Christian rosaries. Did you see my previous posting? Could you tell me what kind of information on desires you are looking for? Thank you, Dr. Moore, for your detailed information on Christian rosaries. If memory serves, Japanese Catholic people used both longer (regular) rosaries and shorter ones in the 16-17th century. Is this related to the two traditions of Christian rosaries? Please pardon me for my insufficient knowledge in this regard. Nobuyoshi Yamabe (yamnoba@yalevm) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 08:24:57 EDT From: Dan Lusthaus Subject: Vimalakirti's "pure" land ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Perhaps one of the most famous lines from the Vimalakiirti is:: > >"If the bodhisattva wishes to obtain the pure land then she should purify >her mind; the purity of the Buddha's land is in accordance with the purity >of the mind." T 475, 14.538c4-5 (Kumaarajiiva translation) > >This is in the context of purifying living beings, etc. While this quote is >very popular and oft cited in Japanese apologetics to support a claim such as >Roger's above, I am not sure what this has to do with the pure land tradition >of >the Larger Suutra, etc., which may well be from an entirely different >episteme. > >Jamie Hubbard, Smith College As I'm sure Jamie knows, this mention of "pure land," possibly the first appearance of "ching-t'u" ("pure land") in Chinese, seems to have been a gloss by Kumaarajiiva, since the Tibetan version doesn't mention "pure land" but "buddha-land" instead. As there was no Pure Land Buddhism in China during Kumarajiva's time, it's not clear what K. intended with that gloss; but in later centuries as Pure Land got up and running it became one of the lines PureLanders latched onto. Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 14:16:16 EDT From: Michael Everson Subject: Report on Unicode Proposed Encoding for Tibetan and Sinhalese ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Everson Gunn Teoranta 15 Port Chaeimhghein I/ochtarach Baile A/tha Cliath 2, E/ire +353 1 478-2597 everson@irlearn.ucd.ie 17.ix.93 The Unicode Consortium 1965 Charleston Avenue Mountain View, CA 94043 USA Upon review of Unicode Technical Report #2, the Preliminary Draft Proposals for Tibetan and Sinhalese encoding, I offer below the following recommendations. The chief recommendation is that both Tibetan and Sinhalese be encoded according to the standard ISCII encoding for Brahmi-derived scripts in order to facilitate transfer of texts written in the Sanskrit and Pali languages to the other Brahmi-derived scripts in which these two languages are commonly written. I trust that these comments will be of use. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to review this material. Michael Everson Director cc: Rick McGowan cc: Tibetan Language Committee, Lhasa REPORT ON UNICODE PROPOSED ENCODING FOR TIBETAN AND SINHALESE 1.0 Tibetan and Sinhalese scripts should have ISCII-parallel encodng to support the Sanskrit and Pali languages. 1.1 The corpus of Sanskrit and Pali literature is enormous (estimated to be larger than all of Classical Greek and Latin combined). Sanskrit in particular occupies a unique position among world languages in that it can, and has been, legitimately be written in many scripts: Devanagari, Bengali, Gurmukhi, Gujarati, Oriya, Tamil (Grantha), Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam, Thai, Burmese, Javanese, Tibetan, and Sinhalese, as well as the Latin alphabet (and other scripts), have each been used to a greater or lesser extant in manuscripts and printed books in the Sanskrit and Pali languages. Pali is most often written in Burmese, Sinhalese, Thai, Lao, and Khmer scripts (as well as Latin in the present day). The Unicode proposal for Burmese conforms to ISCII encoding (at least with regard to the characters relevant to Sanskrit and Pali), and the Unicode Draft Proposal for Khmer suggests that either Thai-parallel encoding or ISCII-parallel encoding might be appropriate "for political reasons". (I favour ISCII for Khmer because its script is so Brahmi-conformant.) 1.2 ISCII-parallel encoding facilitates text transfer. Because Sanskrit stands in the unique position of being the _only_ language in the world which is/has been commonly written in _more than ten_ scripts, the question of script transfer is particularly acute for Sanskrit texts. Works written by scholars who read one script could, with parallel encoding, be transliterated exactly via simple constant offset algorithms, so long as the Brahmi-derived scripts are encoded in a parallel fashion. This is the whole idea behind parallel encoding, and I assume, in the absence of any particular knowledge of the history of the ISCII encoding, that the idea was to permit simple script transfer for the modern languages of India by providing a structure for such constant offset transliteration. One advantage of this, for instance, might be to facilitate the quick transliteration of computerized corpora such as telephone directories or other databases for the benefit of users who prefer one script over another. (This might be considered an _a priori_ advantage for Sinhalese, as both Sinhalese and Tamil are used in Sri Lanka.) For Sanskrit and Pali, the whole body of traditional literature could (and should) benefit from the same facility. 1.3 ISCII-parallel encoding does not impede processing in Tibetan or Sinhalese. Obviously the most important use made of the Tibetan and Sinhalese scripts is to write Tibetan and Sinhalese. The arguments against ISCII-parallel encoding chiefly reside in the proposition that "natural" sorting order is adversely affected by such encoding. However, not only do the Unicode guidelines state specifically (Unicode 1.0 Vol. 1, p. 9, pp. 626-27) that sorting routines are to be dealt with outside the codepage, but neither the ISCII-conformant scripts at present, nor either the Tibetan or Sinhalese proposals currently under review provide perfect sort order (characters U+0958 --> 095F in Devanagari are encoded "out of order", for instance). Thus encoding via "natural" sorting order 1) has hardly been implemented for _any_ Unicode script (Georgian comes close but for Khutsuri one would have to interperse upper- and lower-case; "natural" sorting order would have them alternate on the codepage) and 2) is of illusory value as sorting algorithms take more complex information than codepage order into account and, certainly for Tibetan and Sinhalese, will have to be explicitly written whether they conform to ISCII or "natural" sorting order. Dictionary sorting in Tibetan is hardly a straightforward linear process, but rather a hierarchy of successively applied rules on a syllable-by-syllable basis. "Natural" sorting order is of no particular utility for Tibetan; I give below in an appendix Hannah's summary of Tibetan sorting rules and an example of the sort of the letter KA in Das' dictionary. 1.4 Sorting Sanskrit and Pali is simpler with ISCII-parallel encoding. The significant advantage of ISCII-parallel encoding for Tibetan and Sinhalese is that only one sorting algorithm will need to be written for the Sanskrit and Pali languages, with constant offset being taken into account to rewrite the algorithms for each script. Each of the ISCII-compatible scripts has some of its own features encoded, as Tibetan and Sinhalese would require; but they are unified as to the characters they all have in common, which as it turns out are the core Brahmi characters used in Sanskrit and Pali. It would certainly be a mistake not to provide codepoints in Tibetan for the Sanskrit voiced aspirants; although they are stacked ligatures in Tibetan, they are separate characters in Sanskrit and the same logic which provides LATIN LETTER N J to match CYRILLIC LETTER NJE in support of Serbocroatian (one language written in two scripts) must apply for Tibetan in support of the Sanskrit language and its literature. ISCII compatibility serves Sanskrit and Pali perfectly, and creates no particular burden for either Sinhalese or Tibetan. The reverse is not the case. Stacked ligatures GHA, JHA, DDHA, DHA, and BHA are not used except for Sanskrit words; LHA is an exception in that it is used in Tibetan but not Sanskrit (Hannah 1912:18). Precomposed initial vowels (A, AA, I, II, U, UU etc.) might not be used for the Tibetan language itself, but are necessary for painless reversible script transfer 1.5 The relation of Tibetan TSEG to Sanskrit requires more investigation. Reversible transfer of text between ISCII-conformant Sinhalese and the other ISCII-conformant scripts presents no problem. However, the nature of Tibetan TSEG must be fully investigated in order to determine whether it would present a problem for Tibetan-encoded Sanskrit. Two possible solutions come to mind. One is not to have a separate TSEG at all, but to make use of the virama and/or zero-width joiners and zero-width-nonjoiners to determine syllable boundary, and have the TSEG appear as a presentation form. In order to see if this is feasible, I am going through my Tibetan dictionary taking down Sanskrit words so that I can compare the two. At first glance it looks as though a virama solution could work for Sanskrit in Tibetan script. Another possible solution involves adding an invisible TSEG character to the rest of the ISCII-conformant scripts to make them compatible with Tibetan-script encoded Sanskrit texts (the unused first codepoint in each script would be an ideal place to put this, e.g. U+0900, U+0980, U+0A00, U+0A80, etc). Obviously input of this character would not be required by other scripts, but it would be a _legal_ character and would not have to be deleted from texts encoded first in Tibetan. Texts transferred from e.g. Burmese script to Tibetan might need some (possibly non-trivial) post-transfer processing to insert all the TSEGs. ISCII-conformancy for Tibetan would ensure that at least all the vowels and consonants would be represented accurately in parallel. The implications for multi-script publishing, glossaries, and databases which could be transparently accessed with a script filter, and so forth, makes it well worth investigating this matter further. 1.6 Multi-script publishing of Sanskrit and Pali is a significant concern. Scripts do not exist in a vacuum, and have no value in themselves except insofar as they are used. It can be easily seen that Tibetan and Sinhalese are used for Sanskrit and Pali and that convenient, transparent, reversible interchange between them and Devanagari and Burmese (two other scripts which make great use of Sanskrit and Pali) should be supported by the encoding schemes in the same way as convenient, transparent, reversible interchange between Latin and Cyrillic is in support of Croatian and Serbian. It is easy to envision a simple script filter utility that could that transliterate and display text on CD-ROM _without reencoding_ the text for languages like Sanskrit or Serbocroation which are commonly written in multiple scripts. On 1 July 1993, Ashok Aklujkar (aklujkar@unixg.ubc.ca) said on the Indology list: "While the Sanskrit and Prakrit scholars at Indian institutions of higher learning have hardly caught up with the computer age (and some are unfortunately not even willing to consider how computers will assist their and their institutions' work), the Jain monk-scholars, in my experience, have shown a very progressive attitude. They are collaborating with their lay computer experts and producing many important tools of research. (I should perhaps be able to write more on this in a report I am thinking of publishing on my tours for manuscripts in India.) The Sharadaben Chimanlal Educational Research Centre, "Darshan", Opposite Raakpur Society, Shahibag, Ahmedabad 380004, has about 100,000 Prakrit gaathaas computerised, besides large sections of Jain aagama works and bibliographies of writings on Jainism. It recently computer-published 3 vols. of Jambuvijayaji's catalogue of Patan mss. and is said to have an IBM-compatible program for Naagari sorting. Muni Jinendra-vijaya, whose work is guided out of Jamnagar, Saurashtra, Gujarat, is in the process of compiling a cumulative list of manuscripts in known or catalogued Jain collections. The person assisting him on the computer side is: Mr. Mahendra Modi, Galaxy Printers, Alankar Chambers, Dhebar Chowk, Rajkot 60 001. Mr. Modi was looking for a Naagari sorting program for the Macintosh and may have prevailed upon some computer programmer by now to develop one for him and for the Muni's work." Prakrit dialects are closely related to Sanskrit and Pali and Jain literature would benefit from implementation of ISCII-encoding of the Tibetan and Sinhalese scripts as well. On 15 September 1993 Michael Witzel (witzel@husc3.harvard.edu) said on the Indology list: GOOD NEWS FROM THAILAND for all interested in Buddhism and Indian Studies. The Dhammakaya Foundation has completed the input of the whole Pali Tipitaka and is readying it for publication and distribution. The Foundation has decided to distribute it on CD-ROM f r e e of charge in the spirit of the teaching and propagation of Buddhism. All those interested in receiving a copy of the text should write to: Nicolas C. Wood, c/o Dattajivo Bhikkhu, The Dhammakaya Foundation, Pathumthani 12120 Thailand; or send an e-mail message c/o witzel@husc3.harvard.edu. I have not as yet received an answer as to what format these texts are encoded in,, but it will certainly be available in ISCII at some stage. It seems to me that it would be contrary to Unicode principles to make it less available to the Tibetan and Sinhalese scripts by not implementing standard Brahmi-encoding for them. Constant-offset transliteration, which implies ISCII-parallel encoding, is the best solution to the fact that Sanskrit, Prakrit, and Pali are written in many scripts. Parallel encoding will ensure that important texts such as the Pali Tipit.aka (the Theravada Buddhist Canon, comparable to the Judeo-Christian Bible but closer to the size of the Encyclopaedia Britannica) could be made available, eventually, in a format which could be read by anyone with an appropriate script filter. I urge the members of the Unicode Consortium to discuss the question of Sanskrit and Pali encoding with their colleagues in Tibet and Sri Lanka. I am forwarding a copy of this report to the Indology list (indology@liverpool.ac.uk), to the ISO 10646 list (iso10646@jhuvm), to the Asian Classics Input Project (acip@weell.sf.ca.us), to both Buddhism discussions (buddha-l@ulkyvm and buddhist@jpntohok), the Tamil list (tamil-l@dhdurz1), and the Tibetan Language Committee at Tibet University in Lhasa for comment, as well as to the Unicode Scripts Subcommittee (scripts-sc@unicode.org). I would appreciate it if anyone could forward it on to a relevant body in Sri Lanka. In a few days I will upload ISCII-parallel proposals for encoding Tibetan and Sinhalese. I am sure that such proposals have been submitted previously, but as I have not seen any I thought it best to do so. I will also have looked a little more thoroughly at TSEG and hope to offer some examples for discussion. I look forward to further discussions of these points. Michael Everson Das, Sarat Chandra. 1902, 1976. _A Tibetan-English dictionary, with Sanskrit synonyms._ Rev. and edited under the orders of the Government of Bengal by Graham Sandberg and A. William Heyde. Delhi : Motilal Banarsidass. Hannah, Herbert Bruce. 1912, 1985. _A grammar of the Tibetan language, literary and colloquial._ With copious illustrations, and treating fully of spelling, pronunciation and the construction of the verb, and including appendices of the various forms of the verb. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. Appendix on Tibetan sorting (Hannah 1912:55-57): [I have tried to follow the traditional transliteration of Tibetan for Hannah's Tibetan examples and have modernized the format somewhat. For 7-bit transmission, I use _ for MACRON BELOW, * for DOT BELOW, / for MACRON ABOVE, and @ for DOT ABOVE. Syllable boundary is represented by a hyphen. The hardcopy is set in Tibetan as well as transliteration] "#23. Use of the Tibetan Dictionary The following appears to be the way in which the words in a Tibetan dictionary (TSHIG-M_DSOD_) are arranged. 1. According to the order of the KA/-LI, or Consonantal Series of the KA-KHA, regarded as Initials, or as they are sometimes called, Root letters, with the inherent vowel-sound of A. The first thing, therefore, that the student has to do, when he wants to look up a word, is to ascertain what its initial letter is. Then the words under each consonant, beginning for instance with KA, are arranged thus: 2. The simple consonant, e.g. KA. 3. The simple consonant with subjuncts like H_A, WA-ZUR, or S@A-LOG-KHA, e.g. LWA-BA 'woollen blanket' 4. The simple consonant with affixes, single and double, for the order of which is as amongst themselves, see #16. [Order is GA, GA-SA, N@A, N@A-SA, DA, NA, BA, BA-SA, MA, MA-SA, H_A, RA, LA, SA)] 5. Next, according to the foregoing order as regards their consonants, words qualified by the vowel-signs GI-GU [I], SHABS_-KYU [U], H_KREN@-BU [E], S_NA-RO [O], in that order. 6. Simple consonant qualified by YA-B_TAGS_ alone. 7. YA-B_TAGS_ words in all orders down to 5, inclusive. 8. Simple consonant qualified by RA-B_TAGS_ alone. 9. RA-B@TAGS@ words in all orders down to 5, inclusive. 10. Simple consonant qualified by HA-B_TAGS_ alone. 11. HA-B_TAGS_ words in all orders down to 5, inclusive. 12. Simple consonant qualified by LA-B_TAGS_ alone. 13. LA-B_TAGS_ words in all orders down to 5, inclusive. 14. Foreign or other special words formed with the Reversed letters. 15. Words with the Prefixes GA, DA, BA, MA, and H_A in that sequence, and each sequence arranged according to the foregoing orders. 16. Consonant qualified by RA-M_GO. 17. RA-M_GO words according to foregoing orders. 18. Consonant qualified by LA-M_GO. 19. LA-M_GO words according to foregoing orders. 20. Consonant qualified by SA-M_GO. 21. SA-M_GO words according to foregoing orders. 22. No words with LA, as an Initial, and having any Superposed letter like RA or SA, need be looked for under LA. They will only be found under the head of the Superposed letter. Words in LA, however, are found with qualifying vowel-signs, and such words may be looked up under LA. N.B. Csoma de Ko"ro"s's Dictionary is differently arranged." [This is the arrangement of Das' Dictionary, however.] First syllables of the letter KA in Das' dictionary to illustrate sort order. In traditional transliteration. I have tried to be complete but cannot guarantee that this list is free of errors, either mine or Das'. ka kak kako kag kan@ kad_ kan kan* kab kam kah_u kar kal ka/ kwa ks*a ks*e ki kin@ kim kih_u kil ki/ ki/n@ ku kug kun@ kun~ kun kur kul ke keh_u keg ken@ ker kel kai ko kog kon@ kod_ kon kob kom kor kol_ kos_ kya kyag kyan@ kyar kyal_ kyi kyig kyin@ kyin kyir kyis_ kyu kyur kye kyo kyog kyon@ kyom kyor kyol kra krag kran@ krad_ kran krab kram kri krig krin@ krin kris* kru krun@ krum krums_ kre kro krog kron@ kron k_la k_lag k_lags_ k_lad_ k_lan k_lam k_lal_ k_las_ k_lin@ k_lu k_lun@ k_lun@s_ k_lub k_lus_ k_log k_lon@ k_lon@s_ ks\a d_kag d_kan d_kah_ d_kar d_ku d_kon d_kor d_kol_ d_kos_ d_kyar d_kyil d_kyu d_kyud_ d_kyus_ d_kyel_ d_kyor d_kram d_kri d_krig d_krigs_ d_kris_ d_kru d_krug d_krugs_ d_krum d_kre d_krog d_krogs_ d_kron@ d_krol b_kag b_kan@ b_kad_ b_kan b_kab b_kam b_kah_ b_kah_i b_kar b_kal_ b_kas_ b_ku b_kug b_kum b_kur b_kog b_kon@ b_kod_ b_kon b_kor b_kol b_kyal_ b_kyig b_kye b_kyed_ b_kyon b_kra b_krag b_krab b_kram b_kral_ b_kras_ b_kri b_krid_ b_kris_ b_kru b_krug b_krus_ b_kre b_kren b_kres_ b_kron@s_ b_krol b_kros_ b_k_lags_ r_ka r_kan@ r_kan r_kam r_ku r_kur r_kun r_kub r_ke r_ked_ r_ko r_kog r_kon@ r_kod_ r_kon b_r_kam b_r_kus_ b_r_ko b_r_kos_ r_kyag r_kyan@ r_kyan r_kyal_ r_kyen r_kyon@ b_r_kyan@ b_r_kyan@s_ l_kug l_kugs_ l_kog l_kob l_kol s_ka s_kag s_kan@ s_kad_ s_kan s_kab s_kabs_ s_kam s_kams_ s_kar s_kal_ s_kas_ s_ku s_kugs_ s_kun@ s_kun@s_ s_kud_ s_kun s_kub s_kum s_kur s_kul_ s_ke s_keg s_ken@ s_ked_ s_kem s_kems_ s_ker s_ko s_kogs_ s_kon@ s_kon s_kobs_ s_kom s_koms_ s_kor s_kol s_kos_ s_kya s_kyag s_kyan@ s_kyan@s_ s_kyabs_ s_kyar s_kyal_ s_kyas_ s_kyi s_kyig s_kyin@ s_kyin@s_ s_kyid_ s_kyin s_kyibs_ s_kyim s_kyil s_kyu s_kyug s_kyus_ s_kyun@ s_kyud_ s_kyur s_kyus_ s_kye s_kyeg s_kyegs_ s_kyen@ s_kyed_ s_kyen s_kyem s_kyems_ s_kyer s_kyel_ s_kyes_ s_kyo s_kyog s_kyogs_ s_kyon@ s_kyod_ s_kyon s_kyob s_kyobs_ s_kyom s_kyor s_kyol s_kyos_ s_kra s_krah_i s_krag s_kran@ s_kran@s_ s_kran s_krab s_kras_ s_kri s_kru s_krud_ s_krun s_krum s_kro s_krog s_krod_ b_s_ka b_s_kan@ b_s_kan@s_ b_s_kam b_s_kams_ b_s_kal b_s_ku b_s_kun@s_ b_s_kum b_s_kur b_s_kul b_s_kus_ b_s_kon b_s_kor b_s_kos_ b_s_kyan@ b_s_kyan@s_ b_s_kyabs_ b_s_kyams_ b_s_kyar b_s_kyur b_s_kyed_ b_s_kyod_ b_s_krad_ b_s_krun ========== Michael Everson School of Architecture, UCD; Richview, Clonskeagh; Dublin 14; E/ire Phone: +353 1 706-2745 Fax: +353 1 283-8908 Home: +353 1 478-2597 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 14:17:08 EDT From: clarkd@sfu.ca Subject: Re: The Buddha names desire .... s ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hello, Nobuyoshi Yamabe, thank you for your postings. Actually, I've been enjoying the discussion on rosaries very much. What I wanted to know about the 108 desires was the names of those desires and their descriptions and the location of their discussion in Buddhist literature. Perhaps you could give me a more general idea of literature on desires, if my informants are wrong about there being 108 named somewhere...? Thanks for your help. I'll post this to the list hoping someone else may also have ideas on this subject they'd be willing to share Susan clarkd@sfu.ca > > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > Hi, Susan. Thank you for your response. As you have probably noticed, > my posting this time was a response to Marshall Davis, who asked about > Buddhist and Christian rosaries. Did you see my previous posting? > Could you tell me what kind of information on desires you are looking > for? > > Nobuyoshi Yamabe (yamnoba@yalevm) > ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 16 Sep 1993 to 17 Sep 1993 *************************************************** From: sadhu@pslvax.UUCP (Sadhunathan Nadesan) Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern Subject: How to Win an Argument with a Meat Eater Date: 19 Sep 1993 15:57:07 -0700 Approved: nabil@world.net (Aaron Nabil) "How to Win an Argument with a Meat Eater" Here now is The Hindu Virtue of Vegetarianism, with facts on the dangers of meat-eating, The "new four food groups," Excerpts from Food for the Spirit, and quotations from Scripture Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami This booklet was created in response to requests from readers of Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami's Publisher's Desk column in Hinduism Today. Permission is hereby given to photocopy and distribute it freely in your community. For a catalog of Himalayan Academy Publications, write to 1819 Second Street, Concord, California, 94519 USA. Phone: (510) 827-0237; Fax: (510) 827-0137. Published by Himalayan Academy California * Hawaii printed in USA I. Must We Kill in order to Live? Vegetarianism, known in SanskRit as Shakahara, was for thousands of years a principle of health and environmental ethics throughout India. Though Muslim and Christian colonization radically undermined and eroded this ideal, it remains to this day a cardinal ethic of Hindu thought and practice. A subtle sense of guilt persists among Hindus who eat meat, and there exists an ongoing controversy on this issue on which we hope this humble booklet will shed some light. For India's ancient thinkers, life is seen as the very stuff of the Divine, an emanation of the Source and part of a cosmic continuum. They further hold that each life form, even water and trees, possesses consciousness and energy. Nonviolence, ahimsa, the primary basis of vegetarianism, has long been central to the religious traditions of India-especially Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. Religion in India has consistently upheld the sanctity of life, whether human, animal or, in the case of the Jains, elemental. The Sanskrit for vegetarianism is Shakahara, and one following a vegetarian diet is a shakahari. The term for meat-eating is mansahara, and the meat-eater is called mansahari. Ahara means "to consume, or eat," shaka means "vegetable," and mansa means "meat or flesh." The very word mansa, "meat," conveys a deep appreciation of life's sacredness and an understanding of the law of karma by which the consequence of each action returns to the doer. As explained in the 2,000-year-old Manu Dharma Shastra, 5.55, "The learned declare that the meaning of mansa (flesh) is, 'he (sa) will eat me (mam) in the other world whose flesh I eat here.' " There developed early in India an unparalleled concern for harmony among life forms, and this led to a common ethos based on noninjuriousness and a minimal consumption of natural resources-in other words, to compassion and simplicity. If homo sapiens is to survive his present predicament, he will have to rediscover these two primary ethical virtues. "Is vegetarianism integral to noninjury?" In my book, Dancing with Siva, this question is addressed as follows: "Hindus teach vegetarianism as a way to live with a minimum of hurt to other beings, for to consume meat, fish, fowl or eggs is to participate indirectly in acts of cruelty and violence against the animal kingdom. The abhorrence of injury and killing of any kind leads quite naturally to a vegetarian diet, shakahara. The meat-eater's desire for meat drives another to kill and provide that meat. The act of the butcher begins with the desire of the consumer. Meat-eating contributes to a mentality of violence, for with the chemically complex meat ingested, one absorbs the slaughtered creature's fear, pain and terror. These qualities are nourished within the meat-eater, perpetuating the cycle of cruelty and confusion. When the individual's consciousness lifts and expands, he will abhor violence and not be able to even digest the meat, fish, fowl and eggs he was formerly consuming. India's greatest saints have confirmed that one cannot eat meat and live a peaceful, harmonious life. Man's appetite for meat inflicts devastating harm on the earth itself, stripping its precious forests to make way for pastures. The Tirukural candidly states, 'How can he practice true compassion who eats the flesh of an animal to fatten his own flesh? Greater than a thousand ghee offerings consumed in sacrificial fires is not to sacrifice and consume any living creature.' " Amazingly, I have heard people define vegetarian as a diet which excludes the meat of animals but does permit fish and eggs. But what really is vegetarianism? Vegetarian foods include grains, fruits, vegetables, legumes and dairy products. Natural, fresh foods, locally grown without insecticides or chemical fertilizers are preferred. A vegetarian diet does not include meat, fish, fowl or eggs. For good health, even certain vegetarian foods are minimized: frozen and canned foods, highly processed foods, such as white rice, white sugar and white flour; and "junk" foods and beverages-those with abundant chemical additives, such as artificial sweeteners, colorings, flavorings and preservatives. In my forty years of ministry it has become quite evident that vegetarian families have far fewer problems than those who are not vegetarian. If children are raised as vegetarians, every day they are exposed to nonviolence as a principle of peace and compassion. Every day they are growing up they are remembering and being reminded to not kill. They won't even kill another creature to eat, to feed themselves. And if they won't kill another creature to feed themselves, they will be much less likely to do acts of violence against people. Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami II. Five Reasons to Be a Vegetarian In the past fifty years millions of meat-eaters have made the personal decision to stop eating the flesh of other creatures. There are five major motivations for such a decision. 1) The DHARMIC/SCRIPTURAL LAW reason Ahimsa, the law of noninjury, is the Hindu's first duty in fulfillment of his religious obligations to God and God's creation as defined by Vedic scripture. 2) The KARMIC CONSEQUENCES reason All of our actions including our choice of food have karmic consequences. By involving oneself in the cycle of inflicting injury, pain and death, even indirectly by eating other creatures, one must in the future experience in equal measure the suffering caused. 3) the SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS reason Food is the source of the body's chemistry, and what we ingest affects our consciousness, emotions and experiential patterns. If one wants to live in higher consciousness, in peace and happiness and love for all creatures, then he cannot eat meat, fish, shellfish, fowl or eggs. By ingesting the grosser chemistries of animal foods, one introduces into the body and mind anger, jealousy, fear, anxiety, suspicion and a terrible fear of death, all of which are locked into the flesh of butchered creatures. For these reasons, shakaharis live in higher consciousness and mansaharis abide in lower consciousness. 4) The HEALTH REASON Medical studies prove that a vegetarian diet is easier to digest, provides a wider range of nutrients and imposes fewer burdens and impurities on the body. Vegetarians are less susceptible to all the major diseases that afflict contemporary humanity, and thus live longer, healthier, more productive lives. They have fewer physical complaints, less frequent visits to the doctor, fewer dental problems and smaller medical bills. Their immune system is stronger, their bodies are purer, more refined and skin more beautiful. 5) The ECOLOGICAL REASON Planet earth is suffering. In large measure, the escalating loss of species, destruction of ancient rainforests to create pasture lands for livestock, loss of topsoils and the consequent increase of water impurities and air pollution have all been traced to the single fact of meat in the human diet. No single decision that we can make as individuals or as a race can have such a dramatic effect on the improvement of our planetary ecology as the decision to not eat meat. Many seeking to save the planet for future generations have made this decision for this reason and this reason alone. III. How to Win an Argument with a Meat-Eater While their numbers are rapidly growing, vegetarians are still a minority, and it is not unusual to be confronted with a meat-eater who not only protects his own right to eat flesh, but argues aggressively that vegetarians should join him in his carnivorous diet. Carnivores may regard nonmeat-eaters as a strange lot who munch on "rabbit food," and whose diet doesn't have the substance to make them strong, productive human beings. The following presentation is designed to turn the tables on such discussions by showing the devastating effects of meat-eating both on individuals and on our planet. It is based on a richly informative poster entitled, "How to win an argument with a meat-eater," published by Earthsave, an organization based in Felton, California, giving facts from Pulitzer Prize nominee John Robbins' book Diet for a New America. Below are eight separate arguments against meat-eating and in favor of a vegetarian diet. 1. The hunger Argument against meat-eating Much of the world's massive hunger problems could be solved by the reduction or elimination of meat-eating. The reasons: 1) livestock pasture needs cut drastically into land which could otherwise be used to grow food; 2) vast quantities of food which could feed humans is fed to livestock raised to produce meat. This year alone, twenty million people worldwide will die as a result of malnutrition. One child dies of malnutrition every 2.3 seconds. One hundred million people could be adequately fed using the land freed if Americans reduced their intake of meat by a mere 10%. Twenty percent of the corn grown in the U.S. is eaten by people. Eighty percent of the corn and 95% of the oats grown in the U.S. is eaten by livestock. The percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock is calculated by experts as 90%. One acre of land can produce 40,000 pounds of potatoes, or 250 pounds of beef. Fifty-six percent of all U.S. farmland is devoted to beef production, and to produce each pound of beef requires 16 pounds of edible grain and soybeans, which could be used to feed the hungry. 2. The Environmental Argument against meat-eating Many of the world's massive environmental problems could be solved by the reduction or elimination of meat-eating, including global warming, loss of topsoil, loss of rainforests and species extinction. The temperature of the earth is rising. This global warming, known as "the greenhouse effect," results primarily from carbon dioxide emissions from burning fossil fuels, such as oil and natural gas. Three times more fossil fuels must be burned to produce a meat-centered diet than for a meat-free diet. If people stopped eating meat, the threat of higher world temperatures would be vastly diminished. Trees, and especially the old-growth forests, are essential to the survival of the planet. Their destruction is a major cause of global warming and top soil loss. Both of these effects lead to diminished food production. Meat-eating is the number one driving force for the destruction of these forests. Two-hundred and sixty million acres of U.S. forestland has been cleared for cropland to produce the meat-centered diet. Fifty-five square feet of tropical rainforest is consumed to produce every quarter-pound of rainforest beef. An alarming 75% of all U.S. topsoil has been lost to date. Eighty-five percent of this loss is directly related to livestock raising. Another devastating result of deforestation is the loss of plant and animal species. Each year 1,000 species are eliminated due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses. The rate is growing yearly. To keep up with U.S. consumption, 300 million pounds of meat are imported annually from Central and South America. This economic incentive impels these nations to cut down their forests to make more pastureland. The short-term gain ignores the long-term, irreparable harm to the earth's ecosystem. In effect these countries are being drained of their resources to put meat on the table of Americans while 75% of all Central American children under the age of five are undernourished. 3. The Cancer argument against meat-eating Those who eat flesh are far more likely to contract cancer than those following a vegetarian diet. The risk of contracting breast cancer is 3.8 times greater for women who eat meat daily compared to less than once a week; 2.8 times greater for women who eat eggs daily compared to once a week; and 3.25 greater for women who eat butter and cheese 2 to 4 times a week as compared to once a week. The risk of fatal ovarian cancer is three times greater for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week as compared with less than once a week. The risk of fatal prostate cancer is 3.6 times greater for men who consume meat, cheese, eggs and milk daily as compared with sparingly or not at all. The cholesterol argument against meat-eating Here are facts showing that: 1) U.S. physicians are not sufficiently trained in the importance of the relation of diet to health; 2) meat-eaters ingest excessive amounts of cholesterol, making them dangerously susceptible to heart attacks. It is strange, but true that U.S. physicians are as a rule ill-educated in the single most important factor of health, namely diet and nutrition. Of the 125 medical schools in the U.S., only 30 require their students to take a course in nutrition. The average nutrition training received by the average U.S. physician during four years in school is only 2.5 hours. Thus doctors in the U.S. are ill-equipped to advise their patients in minimizing foods, such as meat, that contain excessive amounts of cholesterol and are known causes of heart attack. Heart attack is the most common cause of death in the U.S., killing one person every 45 seconds. The male meat-eater's risk of death from heart attack is 50%. The risk to men who eats no meat is 15%. Reducing one's consumption of meat, dairy and eggs by 10% reduces the risk of heart attack by 10%. Completely eliminating these products from one's diet reduces the risk of heart attack by 90%. The average cholesterol consumption of a meat-centered diet is 210 milligrams per day. The chance of dying from heart disease if you are male and your blood cholesterol is 210 milligrams daily is greater than 50%. 5. The natural resources argument against meat-eating The world's natural resources are being rapidly depleted as a result of meat-eating. Raising livestock for their meat is a very inefficient way of generating food. Pound for pound, far more resources must be expended to produce meat than to produce grains, fruits and vegetables. For example, more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S. is consumed in livestock production. The amount of water used in production of the average cow is sufficient to float a destroyer (a large naval ship). While 25 gallons of water are needed to produce a pound of wheat, 5,000 gallons are needed to produce a pound of California beef. That same 5,000 gallons of water can produce 200 pounds of wheat. If this water cost were not subsidized by the government, the cheapest hamburger meat would cost more than $35 per pound. Meat-eating is devouring oil reserves at an alarming rate. It takes nearly 78 calories of fossil fuel (oil, natural gas, etc.) energy to produce one calory of beef protein and only 2 calories of fossil fuel energy to produce one calory of soybean. If every human ate a meat-centered diet, the world's known oil reserves would last a mere 13 years. They would last 260 years if humans stopped eating meat altogether. That is 20 times longer, giving humanity ample time to develop alternative energy sources. Thirty-three percent of all raw materials (base products of farming, forestry and mining, including fossil fuels) consumed by the U.S. are devoted to the production of livestock, as compared with 2% to produce a complete vegetarian diet. 6. The antibiotic argument against meat-eating Here are facts showing the dangers of eating meat because of the large amounts of antibiotics fed to livestock to control staphylococci (commonly called staph infections), which are becoming immune to these drugs at an alarming rate. The animals that are being raised for meat in the United States are diseased. The livestock industry attempts to control this disease by feeding the animals antibiotics. Huge quantities of drugs go for this purpose. Of all antibiotics used in the U.S., 55% are fed to livestock. But this is only partially effective because the bacteria that cause disease are becoming immune to the antibiotics. The percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin, for example, has grown from 13% in 1960 to 91% in 1988. These antibiotics and-or the bacteria they are intended to destroy reside in the meat that goes to market. It is not healthy for humans to consume this meat. The response of the European Economic Community to the routine feeding of antibiotics to U.S. livestock was to ban the importation of U.S. meat. European buyers do not want to expose consumers to this serious health hazard. By comparison, U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries gave their full and complete support to the routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock, turning a blind eye to the threat of disease to the consumer. 8. The pesticide argument against meat-eating Unknown to most meat-eaters, U.S.-produced meat contains dangerously high quantities of deadly pesticides. The common belief is that the U.S. Department of Agriculture protects consumers' health through regular and thorough meat inspection. In reality, fewer than one out of every 250,000 slaughtered animals is tested for toxic chemical residues. That these chemicals are indeed ingested by the meat-eater is proven by the following facts: A. Ninety-nine percent of U.S. mother's milk contains significant levels of DDT. In stark contrast, only 8% of U.S. vegetarian mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT. This shows that the primary source of DDT is the meat ingested by the mothers. B. Contamination of breast milk due to chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides in animal products found in meat-eating mothers versus nonmeat-eating mothers is 35 times higher. C. The amount of the pesticide Dieldrin ingested by the average breast-fed American infant is 9 times the permissible level. 9. The ethical argument against meat-eating Many of those who have adopted a vegetarian diet have done so because of the ethical argument, either from reading about or personally experiencing what goes on daily at any one of the thousands of slaughterhouses in the U.S. and other countries, where animals suffer the cruel process of forced confinement, manipulation and violent death. Their pain and terror is beyond calculation. The slaughterhouse is the final stop for animals raised for their flesh. These ghastly places, while little known to most meat-eaters, process enormous numbers of animals each years. In the U.S. alone, 660,000 animals are killed for meat every hour. A surprising quantity of meat is consumed by the meat-eater. The average percapita consumption of meat in the U.S., Canada and Australia is 200 pounds per year! The average American consumes in a 72-year lifetime approximately 11 cattle, 3 lambs and sheep, 23 hogs, 45 turkeys, 1,100 chickens and 862 pounds of fish! Bon appetite! People who come in contact with slaughterhouses cannot help but be affected by what they see and hear. Those living nearby must daily experience the screams of terror and anger of the animals led to slaughter. Those working inside must also see and participate in the crimes of mayhem and murder. Most who choose this line of work are not on the job for long. Of all occupations in the U.S., slaughterhouse worker has the highest turnover rate. It also has the highest rate of on-the-job injury. IV. Humans Have neither Fangs nor Claws A ninth and most compelling argument against meat-eating is that humans are physiologically not suited for a carnivorous diet. The book Food for the Spirit, Vegetarianism in the World Religions, summarizes this point of view as follows. "Many nutritionists, biologists and physiologists offer convincing evidence that humans are in fact not meant to eat flesh._" Here are seven facts in support of this view: "Physiologically, people are more akin to plant-eaters, foragers and grazers, such as monkeys, elephants and cows, than to carnivora such as dogs, tigers and leopards. "For example, carnivora do not sweat through their skin; body heat is controlled by rapid breathing and extrusion of the tongue. Vegetarian animals, on the other hand, have sweat pores for heat control and the elimination of impurities. "Carnivora have long teeth and claws for holding and killing prey; vegetarian animals have short teeth and no claws. "The saliva of carnivora contains no ptyalin and cannot predigest starches; that of vegetarian animals contains ptyalin for the predigestion of starches. "Flesh-eating animals secrete large quantities of hydrochloric acid to help dissolve bones; vegetarian animals secrete little hydrochloric acid. "The jaws of carnivora only open in an up and down motion; those of vegetarian animals also move sideways for additional kinds of chewing. "Carnivora must lap liquids (like a cat); vegetarian animals take liquids in by suction through the teeth. "There are many such comparisons, and in each case humans fit the vegetarian physiognomy. From a strictly physiological perspective, then, there are strong arguments that humans are not suited to a fleshy diet." V. The Health Benefits of Vegetarianism It was only recently that smoking only recently became recognized as a health and environmental hazard. As a result of research and education on a habit once believed to be not only harmless but stylish, most major U.S. cities have banned smoking of cigarettes, cigars or pipes in all public places. Smoking has also been outlawed in government offices and completely eliminated from all domestic U.S. air flights. Now, another, even more devastaing problem is under scrutiny. Its threat to health and the environment is being realized based on overwhelming evidence amassed by recognized authorities over the past fifty years. Recently a group of eminent doctors called the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM), themselves members of the American Medical Association (AMA), have gathered to change the U.S. consciousness on human nutrition, particularly among the medical community. The PCRM is a nonprofit organization based in Washington, D.C., consisting of doctors and laypersons working together for compassionate and effective medical practice, research and health promotion. Founded in 1985, the PCRM is supported by over 3,000 physicians and 50,000 laypersons. PCRM president Newal D. Barnard, M.D., is a popular speaker and the author of The Power of Your Plate. As stated by the PCRM in their 1991 literature, "A vegetarian diet has been advocated by everyone from philosophers, such as Plato and Nietzsche, to political leaders, such as Benjamin Franklin and Gandhi, to modern pop icons such as Paul McCartney and Bob Marley. Science is also on the side of vegetarian foods. A multitude of studies have proven the health benefits of a vegetarian diet to be remarkable. "Vegetarian is defined as avoiding all animal flesh, including fish and poultry. Vegetarians who avoid flesh, but do eat animal products such as cheese, milk and eggs are ovo-lacto-vegetarians (ovo = egg; lacto = milk, cheese, etc.). The ranks of those who eschew all animal products are rapidly growing; these people are referred to as pure vegetarians or vegans (vee'guns). Scientific research shows that ovo-lacto-vegetarians are healthier than meat-eaters, and vegans are healthier than ovo-lacto-vegetarians." It should be noted that the Indian Hindu tradition has always been lacto-vegetarian, permitting the consumption of milk products. The PCRM literature lists a host of health benefits of a vegetarian diet, including the following: Preventing cancer: "Numerous epidemiological and clinical studies have shown that vegetarians are nearly 50% less likely to die from cancer than nonvegetarians." Preventing heart disease and lowering blood pressure. Preventing and reversing diabetes. Preventing and alleviating gallstones, kidney stones and osteoporosis. Preventing and alleviating asthma. VI. The New Four Food Groups In 1991 the Physicians Committe for Responsible Medicine submitted a proprosal to change the official "four food groups" which have been promoted by U.S. nutritionists in the U.S. for the past 35 years. Their proposal reflects the fact that the long-held belief in meat as an essential dietary element is being displaced with new findings on the harmful effects of a meat-centered diet. The PCRM Update, May-June 1991, explains, "On April 8, 1991, PCRM unveiled a proposal to replace the Four Basic Food Groups. The Four Food Groups have been part of U.S. government recommendations since 1956, but promote dietary habits which are largely responsible for the epidemics of heart disease, cancer, stroke and other serious illnesses in this country._The old four groups were meat, dairy, grains and fruits/vegetables. The 'New Four Food Groups' are grains, legumes, vegetables and fruits. Meat and dairy will lose their food group status [by this proposal]. The 'New Four Food Groups' represents a nutrition plan that is based on healthy, fiber-rich plant foods rather than the former emphasis on cholesterol-and-fat-laden foods. 'The meat and dairy groups were the principal sources of cholesterol and saturated fat, which is the biggest culprit in raising blood cholesterol,' says PCRM Nutritionist Virginia Messina, M.P.H., R.D. 'These foods are simply not necessary in the human diet.' " PCRM poster offers the following description of the four new food groups. 1. Whole grains includes breads, pastas, rice, corn and all other grains. Note the emphasis on whole grains rather than refined grains. Build each of your meals around a hearty grain dish-grains are rich in fiber and other complex carbohydrates, as well as protein, B vitamins and zinc. 2. Vegetables are packed with nutrients; they provide vitamin C, beta-carotene, riboflavin and other vitamins, iron, calcium and fiber. Dark green, leafy vegetables such as broccoli, collards, kale, mustard and turnip greens, chicory or bok choy are especially good sources of these important nutrients. Dark yellow and orange vegetables such as carrots, winter squash, sweet potatoes and pumpkin provide extra beta-carotene. Include generous portions of a variety of vegetables in your diet. 3. Legumes, which is another name for beans, peas and lentils, are all good sources of fiber, protein, iron, calcium, zinc and B vitamins. This group also includes chickpeas, baked and refried beans, soy milk, tofu, tempeh and texturized vegetable protein. 4. fruitS are rich in fiber, vitamin C and beta-carotene. Be sure to include at least one serving each day of fruits that are high in vitamin C-citrus fruits, melons and strawberries are all good choices. Choose whole fruit over fruit juices, which don't contain as much healthy fiber. VII. Common Dietary Concerns Those considering a vegetarian diet generally worry about getting enough nutrients, since the belief that meat is a necessary part of keeping strong and healthy is still extremely widespread. Armed with decades of nutritional research data, the PCRM addresses this issue head-on: "The fact is, it is very easy to have a well-balanced diet with vegetarian foods. Vegetarian foods provide plenty of protein. Careful combining of foods is not necessary. Any normal variety of plant foods provides more than enough protein for the body's needs. Although there is somewhat less protein in a vegetarian diet than a meat-eater's diet, this actually an advantage. Excess protein has been linked to kidney stones, osteoporosis, and possibly heart disease and some cancers. A diet focused on beans, whole grains and vegetables contains adequate amounts of protein without the 'overdose' most meat-eaters get." Other concerns are allayed as follows: "Calcium is easy to find in a vegetarian diet. Many dark, green leafy vegetables and beans are loaded with calcium, and some orange juices and cereals are calcium-fortified. Iron is plentiful in whole grains, beans and fruits." Vitamin B12: There is a misconception that without eating meat one cannot obtain sufficient v. B12, which is an essential nutrient. This simply not true. The PCRM advises: "Although cases of B12 deficiency are very uncommon, it is important to make sure that one has a reliable source of the vitamin. Good sources include all common multiple vitamins (including vegetarian vitamins), fortified cereals and fortified soy milk." "During pregnancy one's nutritional needs increase. The American Dietetic Association has found vegan diets adequate for fulfilling nutritional needs during pregnancy, but pregnant women and nursing mothers should supplement their diets with vitamins B12 and D. "vegetarian children also have high nutritional needs, but these, too, are met within a vegetarian diet. A vegetarian menu is 'life-extending.' As young children, vegetarians may grow more gradually, reach puberty somewhat later, and live substantially longer than do meat-eaters. Do be sure to include a reliable source of vitamin B12." Besides the fortified cereals and soymilk mentioned above vitamin B12 sources that are widely available are multiple vitamins, brewers yeast and other potent dietary supplements. Those interested in supporting or learning more about the work of the PCRM should write to PCRM, P.O. Box 6322, Washington, D.C., 20015. VIII. Vegetarianism in Hinduism Food for the Spirit, Vegetarianism and the World Religions, observes, "Despite popular knowledge of meat-eating's adverse effects, the nonvegetarian diet became increasingly widespread among Hindus after the two major invasions by foreign powers, first the Muslims and later the British. With them came the desire to be 'civilized,' to eat as did the saheeb. Those actually trained in Vedic knowledge, however, never adopted a meat-oriented diet, and the pious Hindu still observes vegetarian principles as a matter of religious duty. "That vegetarianism has always been widespread in India is clear from the earliest Vedic texts. This was observed by the ancient traveler Megasthenes and also by Fa-hsien, a Chinese Buddhist monk who, in the fifth century, traveled to India in order to obtain authentic copies of the scriptures. "These scriptures unambiguously support the meatless way of life. In the Mahabharata, for instance, the great warrior Bhishma explains to Yudhishtira, eldest of the Pandava princes, that the meat of animals is like the flesh of one's own son, and that the foolish person who eats meat must be considered the vilest of human beings [Anu. 114.11]. The eating of 'dirty' food, it warns, is not as terrible as the eating of flesh [Shanti. 141.88] (it must be remembered that the brahmanas of ancient India exalted cleanliness to a divine principle). "Similarly, the Manusmriti declares that one should 'refrain from eating all kinds of meat,' for such eating involves killing and leads to karmic bondage (bandha) [5.49]. Elsewhere in the Vedic literature, the last of the great Vedic kings, Maharaja Parikshit, is quoted as saying that 'only the animal-killer cannot relish the message of the Absolute Truth [Shrimad Bhagavatam 10.1.4].' " IX. Scriptures Against Killing and Meat-Eating Hindu scripture speaks clearly and forcefully on nonkilling and vegetarianism. In the ancient Rig Veda, we read: "O vegetable, be succulent, wholesome, strengthening; and thus, body, be fully grown." The Yajur Veda summarily dictates: "Do not injure the beings living on the earth, in the air and in the water." The beautiful Tirukural, a widely-read 2,000-year-old masterpiece of ethics, speaks of conscience: "When a man realizes that meat is the butchered flesh of another creature, he must abstain from eating it." The Manu Samhita advises: "Having well considered the origin of flesh and the cruelty of fettering and slaying of corporeal beings, let one entirely abstain from eating flesh." In the yoga-infused verses of the Tirumantiram, warning is given of how meat-eating holds the mind in gross, adharmic states: "The ignoble ones who eat flesh, death's agents bind them fast and push them quick into the fiery jaws of hell (Naraka, lower consciousness)." The roots of noninjury, nonkilling and nonconsumption of meat are found in the Vedas, agamas, Upanishads, Dharma Shastras, Tirumurai, Yoga Sutras and dozens of other sacred texts of Hinduism. Here is a select collection. Vedas and agamas, Hinduism's Revealed Scriptures LET YOUR AIMS BE COMMON, and your hearts be of one accord, and all of you be of one mind, so you may live well together. Rig Veda Samhita 10.191 Protect both our species, two-legged and four-legged. Both food and water for their needs supply. May they with us increase in stature and strength. Save us from hurt all our days, O Powers! Rig Veda Samhita 10.37.11. VE, 319 One who partakes of human flesh, the flesh of a horse or of another animal, and deprives others of milk by slaughtering cows, O King, if such a fiend does not desist by other means, then you should not hesitate to cut off his head. Rig Veda Samhita, 10.87.16, FS 90 Peaceful be the earth, peaceful the ether, peaceful heaven, peaceful the waters, peaceful the herbs, peaceful the trees. May all Gods bring me peace. May there be peace through these invocations of peace. With these invocations of peace which appease everything, I render peaceful whatever here is terrible, whatever here is cruel, whatever here is sinful. Let it become auspicious, let everything be beneficial to us. Atharva Veda Samhita 10. 191. 4 Those noble souls who practice meditation and other yogic ways, who are ever careful about all beings, who protect all animals, are the ones who are actually serious about spiritual practices. Atharva Veda Samhita 19.48.5. FS, 90 If we have injured space, the earth or heaven, or if we have offended mother or father, from that may Agni, fire of the house, absolve us and guide us safely to the world of goodness. Atharva Veda Samhita 6.120.1. VE, 636 You must not use your God-given body for killing God's creatures, whether they are human, animal or whatever. Yajur Veda Samhita 12.32. FS, 90 May all beings look at me with a friendly eye. May I do likewise, and may we all look on each other with the eyes of a friend. Yajur Veda 36.18. Nonviolence is all the offerings. Renunciation is the priestly honorarium. The final purification is death. Thus all the Divinities are established in this body. Krishna Yajur Veda, Prana Upanishad 46-8. VE, 413-14 To the heavens be peace, to the sky and the earth; to the waters be peace, to plants and all trees; to the Gods be peace, to Brahman be peace, to all men be peace, again and again-peace also to me! O earthen vessel, strengthen me. May all beings regard me with friendly eyes! May I look upon all creatures with friendly eyes! With a friend's eye may we regard each other! Shukla Yajur Veda Samhita 36.17-18. VE, 306; 342 No pain should be caused to any created being or thing. Devikalottara agama, JAV 69-79. RM, 116 The Mahabharata and Bhagavad Gita, Epic History The very name of the cows is aghnya, indicating that they should never be slaughtered. Who, then could slay them? Surely, one who kills a cow or a bull commits the most heinous crime. Mahabharata, Shantiparva 262.47. FS,pg. 94 The purchaser of flesh performs himsa (violence) by his wealth; he who eats flesh does so by enjoying its taste; the killer does himsa by actually tying and killing the animal. Thus, there are three forms of killing: he who brings flesh or sends for it, he who cuts off the limbs of an animal, and he who purchases, sells or cooks flesh and eats it -all of these are to be considered meat-eaters. Mahabharata, Anu. 115.40. FS, pg 90 He who desires to augment his own flesh by eating the flesh of other creatures lives in misery in whatever species he may take his birth. Mahabharata, Anu. 115.47. FS, pg. 90 One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one's own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Yielding to desire and acting differently, one becomes guilty of adharma. Mahabharata 18.113.8. Those high-souled persons who desire beauty, faultlessness of limbs, long life, understanding, mental and physical strength and memory should abstain from acts of injury. Mahabharata 18.115.8. Ahimsa is the highest dharma. Ahimsa is the best tapas. Ahimsa is the greatest gift. Ahimsa is the highest self-control. Ahimsa is the highest sacrifice. Ahimsa is the highest power. Ahimsa is the highest friend. Ahimsa is the highest truth. Ahimsa is the highest teaching. Mahabharata 18.116.37-41. He who sees that the Lord of all is ever the same in all that is-immortal in the field of mortality-he sees the truth. And when a man sees that the God in himself is the same God in all that is, he hurts not himself by hurting others. Then he goes, indeed, to the highest path. Bhagavad Gita 13. 27-28. BgM, pg. 101 Nonviolence, truth, freedom from anger, renunciation, serenity, aversion to fault-finding, sympathy for all beings, peace from greedy cravings, gentleness, modesty, steadiness, energy, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, a good will, freedom from pride-these belong to a man who is born for heaven. Bhagavad Gita 16.2-3. BGM, pg. 109 Tirumantiram and other Scriptures Many are the lovely flowers of worship offered to the Guru, but none lovelier than non-killing. Respect for life is the highest worship, the bright lamp, the sweet garland and unwavering devotion. Tirumantiram 197 SPIRITUAL MERIT and sin are our own making. The killer of other lives is an outcast. Match your words with your conduct. Steal not, kill not, indulge not in self-praise, condemn not others to their face. Lingayat Vachanas AHIMSA IS NOT CAUSING pain to any living being at any time through the actions of one's mind, speech or body. Sandilya UpanishadWhen mindstuff is firmly based in waves of ahimsa, all living beings cease their enmity in the presence of such a person. Yoga Sutras 2.35. YP, pg. 205 Those who are ignorant of real dharma and, though wicked and haughty, account themselves virtuous, kill animals without any feeling of remorse or fear of punishment. Further, in their next lives, such sinful persons will be eaten by the same creatures they have killed in this world. Shrimad Bhagavatam 11.5.4. FS, pg, 90 The Tirukural, Preeminent Ethical Scripture Perhaps nowhere is the principle of nonmeat-eating so fully and eloquently expressed as in the Tirukural, written in the Tamil language by a simple weaver saint in a village near Madras over 2,000 years ago. Considered the world's greatest ethical scripture, it is sworn on in South Indian courts of law. It is the principle of the pure in heart never to injure others, even when they themselves have been hatefully injured. What is virtuous conduct? It is never destroying life, for killing leads to every other sin. 312; 321, TW Harming others, even enemies who harmed you unprovoked, assures incessant sorrow. The supreme principle is this: never knowingly harm any one at any time in any way. 313; 317, TW What is the good way? It is the path that reflects on how it may avoid killing any living creature. Refrain from taking precious life from any living being, even to save your own life. 324; 327, TW How can he practice true compassion Who eats the flesh of an animal to fatten his own flesh? TK 251, TW Riches cannot be found in the hands of the thriftless. Nor can compassion be found in the hearts of those who eat meat. TK 252, TW Goodness is never one with the minds of these two: one who wields a weapon and one who feasts on a creature's flesh. TK 253, TW If you ask, "What is kindness and what is unkind?" it is not killing and killing. Thus, eating flesh is never virtuous. TK 254, TW Life is perpetuated by not eating meat.The clenched jaws of hell hold those who do. TK 255, TW If the world did not purchase and consume meat, there would be none to slaughter and offer meat for sale. TK 256, TW When a man realizes that meat is the butchered flesh of another creature, he must abstain from eating it. TK 257, TW Perceptive souls who have abandoned passion will not feed on flesh abandoned by life. TK 258, TW Greater than a thousand ghee offerings consumed in sacrificial fires is to not sacrifice and consume any living creature. TK 259, TW All that lives will press palms together in prayerful adoration of those who refuse to slaughter and savor meat. TK 260, TW X. Hindu Religious Leaders on Noninjury The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be measured by the way in which its animals are treated. Mahatma Gandhi As long as human society continues to allow cows to be regularly killed in slaughterhouses, there cannot be any question of peace and prosperity. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Refrain from killing knowingly even the trifling insects like a louse, a bug or a mosquito. Use no violence even to gain possession of a woman, wealth or kingdom. Never kill any animals even for the purpose of sacrifice. Non-violence is the greatest of all religions. Swami Sahajanand, Divine Life Society O lover of meditation, become pure and clean. Observe nonviolence in mind, speech and body. Never break another's heart. Avoid wounding another's feelings. Harm no one. Help all. Neither be afraid nor frighten others. Swami Muktananda Someone who believes in violence and continues causing injury to others can never be peaceful himself. Swami Satchidananda To be free from violence is the duty of every man. No thought of revenge, hatred or ill will should arise in our minds. Injuring others gives rise to hatred. Swami Sivananda By ahimsa, Patanjali meant the removal of the desire to kill. All forms of life have an equal right to the air of maya. The saint who uncovers the secret of creation will be in harmony with Nature's countless bewildering expressions. All men may understand this truth by overcoming the passion for destruction. Sri Yukteswar to Paramahansa Yogananda If you plant eggplant, you can pluck eggplants. If you sow goodness, you can reap goodness. If you sow evil, you will reap evil. Do good to all. God is there, within you. Don't kill. Don't harbor anger. Sage Yogaswami We are all of the same race and religion. We are holy beings established in Divinity itself. This truth can be understood only by those who have grasped it through the magical charm of a life of dharma-not by other means. Because of that, sages have emphatically proclaimed again and again that it is necessary to love all existing lives as one's own. Sage Yogaswami The test of ahimsa is the absence of jealousy. The man whose heart never cherishes even the thought of injury to anyone, who rejoices at the prosperity of even his greatest enemy, that man is the bhakta, he is the yogi, he is the guru of all. Swami Vivekananda Strictly speaking, no activity and no industry is possible without a certain amount of violence, no matter how little. Even the very process of living is impossible without a certain amount of violence. What we have to do is to minimize it to the greatest extent possible. Mahatma Gandhi, My Socialism, 34-35. You do not like to suffer yourself. How can you inflict suffering on others? Every killing is a suicide. The eternal, blissful and natural state has been smothered by this life of ignorance. In this way the present life is due to the killing of the eternal, pristine Being. Is it not a case of suicide? Ramana Maharshi, June 1935 The mansahari, "meat-eater," is poignantly described in the following passage from the obscure Mansahara Parihasajalpita Stotram. "Those who eat the flesh of other creatures are nothing less than gristle-grinders, blood-drinkers, muscle-munchers, sinew-chewers, carcass-crunchers, flesh-feeders-those who make their throat a garbage pit and their stomach a graveyard-mean, angry, loathsomely jealous, confused and beset by covetousness, who without restraint would lie, deceive, kill or steal to solve immediate problems. They are flesh-feeders, loathsome to the Gods, but friendly to the asuras, who become their Gods and Goddesses, the blood-sucking monsters who inhabit Naraka and deceptively have it decorated to look like the pitriloka, the world of the fathers. To such beings the deluded meat-eaters pay homage and prostrate while munching the succulent flesh off bones." Bibliography BgM: Juan Mascaro, The Bhagavad Gita (Baltimore, Penguin Books, 1966). VE: Raimundo Panikkar, The Vedic Experience (New Delhi, Motilal Banarsidass, 1989). RM: Arthur Osborne, ed., The Collected Works of Ramana Maharshi (London, Rider, 1959). YP: Rammurti S. Mishra, The Textbook of Yoga Psychology (New York, Julian Press, 1963). TW: Tiruvalluvar, Tirukural: The Weaver (English translation by Himalayan Academy, Concord, California, manuscript). FS: Steven Rosen, Food for the Spirit, Vegetarianism and the World Religions (New York, 1990). Bala Books Inc. 74 Old Westbury Road, Old Westbury, N.Y, 11568 John Robbins, Diet For a New America (Walpole, New Hampshire, 1987). Stillpoint Publishing, Box 640, Walpole, NH 03608 From: mvishnu@bcr5.uwaterloo.ca (Meenan Vishnu) Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern Subject: Classical Languages of India I : Tamil Date: 19 Sep 1993 16:00:56 -0700 Approved: nabil@world.net (Aaron Nabil) AUTHOR: Walker, George Benjamin, 1913- TITLE: The Hindu world; an encyclopedic survey of Hinduism by Benjamin Walker. IMPRINT: New York, Praeger [c1968] CALL NUMBER: BL1105.W34 TAMIL is the most highly cultivated of the Dravidian tongues, spoken by about fifteen million people in south-east Indian and southern Ceylon. The name is derived from ancient Damila, a non-Aryan Warlike people of South India who figure in early Buddhist and Jain records. Tamil is an extremely refined medium of communication, and there is no ground for supposing, as the early Sanskrit writers did, that it was spoken by a primitive people. The language has a rich and varied vocabulary and is extraordinary in its subtlety and sense of logic, and the refinements of its grammer bear comparison with the most precise for expressing nuances of thought and meaning. It is remarkably rich is honorifics, a charateristic of a decadent rather than a primitive culture, which suggests a highly mature satge of civilization. The manner in which the negative form of the verb is obtained is both ingenious and logical , while `the system of interrogatives is as perfect as could be formed by the human mind' (IV,p.202). The prodigious literary output of Tamil has to a certain extent been reduced to order by its systematic arrangement into anthologies in which much of the best material has been preserved. Some of the writhngs, according to Tamil tradition, go back many thousands of years. Tamil legend speaks of three grat literary academies called sangam, which met at or near Madura, and early Tamil writing is referred to as sangam literature. All the three sangams most probably flourished between the first and fifth centuries AD, under the patronage of Pandyan kings, but they have been ascribed a hoary origin, and the chronology allotted to the poets of these sangams is extremely confused. The first sangam was supposed to have met about 10,000 BC, convened by the rishi Agastya, the mythical Apostle of the Decccan, and even the gods participated in its deliberations. It was held on Mount mahendra in the Kumari Nadu and lasted for four thousand four hundred and forty years. But a great flood swept over the country and nearly all the writings perished, although fragments of a work known as the Agattiyam were saved. This was a treatise on Tamil grammer attributed to Agastya himself. According to Tamil Saivites another important work also survived the Flood, namely, the Nanmarai, or `Four Scriptures', dealing with virtue, wealth, pleasure and bliss. The present version, said to be a redaction of the original, is one of the basec scriptures of the Saivites. The second sangam traditionally lasted three thousand seven hundred years, and only one example of this preiod survives, namely, the Tolkapiyam, the earliet extant Tamil work, a grammer of the language by a Jain author, known after it as Tolkappiyar(c AD ?200-450). Believed to have been written long before the sage Vyasa compiled the Vedas, it nonetheless shown an acquaintance with Panini and Manu. It deals with phonetic rules, word construction, syntax, literary convention, rhetoric and prosody. The third sangam is said to have lasted one thousand eight hundred and fifty years, and the work of its poets was colletcted into the Ettuttogai, `Eight Anthologies', and the Pattup-pattu, `Ten Idylls', comprising a total of 2,500 hymns, ballads, erotic verses, and Iyrics in praise of the country, of gods and of kings, by about three hundred authors. Some poems by Kapilar are included in the Pattup-pattu. Most of these poems were sung by minstrels at the princely courts, and are as archaic sounding to the modern Tamil student as Beowulf and piers Plowman are to the student of modern English. These great were all but forgotten by the Tamils themselves till the end of the last century, and have yet to be fully and critically edited. The writings contain references to the Yavanas(Greeks) as brave seafarers, as bodyguards to the kings,and as palace guards. The possibility of Greek influence on sangam literature has sometimes been noted. The first truly great poetical composition in Tamil is a work by Tiruvaluvar (c AD 400) known as the Kural, the most venerated book south of the Godaveri. A sister of Trivalluvar, named Avvaiyar, is a highly revered poetess in her own right, who has a splendid marital ode to her credit. Also worthy of note by an unknown but probaly contemporary author is the romantic epic Chintamani. It is full of grandeur and beauty, with exquisite descriptions of natural scenery, and shows a delicate and masterly handling of its story. Jain influence is once more discerned in the Naladiyar (?400-800?), originally consisting of 8,000 verses written, one each, by as many Jains. To test their worth the verses were cast into a stream by order of a king, and only 400 floated, while the tested disappeared beneath the waters. These 400 poems constitute the present Naladiyar. There is no mention of god in the collection, but a burning sense of morality pervades the whole work, which is written in a terse and vigorous style. The middle of the seventh century saw the birth of another Tamil masterpiece, the subject of much commentary. Written by the poet Ilango it tells of the awe-inspiring wrath of a woman whose husband was unjustly slain by a king. To the same period belongs a sequel to this classic written by Sattan, with a Buddhist bias. In the 9th century the poet Kampan wrote a Ramayana, a highly finished and popular work, based in part on an earlier Jain epic, also in Tamil. The character of Ravana is drawn in heroic proportions before whom Rama is an unimpressive little figure. It is said by Tamil scholars to challange comparison with the Ramayana of Valmiki. The period between the 7th and 9th century saw the rise of two powerful religious currents which found expression in Tamil poetry and constitute the chief glory of Tamil literature. These were the works of the Saivaite saints and Vaishnavaite hymn writers. The Saivaite material was put together in the Thirumurai, an anthology of hymns by 63 devotees, including Thirumular, Appar, Sambandhar and Sundarar, Nambi and Sekizhar, and a masterpiece by Manikkavacakar. Together they constitute the canon of the Saiva Siddhandha school. The Vaishnavaite hymns were composed by a group of poets known as the Azhvars, who flourished in the same period. Their hymns collected into a volume of four thousand verses are known as the Prabantham, the prayer and hymn book of the south Indian Vaishnavaites. What is sometimes called the golden age of Tamil literature was at its height between the 10th and 13th century. Sanskrit influences predominated along with the writings in Tamil, and there appeared a debased form of composition called Manipralavam, made up of a mixture of Sanskrit and Tamil, Sanskrit phrases and grammatical forms being intermingled with Tamil. This artificially lead deterioration of style and language from which Tamil writing did not recover until it came under the influence of English literature five centuries later. In the 17th century a reaction against the Sanskrit trend set in, best exemplified in the anti-brahmanical writings of the Siththars (or Siddha) school (see Nathas). The Siththars were a Tamil sect who, while retaining Siva as the name of the one God, rejected everything in Siva worship inconsistent with pure theism. They have been described as quietists in religion and alchemist in science. Their mystical poems, especially the Siva Vaakiyam, are held in high regard. They are strong against idolatory, and according to some critics their works bear traces of Christian influence. A literary curiosity indicative of the influences operating on South Indian writing at this period was the work of Viramaamunivar (1680-1747), the Tamil name of Father Constancio Beschi, an Italian Jesuit, whose Thembavani written in irreproachable Tamil contains stories from the old and new testaments. It is regarded as a Tamil classic and has been the subject of commentaries by Hindua and Tamil scholars. The work of Christian missionaries in the revival of Tamil letters is universally acknowledged in the South today. They simplified the script, introduced punctuation, gave an impetus to prose works; wrote the first Tamil treatises on Science, introduced the printing press, produced Tamil tracts, books and magazines, and set up societies for promoting Tamil writing (V, p.9). Of recent writers in Tamil, two are particularly worthy of notice. The first is Subramniya Bharathi (d. 1921), whose poems, written in terse simple style are tempered and restrained, albeit full of patriotic favour. He was a great lover of Shelley and in his own verse tried to combine the best of the old and the new, introducing forms and expressing sentiments reminiscent of the romantic revival. The second is Ramalingam Pillai (b. 1888) whose started his career as a painter and with Gandhi's encouragement turned to writing poetry. His work earned for him in 1949, the poet laureate in Tamil. Reference I. Aiyangar, M. S. "Tamil Studies", Madras, 1914. II. Dikshitar, V. R. R. "Studies in Tamil Literature and History", London, 1930. III. Kingsbury, F. and Philips, G. E. "Hymns of the Tamil Saivite Saints", Calcutta, 1921. IV. Majumdar, R. C. (Ed.) "The Vedic Age", London, 1951. V. Paranjoti, V. "Saiva Siddhanta", 2nd Ed., London, 1954. VI. Pillai, M. S. P. "Tamil Literature", Tinnevelly, 1929. VII. Pillai, S. V. "History of Tamil Language and Literature", Madras, 1956. From: mvishnu@bcr5.uwaterloo.ca (Meenan Vishnu) Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern Subject: Classical Languages of India II : Sanskrit Date: 19 Sep 1993 16:01:20 -0700 Approved: nabil@world.net (Aaron Nabil) AUTHOR: Walker, George Benjamin, 1913- TITLE: The Hindu world; an encyclopedic survey of Hinduism by Benjamin Walker. IMPRINT: New York, Praeger [c1968] CALL NUMBER: BL1105.W34 SANSKRIT (samskrita, 'elaborated'), the principal of the post-Vedic languages of India, is regarded by Hindus as a sacred tongue, 'currently among the gods' (I, p.20). Actually Sanskrit is a comparatively late arrival among the ancient tongues, dating from about 300 B.C, while itd masterpieces were produced from some six centuries later. As its name implies, Sanskrit was an artificially 'put together' medium of communication, as opposed to the spontaneously and natuarally evolved Praakrit. It constituted in effect an elaboration of a decadent form of Vedic, built upon rules mainly fixed by the grammarian PaaNini (c. 300 BC). Four stages of Sanskrit are often distinguished, namely (I) PaaNinian Sanskrit, after PaaNini who first codified the current rules governing the language, (2) Epic Sanskrit, the language of the Mahaabhaaratha and RaamaayaNa, (3) classical Sanskrit, the language of the kathaas, dramas, kaavyas, histories, and PuraaNas, and (4) Medieval Sanskrit, exemplified in the jargon of the monasteries, the 'dog Sanskrit' of craftsmen's handbooks, and other variants (see Literature). A comparison between Vedic and Sanskrit shows that in phonology the two language did not differ much; while in accidence it might be called not a development but a decadence from the Vedic system. Several Vedic grammatical forms are lost in Sanskri, aprticularly in respect of mood; one form of the infinitive has survived in Sanskrit out of fifteen forms used in Vedic. A similar loss is found in tenses and prefixes. Sanskrit however made up its losses by developing a technique of coining massive compund words, rare in Vedic, and in a complex grammatical and structural framework both in prose and verse. In addition to the seven Vedic metres a score of other metres came into vogue in Sanskrit, some of them hardly usable without verbal contortion. The difference between Vedic and Sanskrit reflected the indigenous 'Hindu' milieu in which the latter language developed, as distinct for the Indo-Iranian background of early Vedic. The Indo-Iranian triabl communities gave place to new territorial kingdoms situated on great rivers and the jungle retreats of the rishis. The old Iranian gods faded in importance and were substituted by deities of new dimensions, Brahmaa, Shiva, VishNu, KrishNa, the Naagas, the Linga. The supernatural, the demoniacal and the grotesque invaded Sanskrit almost from the beginning. The development of Sanskrit was considerably modified by the infusion of a large number of foreign words. The philosopher Kumaarila commented on how foreign words were picked up and transformed into Sanskrit by grammatical and phonetical alterations, often so cunningly that the original wors were hardly recognizable. Sanskrit thus had its roots in the decadent form of Vedic which gave it its structural core. The peculiarly Indian characteristis as distinct from the Iranian were due to the prevailing influences of the older dialectical forms of Praakrit which itself had been modified by a diversity of aboriginal linguistic influences in India. The word borrowings give an indication of the areas in which these influences operated. The indiginous Austric 'ng' sounds are found in the name Gangaa (the river Ganges) and the word linga, both Austric words. Many place-name endings, like garh (e.g. Ramgarh) are aboriginal or Munda in origin. Tibeto-Burmese or north-eastern loan words include Bhullam-buthur, 'making a gurgling sound', which became Sanskritized into Brahmaputra, the name of India's largest river. Similarly, Dravidian elements are strong in Sanskrit which derives much of its intonation from native speech. The phonetics system of Sanskrit is intermediate between Tamil and the Dravidian tongues on the one hand and the Indo-Iranian languages on the other. Certain sounds, unknown to the Aryan family of speech notably the cerebrals, found their way into Sanskrit from the Dravidian languages (VIII, p.202), and it has been pointed out by some scholars that teh syntax of Sanskrit, as od all other Aryan languages in India is fundamentally Dravidian rather than Aryan in character. Words borrowed from the Dravidian tongues were sometimes arbitratily changed and it is therefore not always easy to recognize the original. But in many cases, especially in the Sanskrit of the South, Dravidian words were taken over with scarcely any attempt at modification. The following are a few such words: chayra, 'thief'; maala, 'garland'; paapa, 'sin';pooja, 'worship'; putra,'son'; vaira, 'hostile'. Name-endings such as cheri, 'place' (e.g Pondicherry); naad, 'country' (e.g. Tamilnaad); nagar, 'town' (Vijayanagar); pur, 'city' (e,g Durgapur), are likewise Dravidian. >From Iran came a wide vocabulary of Indo-Iranian words that were part of the original inheritance of the Indo-Aryan period of history. In later times important words like divira (scribe), kshatrapa (satrap), lipi (writings) mudraa (seal), were adopted from Persian. The evolution of Sanskrit received further stimulus during the period of foreign (barbarian) domination of the north, starting fromt the Greeks who brought to bear on Indian life and culture fresh influences deriving from Alexandria and the Mediterraean Greek world. Evidence of the Greek heritage is found in the Sanskrit vocabulary of mathermatics, astronomy, numsimatics, warfare, the theatre and medicine, for example: harija (from horizon); hridroga (Greek hudrochoos); kendra (kentron); lipta (lepte); leya (leon, lion); parthona (Parthenos); trikona (trigonon); kona (gonia, angle). Inevitably further mutations of Sanskrit speech continued throughout the centuries of foreign domination and, as Kumaarila observed, many loanwords from the Kushaans, Parthians and Sakas were picked and assimilated (I,p.274). Seed-beds of foreign influence enjoying great celebrity in academic matters were places like Taxila and Pushkalaavatee, and it was in this fertile soil of classical Sanskrit was first developed (VIII, p.258). The use of Sanskrit for profane as opposed to sacred writing was to a great extent due to the initiatives of Mongolian Saka amd Kushaan satraps of Western India during the second century AD, one of whom, Rudradaaman, is responsible for the first official inscription in Sanskrit throughout. Its so-called final and present form was fixed during the braahmanical revival whose vehicle was the Sanskrit language. This period saw the development of a characteristic feature, those strange linguistic monstrosities, the lumbering sesquipedalian compounds which reached their fulfilment in the kaavya and gadya forms of writing. Sanskrit is capable of wonderful and varied sound effects because of the alternation of the softer sounds with the drumming effect of the aspirated consonants. There is therefore much scope for verbal melofy of a rather harsh type. It is like the Indian elephant with a heavy plodding rhythm fo alternating cadences. It permits the formation of long compounds whose sounds are juxtaposed in extraordinary confusion that requires a precise knowledge of grammatical rules to sort out. To the ear unattunated to its heavy cadences it would appear harsh and lacking in sweetness. Because of its extremely complicated grammar it is highly improbable that Sanskrit was ever a widely spoken language, current among the general populace, and some scholars are inclined to think that literaru works in Sanskrit never had any real life at all, but were altogether scholastic productions. Much has been made of the incident recorded in Patanjali's Mahaabhaashya, where a charioteer is represented as holding a discussion in Sanskrit with a grammarian on the derivation of an obscure word. Charioteers were court bards and their familiarity with the priestly tongue does not necessarily indicate an acquantance with it on the part of the general public. The man in the street did not understand Sanskrit, and those who wished to reach the common people resorted to the Praakrit vernaculars. When Buddha preached his doctrine he advocated the use of dialects of the common folk. Asoka used the language and scripts current in his domains to spread the Gospel of the Good Law. Tulseedaas, great scholar of Sanskrit though he was, preferred to write in the vernacular, defending his wise choice with the statement that his language was an earthen vessel containing ambroisa, while Sanskrit was a jewelled cup of extreme beauty which held poison. Kabeer, the great reformer, likened Sanskrit to the water of a well, and the language of the people to a running stream. Indeed, it is difficult to imagine that the artificial, stilted forms of Sanskrit grammar could ever have been used as medium of popular expresion in India. In his *Loom of Language* Frederick Bodmer discusses Sanskrit in a chapter entitled The Diseases of Language. Modern Hindu reformers have frequently reiterated the same plaint, and have advoacated the abandonment of Sanskrit as a vehicle of thought expression. As Raammohan Roy put it, ' The Sanskrit language, so difficult that almost a lifetime is necessary for its acquisition, is well known to have been for ages a lamantabel check to the diffusion of knowledge, and the learning concealed under this almost impervious veil is far from sufficient to reward the labour of acquiring it'. Contemporary scholarship has given similar appraisal of Sanskrit and the Sanskrit classics. The Indian epics, the work of Kaalidaasa, the aphorism of Bhartrihari, when they first became known to the West, aroused tremendous interest, for they represented a huge corpus of writings till then unknown to the Western world. These and other works even today 'keep alive a certain superficial sympathy for Indian literature', as Max Muller expressed it; but the first flush of enthusiasm has passed, and scholars have considerably revised their opinion of its merits. Primarily the early writings retain their significance in the study of the history of mankind in the primitive stages of its development, but it were rash to go further in extolling their merits. That great advocate of Sanskrit studies. Max Muller declared. ' I do not claim for the ancient Indian literature any more that I should willingly concede to the fables and traditions and songs of savage nations. I simply say that in the Veda we have a nearer approach to a beginning, and an intelligent beginning, than in the wild invocations of the Hottentotes and Bushmen'. Serious students 'while gladly admitting their claim to be called pretty attractive, could not think of allowing Sanskrit literature a place by the side of Greek, Latin, Italian, French, English or German'. Harsh as this would appear to be, current scholarship would not greatly modify this opion. References (partial) I. Chakravarthi, P.C. "The Linguistic Speculations of the Hindus", 1933. II. Chandrasekaran, K. and Sastri, B. H. S. "Sanskrit Literature", 1951. III. Frazer, R. W. "Literary History of India", London, 1898. IV. Keith, A. B. "Classical Sanskrit Literature", 1924. V. Keith, A. B. "A History of Sanskrit Literature", 1928. VI. Krishnamachariar, M. "History of Classical Sanskrit Literature", 1937. (few more). From taoism-l-owner@coombs.anu.edu.au Mon Sep 20 21:09:47 1993 To: TAOISM-L@coombs.anu.edu.au From: jdsellmann@uog.pacific.edu Subject: Way vs. meditation Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 18:04:53 PDT sorry this thing gets away from me. any way dhyana in Chinese is pronounced ch'an written with a chinese character not in Indic script; the Jampanes transliterate (change over the sound) the ch'an character as zen; apparently the Ch'an "school" "sect" (some call it the "true' way of Buddhism) takes its some Ch'an takes it name from the 7th path of the 8-fold way because it stress dhyana, meditation. As Dan mentioned in an earlier history lesson the Buddhist translators borrowed a lot of "Taoist" terminology to translate Buddhist concepts; what part of Ch'an came form India is an interesting academic and Ch'an question (Why did Bodhidharma travel west East to China?). An number of different appraoched to Ch'an develop; John MacRae will have to fill in here; there is a lot of political stuff going on between the north and the south the fast and the slow approaches. Lin chi is transliterated as Rinzai in Japan. What makes "taoism" different from Ch'an? there are lost of differences but one big one that stands out is that Ch'an is on a mission, a mission from the Buddha, to liberate feeling beings from dis-ease, samsara; Buddhism is soteriological or rather liberational; especially early "taoism" is missin that mission; later "taoism" also seek to save sentient beings, and liberate them (the "religions" or religiophilosophies have two different tendencies the being saved by an "other power" of the Buddha or Jade Emperor; or being liberated by one's own "self-effort" usually via a meditation practices supposedly established by the Buddha or Lao Tzu). Can there be a zen/ch'an/meditation expereience without a historical base; can there be history with out a meditation experience base? jim From: sitaram@watson.ibm.com (Dinkar Sitaram) Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern Subject: Re: Classical Languages of India II : Sanskrit Date: 21 Sep 1993 02:04:30 -0700 Approved: nabil@world.net (Aaron Nabil) This article, like much of Mr. Walker's output, is so filled with elementary errors that it is tiresome to point them out. Here are some of the more obvious ones: |> Actually Sanskrit is a comparatively late arrival among the ancient |> tongues, dating from about 300 B.C, |> This is obviously false, since the Vedas are in Sanskrit. What Mr. Walker does is define the language of the Vedas as a seperate language called "Vedic". This allows him to claim that Sanskrit is relatively recent. |> It constituted in effect an elaboration of a |> decadent form of Vedic, built upon rules mainly fixed by the grammarian PaaNini |> (c. 300 BC). |> Mr. Walker seems to say that Sanskrit is as old as Panini. This is absurd. Most scholars agree that Panini's grammar, (because of its sophistication and internal references to earlier grammarians) is not an early work but the culmination of a long line of linguistic enquiry. This clearly implies that Sanskrit must be much older than Panini. |> and it has been pointed out by some scholars |> that teh syntax of Sanskrit, as od all other Aryan languages in India is |> fundamentally Dravidian rather than Aryan in character |> Can somebody provide a reference for this astonishing claim? |> Because of its extremely complicated grammar it is highly improbable that |> Sanskrit was ever a widely spoken language, current among the general populace, |> On the other hand, highly reputable scholars such as Basham think that Panini's grammar was based on the language as it was spoken in Northwest India at the time. Raychaudhari's book (a standard textbook in India) also makes the same statement. |> and some scholars are inclined to think that literaru works in Sanskrit never |> had any real life at all, but were altogether scholastic productions. |> This is astonishing, since even Mr. Walker presumably would admit that the Ramayana, the Mahabharata and the Gita are all in Sanskrit. Also, please go to a concert of classical music and watch people listen to compositions by Jayadeva or other composers which are clearly in Sanskrit. Even people who do not listen to classical music are probably familiar with songs such as "Tvameva mata, pita tvameva..." or "Vande Mataram" not to mention "Jana Gana Mana". |> References (partial) |> |> I. Chakravarthi, P.C. "The Linguistic Speculations of the Hindus", 1933. |> II. Chandrasekaran, K. and Sastri, B. H. S. "Sanskrit Literature", 1951. |> III. Frazer, R. W. "Literary History of India", London, 1898. |> IV. Keith, A. B. "Classical Sanskrit Literature", 1924. |> V. Keith, A. B. "A History of Sanskrit Literature", 1928. |> VI. Krishnamachariar, M. "History of Classical Sanskrit Literature", 1937. |> (few more). |> Again, all the references Mr. Walker supplies are outdated. Is this because modern scholars would not agree with his opinions? If I wrote a paper in which the latest reference was to something from 1951, it would certainly be rejected by any journal I submitted it to without the paper even being read. I note that Mr. Walker has even dredged up a reference from 1898! Aren't there any reputable modern scholars who agree with Mr. Walker's assertions? The scholarship of anybody who relies on outdated material is suspect. Dinkar From taoism-l-owner@coombs.anu.edu.au Wed Sep 22 21:03:16 1993 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 20:54:59 -0400 To: TAOISM-L@coombs.anu.edu.au From: dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Subject: Re: On Taoism and Zen > What I am conjecturing is that the zen >buddhist, by idealising the state of no-mind or no-desire, differs in outlook >from the taoist, who seeks intimacy with the world rather than distance from >it. The taoist does not seek to retreat from the world so much as to become >one with it. To this end he does not idealise a state of being; he idealises >naturalness and grace. Contrary to the opinion readers of DT Suzuki and his ilk may have, no-mind and no-desire are not the beginning and end of Zen or Ch'an - in fact, those notions are either absent in much of its literature or play an insignificant role (lost amidst countless other Ch'an rhetorical terms and phrases). Actually the term no-mind was introduced so that Buddhists would be sure to *not* idealize "mind" - there is no "state" (of mind, being, the contiguous 48, consciousness) associated with no-mind. >Further to this, I am conjecturing that although the taoist and the >zenist both seek to lose self, desire and knowledge, the zenist does so >in expectation of a variety of religious ecstacy, where the taoist does >so in order to become graceful. Another conjecture not grounded in sound evidence. Soto sitting, for instance, according to most of its rhetoric (deriving from Dogen), claims explicitly and repeatedly that sitting itself is enlightenment; one does not sit *for* something. On the contrary, it is the so-called taoists who concocted and consumed toxic substances, engaged in all sorts of gymnastics and labored breathing practices, visualizations of little palaces and starry constellations throughout their body, etc., in the hopes of certain peak experiences or accomplishments. >I conjecture that the zenist subjects himself to ritual and devotes >himself to deliberation by his meditation, by learning the various >sutras and koans, by the question and answer of the mondo. He is >concerned with right thinking, and right action. The taoist rejects >ritual and deliberation outright. The zenist seeks to reject the world >and its entanglements; the taoist, realising that the self and the >world are identical, seeks to nurture and accept the world. Ever read Michael Saso's Teachings of Master Chang? (a sort of Casteneda-like apprenticeship with a contemporary Taoist "master"). Talk about Taoist ritualism! The *freedom* that the rigid monastic structure entails is one of Ch'an's most profound koans. That's not a rhetorical acceptance of being in the world rather than escaping it, but its actualization. Dan Lusthaus dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu Bates College From taoism-l-owner@coombs.anu.edu.au Wed Sep 22 22:35:32 1993 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 22:27:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen_Y._Chan@transarc.com To: TAOISM-L@coombs.anu.edu.au (TAOISM-L@coombs.anu.edu.au) Subject: Re: On Taoism and Zen Peter Alexander Merel writes: > buddhist, by idealising the state of no-mind or no-desire, differs in outlook > from the taoist, who seeks intimacy with the world rather than distance from > it. As I understand Zen, distance from the world is *not* it's thrust. Perhaps in the older strains of Buddhism (Theravada) that were similar to Hinduism, transcendance is a goal. I suspect that attachment to the void is also a feature of Theravada Buddhism (but I'm not sure). Mindfulness and awareness are meant to bring people *back* to the world. > The taoist does not seek to retreat from the world so much as to become > one with it. To this end he does not idealise a state of being; he idealises > naturalness and grace. Zen folks don't really idealize too much, it seems. Except awareness (being in the here and now) and living with your full intensity. Here's a quote from "Refining Your Life", a translation of a manual for the monks in charge of food preparation at monasteries: "When we thoroughly understand the attitude underlying these remarks made by the tenzo, 'Other people are not me,' and 'If I do not do it now, when else can I do it,' that is, when we understand that there is no stability to be found in life other than living it out as it is, we will be able to comprehend the reasoning behind the principle of becoming emancipated from our pain and suffering by just being resolved to living through it as it is." > Further to this, I am conjecturing that although the taoist and the > zenist both seek to lose self, desire and knowledge, the zenist does so > in expectation of a variety of religious ecstacy, where the taoist does > so in order to become graceful. Practicing Zen with the expectation of religious ecstacy is considered a Bad Thing. > I conjecture that the zenist subjects himself to ritual and devotes > himself to deliberation by his meditation, by learning the various > sutras and koans, by the question and answer of the mondo. He is > concerned with right thinking, and right action. As I understand Zen, the rituals are meant to develop mindfulness (though I suspect that in "dead zen", the ritual becomes an end in itself). The koans are used to get the mind trapped in logical and symbolic gridlock, creating a "great ball of doubt" which eventually "explodes" and gives the student a glimpse into their own nature. Many of the great Zen teachers were extremely unorthodox. They created their own modalities for helping people get at the very heart of things. Through yelling and striking, through incisive sermons, through logic busting koans, through steady meditation or through intense question and answer sessions. They are all means to an end. > The taoist rejects > ritual and deliberation outright. The zenist seeks to reject the world > and its entanglements; The Zen person accepts the world as it is, accepting it's entanglements and it's pleasures. Stephen Chan chan@transarc.com |Transarc Corporation (412)338-6996 |707 Grant St "The best move is very close to the worse move."|Pittsburgh, PA 15219 From taoism-l-owner@coombs.anu.edu.au Thu Sep 23 09:49:49 1993 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 8:43:00 CST From: Nrs2460 To: taoism-l@coombs.anu.edu.au Subject: tao and zen -Reply Friends - In replying to Jim's latest post, I'm reminded of a story in John Blofeld's _The Secret and the Sublime_. If you don't know this book - well, it's just WONDERFUL. Blofeld traveled through China recording stories and teachings from Taoists. I'm thinking of one of the last stories in the book. Blofeld meets a real Taoist master. When Blofeld talks about his Buddhist teachers, the Master says something about any practice being as good as any other to begin with, as long as the "raft" doesn't actually pitch you overboard. The Master then says that at the beginning, all the little individual streams chatter and discuss, but become purposeful and silent as they glide toward their goal of merging into the river. I don't do justice to the story, but I hope all of you will look at this book if you haven't before. I think that there is definitely an aesthetic and environmental "feel" to Taoism which differs from Zen. I suspect that the ways of returning to the source are all totally individual. Personally, I find Zen's overall tone just too militant, intellectual, and unbending, while Taoism's seems gentle and chummy to me. However, I have no doubt that, outside of clothes, rituals, and perhaps style of teaching, one couldn't tell a Master of the Void from a Purveyor of the Uncarved Block. Just my individual impression, Nancy Smith nrs2460.BHC1@pcmail.dcccd.edu From taoism-l-owner@coombs.anu.edu.au Wed Sep 22 20:08:37 1993 From: Peter Alexander Merel Subject: Re: On Taoism and Zen To: TAOISM-L@coombs.anu.edu.au (TAOISM-L@coombs.anu.edu.au) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 9:59:46 EST Jim writes: >If any of this makes sense to anyone > I < deserve 60 blows! I'm sorry to have confused you Jim. What I am conjecturing is that the zen buddhist, by idealising the state of no-mind or no-desire, differs in outlook from the taoist, who seeks intimacy with the world rather than distance from it. The taoist does not seek to retreat from the world so much as to become one with it. To this end he does not idealise a state of being; he idealises naturalness and grace. Further to this, I am conjecturing that although the taoist and the zenist both seek to lose self, desire and knowledge, the zenist does so in expectation of a variety of religious ecstacy, where the taoist does so in order to become graceful. I conjecture that the zenist subjects himself to ritual and devotes himself to deliberation by his meditation, by learning the various sutras and koans, by the question and answer of the mondo. He is concerned with right thinking, and right action. The taoist rejects ritual and deliberation outright. The zenist seeks to reject the world and its entanglements; the taoist, realising that the self and the world are identical, seeks to nurture and accept the world. Clearer? >Or kill me. If I see you in the road :-) -- Internet: pete@extro.su.oz.au | Accept Everything. | UUCP: {uunet,mcvax}!munnari!extro!pete | Reject Nothing. | From: sanders@iitmax.iit.edu (Greg Sanders) Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern Subject: Re: Classical Languages of India II : Sanskrit Date: 22 Sep 1993 00:56:25 -0700 Approved: nabil@world.net (Aaron Nabil) I regret that I have lost the original article. It was by a Mr. Walker. > Because of its extremely complicated grammar it is highly improbable that > Sanskrit was ever a widely spoken language, current among the general > populace, This is not really true. Sanskrit Grammar is no more complex than that of, say, Lithuanian or ancient Greek. All human languages have complexities, and everything Sanskrit conveys by inflection, other languages convey by other means. This is a question of linguistics, and I refer the interested to the cited languages and the linguistics literature. ALL children have the innate ability to learn the grammar of a language like Sanskrit effortlessly. It is adults (Mr. Walker for example) who find it difficult. There is some argument that English, due to its large and extremely heterogeneous basic vocabulary (which one must master the usages and connotations of) presents more difficulties than any earlier language. The adept speaker of English may wish to consider whether s/he can state the reason why one can say, "Tweety told me the password," but one cannot say, "Tweety imparted me the password." Note that there is no problem with saying, "Tweety imparted the password" (a locution with no [dative case] indirect object). Religious considerations do not lead to linguistic complexities. That is as true of Sanskrit as any other language. (note the Followup-To line) -- Greg Sanders greg@steve.iit.edu From: mw@ipx2.rz.uni-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz) Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern Subject: Krishnamurti's Notebook Date: 23 Sep 1993 01:41:47 -0700 Approved: nabil@world.net (Aaron Nabil) Excerpts from Krishnamurti's Notebook (written 1961/62) [Harper & Row , 1984; ISBN 0-06-064795-7] "[...] Every thought and feeling must flower for them to live and die; flowering of everything in you, the ambition, the greed, the hate, the joy, the passion; in the flowering there is their death and freedom. It is only in freedom that anything can flourish, not in suppression, in control and discipline; these only pervert, corrupt. Flowering and freedom is goodness and all virtue. To allow envy to flower is not easy; it is condemned or cherished but never given freedom. It is only in freedom the fact of envy reveals its colour, its shape, its depth, its peculiarities; if suppressed it will not reveal itself fully and freely. When it has shown itself completely, there is an ending of it only to reveal another fact, emptiness, loneliness, fear, and as each fact is allowed to flower, in freedom, in its entirity, the conflict between the observer and the observed ceases; there is no longer the censor but only observation, only seeing. Freedom can only be in completion not in repetition, suppression, obedience to a pattern of thought. There is completion only in flowering and dying; there is no flowering if there is no ending. What has continuity is thought in time. The flowering of thought is the ending of thought; for only in death there is the new. The new cannot be if there is no freedom from the known. Thought, the old, cannot bring into being the new; it must die for the new to be. What flowers must come to an end." "All existence is choice; only in aloneness there is no choice. Choice, in every form, is conflict. Contradiction is inevitable in choice; this contradiction, inner and outer breeds confusion and misery. To escape from this misery, gods, beliefs, nationalism, commitment to various patterns of activities become compulsive necessities. Having escaped, they become all important and escape is the way of illusion; then fear and anxiety set in. Despair and sorrow is the way of choice and there is no end to pain. Choice, selection, must always exist as long as there is the chooser, the accumulated memory of pain and pleasure, and every experience of choice only strengthens memory whose response becomes thought and feeling. Memory has only a partial significance, to respond mechanically; this response is choice. There is no freedom in choice. You choose according to the background you have been brought up in, according to to your social, economic, religious conditioning. Choice invariably strengthens this conditioning; there is no escape from this conditioning, it only breeds more suffering. [...] Choice is always breeding misery. Watch it and you will see it, lurking, demanding, insisting and begging, and before you know where you are you are caught in its net of inescapable duties, responsibilities and despairs. Watch it and you will be aware of the fact. Be aware of the fact; you cannot change the fact; you may cover it up, run away from it, but you cannot change it. It is there. If you will let it alone, not interfering with it with your opinions and hopes, fears and despairs, with your calculated and cunning judgements, it will flower and show all its intricacies, its subtle ways and there are many, its seeming importance and ethics, its hidden motives and fancies. If you will leave the fact alone, it will show you all these and more. But you must be choicelessly aware of it, walking softly. Then you will see that choice, having flowered, dies and there is freedom, not that you are free but there is freedom. You are the maker of choice; you have ceased to make choice. There is nothing to choose. Out of this choiceless state there flowers aloneness. Its death is never ending. It is always flowering and it is always new. Dying to the known is to be alone. All choice is in the field of the known; action in this field always breeds sorrow. There is the ending of sorrow in aloneness." "[...] To the so-called religious to be sensitive is to sin, an evil reserved for the worldly; to the religious the beautyful is temptation, to be resisted; it's an evil distraction to be denied. Good works are not a substitute for love, and without love all activity leads to sorrow, noble or ignoble. The essence of affection is sensitivity and without it all worship is an escape from reality. To the monk, to the sanyasi, the senses are the way of pain, save thought which must be dedicated to the god of their conditioning. But thought is of the senses. It is thought that puts together time and it is thought that makes sensitivity sinful. To go beyond thought is virtue and that virtue is heightened sensitivity which is love. Love and there is no sin; love and do what you will and then there is no sorrow." "[...] You cannot see and listen to the outside without wandering on to the inside. Really the outside is the inside and the inside is the outside and it is difficult, almost impossible to separate them. You look at this magnificient tree and you wonder who is watching whom and presently there is no watcher at all. Everything is so intensively alive and there is only life and the watcher is as dead as the leaf. There is no dividing line between the tree, the birds and that man sitting in the shade and the earth that is so abundant. Virtue is there without thought and so there is order; order is not permanent; it is there only from moment to moment [...]" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * wonder everyday * nothing in particular * all is special * Marc Wachowitz From: Automatic digest processor Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 00:03:22 -0500 Subject: TIBET-L Digest - 21 Sep 1993 to 26 Sep 1993 ____________________________________________________________ LIFESTYLE: HOW TO LIVE FREE OF FEAR OF DEATH; TIBETAN LAMA SPEAKS OF MORTALITY ------------------------------------------------------------- The Boston Globe September 21, 1993, Tuesday, City Edition By James L. Franklin, Globe Staff Everybody is worried about dying, the Tibetan teacher Sogyal Rinpoche said. "But to die is extremely simple. You breathe out, and you don't breathe in." A ripple of laughter passed through the 400 people crowded into a conference room recently at Interface in Cambridge, a center for alternative religious, health and psychological programs. They'd come to see a lama, a Tibetan monk, who is noted for his ability to speak to Westerners and who, in a little less than a year, has sold nearly 100,000 copies of a book of Buddhist teachings, "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying." Rinpoche - a religious title meaning "precious one" - left his homeland as a child in 1959, studied in Catholic schools in India and in Britain at Trinity College, Cambridge, and set out to bring the ancient tradition of Tibet to bear on the anxieties of men and women in Europe and North America. "I'm not a very good lama," he insisted to an interviewer. He speaks often of his own teachers, his "masters," some of whom he served as translator when they came to the West. The book is the result of doing what his teachers told him, to pass on the ancient teaching to a new world, as "a service to humanity." That includes, he says, teaching Westerners "discernment": which Buddhist teachings to use and which to ignore, how to find a teacher and persevere on the path to enlightenment. And he is succeeding in drawing new students to Buddhism, said Steve Zimmerman of Watertown, who leads classes at Rinpoche's local Rigpa center there. "Because he was raised largely in the West, he has much greater understanding of Westerners." David F. Gibbs, 45, a social worker at the Merrimack Valley Hospice in Lowell, said he once found Tibetan Buddhism "too ritualistic and elaborate, beyond my cultural experience." Now he finds Rinpoche's teaching has helped him "develop more compassion and understanding," in seeing how the people who come to the hospice "are distinct from their behavior, how they are more than what they are thinking or feeling or doing." For part of the 10 years he spent preparing the book, Rinpoche worked in the hospice movement in Britain, helping those who face imminent death as a result of cancer, AIDS or other serious illnesses. He came to believe that much of what is wrong in Western society arises from the denial of death. "I feel this denial of death actually complicates problems that exist in Western society," Rinpoche said in the interview. "It is why there is no long-term vision, not very much thoughtfor the consequences of actions, little or no compassion." "People see death as terrible, as tragic. Because they want to live, they see death as the enemy of life and therefore deny death, which then becomes even more fearful and monstrous." Beneath this fear of death lies "the ultimate fear . . . the fear of looking into ourselves," he said. But death can be a friend, he told the crowd at Interface. "Death holds the key to the meaning of life," which is why Trappist brothers regularly greet each other with the Latin phrase memento mori, "remember you are dying," Rinpoche said. "Remembering . . . brings life into focus . . . It sorts out your priorities, so you do not live a trivial life . . . It helps you take care of the most important things in life first. Don't worry about dying; that will happen successfully whether you worry about it or not." He warns his students not to think about death "when you are depressed," but rather "when you are on holiday or impressed by music or natural beauty." But he knows that "when I am not practicing," or meditating in a disciplined way, "I am afraid of death." He has worried, too, about the death of the lamas with whom he left Tibet. "A whole generation of legendary masters is passing away - sometimes I wonder what the future is going to hold," he said. Rinpoche is hopeful when he remembers living teachers, such as the Dalai Lama, who wrote the foreword to his book. But he knows that the possible loss of Tibet is another experience of impermanence, of death, like that all human beings must face. His goal is to help the dying, those who care for them, and all who listen, to "face our own mortality and realize how much love, how much compassion is in you," he told an interviewer. "This dying forces you to look into yourself. And in this, compassion is the only way. Love is the only way." GRAPHIC: PHOTO From: Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern Subject: Re: Classical Languages of India II : Sanskrit Date: 24 Sep 1993 02:29:51 -0700 Approved: nabil@world.net (Aaron Nabil) The language of the Vedas and Classical Sanskrit do have certain dissimilarities, and scholars seem to migrate easily to the Vedic language, possible because of the intrinsic interest of the Vedas to students of Hinduism. But that is a 19th and 20th century sociological event; it has little to do with the historic status of Sanskrit as a language. It just isn't good science to talk, as Mr. Walker does, about the intrinsic ackwardness of the inflections of the language or the sound of it. The sound of Sanskrit is quite pleasing to people who study and like Sanskrit, but that's a highly subjective issue, irrelevant to serious considerations of language. It is true that the noun declensions in Sanskrit are complicated. So are the noun declensions in modern Russian, but people learn it. The verb in classical Sanskrit is not as complex as the verb in Vedic Sanskrit, but what does that measure? The Spanish verb is far more complex than the American English verb. Does a complex verb make one language superior to another? Again, these assertions of Mr. Walker's are just bad linguistic science. To make a long story short, the word "saskirta" appears to mean something like "purified" as in, grammatically purified and explained. It was an artificial language appropriate to educated people in Ancient India as College English is an artificial language appropriate to construct technical meanings in contemporary America. And Classical Latin was an artificial language as well, no one except Cicero spoke as eleaborately as Cicero, but he was a model of good usage as College English is a model of good usage and Classical Sanskrit is a model of good usage. No classical language has any appeal to people who are searching for the common speech of the common people. Colloquial English serves that purpose just as well as Medieval Latin served for inter-European business a thousand years ago and Buddhist Sanskrit obscurities and neologisms served the advance of Buddhist thought. The notion that languages are good or bad or beautiful or ugly is just silliness. They are vehicles of communication. When people understand them, they serve their purpose. Language is a matter of pragmatics before it is a matter of aesthetics. One last point: what's wrong with linking nouns stems together? Why not? Anglo-Saxon did it; German still does it. And Classical Sanskrit did it with magnificence and subtility. What could be more splendid than a word like "prajnaparamitamahamantra" ? It means exactly what it says. Which is more precise, the word above or a lengthyEnglish circumlocution like "a mantra or charm used in a ceremonial context that is great in resonance and application and promotes the cultivation of the perfection of wisdom in the spiritual sense"? Obviously, Sanskrit speakers knew what they meant. And that's the point. Peace, Michael From taoism-l-owner@coombs.anu.edu.au Thu Sep 30 01:05:47 1993 To: Peter Alexander Merel Cc: "TAOISM-L@coombs.anu.edu.au" Subject: Re: Tao and Zen <199309292257.AA05192@extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 00:37:25 -0400 From: Thomas_Price@KANGA.FAC.CS.CMU.EDU Single carets indicate Pete Merel; double carets indicate any of a number of contributors. >>phrases). Actually the term no-mind was introduced so that Buddhists would >>be sure to *not* idealize "mind" - there is no "state" (of mind, being, the >>contiguous 48, consciousness) associated with no-mind. >>[...] >>Another conjecture not grounded in sound evidence. Soto sitting, for >>instance, according to most of its rhetoric (deriving from Dogen), claims >>explicitly and repeatedly that sitting itself is enlightenment; one does >>not sit *for* something. >If I tell you to shut your eyes, am I not idealizing darkness? If, for the >zenist, 'sitting itself is enlightenment', how can 'no-mind' not be his ideal? Here you trip over language. How can there be an ideal if there is no mind? Where will the ideal be? If I tell you to shut your eyes, I may be only telling you to shut your eyes! "Idealization" can only occur when actions are considered as occuring in some sort of causal relationship with other actions. In Zen every action is unique, there is no causality, and if someone tells you to shut your eyes, you mayn't deduce anything else from that. >>On the contrary, it is the so-called taoists who >>concocted and consumed toxic substances, engaged in all sorts of gymnastics >These are yogic and magickal traditions associated with Taoism. Zazen is a >yogic or magickal tradition associated with Zen. I won't deny the efficacy >of any of these practices. Rituals always have effects. I think it's generally accepted (unfortunately I can't cite references) that Zazen sitting should not be compared to any of the forms of yoga. They produce (and here comes the absent reference) differing EKG readings in practitioners. One can come to a similar conclusion by considering the descriptions of each. Zazen is supposed to instil "beginners' mind"; a state of readiness without particular focus. Practitioners of yoga visualize extensively and focus the attention. >>The *freedom* that the rigid monastic structure >>entails is one of Ch'an's most profound koans. That's not a rhetorical >>acceptance of being in the world rather than escaping it, but its >>actualization. >I take your point about the freedom provided by ritual, but if, as with >zazen, the ritual becomes an end in itself, does it not take us farther >from Tao? How will you be able to tell if the ritual ever becomes an end in itself? >I understand that this is the intention of zen, but it does not pursue it >so directly. I'm asking whether zazen is not a ritual in the same sense >that prayer is - a religious practice that requires faith and symbols? Suck it and see! >> Practicing Zen with the expectation of religious ecstacy is >>considered a Bad Thing. >Then why does zen make such an idol of enlightenment? This question doesn't follow unless you are prepared to assert that enlightenment = religious ecstacy. >So, as I suggested, zen is predicated on the idea that a particular state >of mind is superior to others, and that by attaining that state of mind >you come into contact with 'ultimate reality'. No? What trips you here, as elsewhere, is that somewhere on the threshold of the particular state of mind, "mind" disappears. >Well, if there is no-mind, then only the world is left. Two roads to the >same sort of thing. If you want to get rid of self and replace it with >Self, you can turn away from self or towards Self. >In taoism, even the Sage can't lose his 'self' - his world - that's the point. >He can only simplify, harmonize, make more graceful. He can indeed lose it, by making it irrelevant. If he never need name it, where is it? (Furthermore, if he never need name it, what could be more graceful?) >>Many thanks to Dan Lusthaus for pointing out that, historically speaking, the >>taoist sought intimacy with the world via elaborate astrological/alchemical >>rituals. >>I wonder if Pete wasn't, without realizing it, comparing the _Chuang Tzu_ >>to D.T. Suzuki's corpus (or equivalent), rather than comparing "the taoist" >>to "the zen buddhist"? >Historically speaking, the American advocated the enslavement of indigenous >people, but what of it? Taoism has a long history with all kinds of >cockamamie stuff in it, but I think, when we talk of philosophical taoism, >we're talking about Lao and Chuang - no? It's entirely up to us. Now that you've said so, yes. D.T. Suzuki *or* *equivalent* -- books about Zen, aimed at a Western market, rather than Zen practise. If I compare Suzuki to Chuang Tzu and you compare study at the Providence Zen center to Chi Kung practise, we both might say that we are comparing Zen to Taoism but we'll each be making very different comparisons. In fact study at the Providence Zen center, founded by the Korean Seung Sahn, is koan-based while study at the San Francisco Zen Center founded by the Japanese Soto monk (or is it Rinzai? I can never keep them straight) Shunryu Suzuki, is meditation-based. >I confess I haven't read D.T. Suzuki, so I don't know. What does he say? Oh, you know, ground of being, that kind of thing. Throws in some cool stories. >I have studied various forms of zen for nearly 30 years and I >NEVER heard that I was supposed to idealize some state. I >believe that to idealize some particular state would be a very >grave error. Also, whatever form of zen I am trying to >practice it's primary goal seems to be to accept experience as >it is, and to be fully participating in that experience from >moment to moment. As the zen master said "Life is as you find >it. Death too." >It's the 'moment to moment' bit that I was picking you up on. All of our >experience is in the past - the present is so infinitesimally small that >it does not bear on our experience. By drawing an artificial distinction >between 'now' and 'then', and devoting yourself to experience of 'now', you >distinguish yourself from a taoist, who doesn't recognise the distinction. If the taoist doesn't recognize the distinction between now and then, will he make any outrageous statements such as "the present ... does not bear on our experience"? For your statement to be coherent requires that you be understood as using "present/past" and "now/then" as separate concepts, and I can't figure out how to do that. The zenist quoted above seems to avoid the artificial distinction, while you cut yourself on it! Tom Price | heaven and earth regard the 10,000 | tp0x@cs.cmu.edu ****************** | things as straw dogs, baby -- TTC | ****************** From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Wed Sep 29 16:06:26 1993 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 16:01:19 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 27 Sep 1993 to 29 Sep 1993 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 8 messages totalling 249 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. postmodernism and the historical Buddha (2) 2. Mumonkan in French (?) (2) 3. BUDDHIST STUDIES IN CHINA, OR ELSEWHERE? 4. Nonstriving attainment (vs?) scholarly attachment 5. Naropa Institute 6. emptiness and purity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 08:29:23 EDT From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: postmodernism and the historical Buddha ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re: PUre Land. Earlier I offered a philosophical interpretation of Pure Land which saw the word Pure as a substitute for emptiness and I forwarded some tantric interpretations of PUre Land that I was taught in Tibet. Well, now I've found a locus classicus for the same ideas in, of all things, the Nichiren Shoshu. Which is turning out to be more profound that I had thought. This is a passage by Nichiren in which he argues that it is possible to attain Buddhahood in one lifetime by realizing that this very samsaric world is already the Pure Land and you are already the Buddha. If there is interest, I will quote the whole thing. It is in a letter from him written sometime around 1274 and occupies a chapter of his MAJOR WRITINGS entitled "Hell and Buddhahood." Robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 08:30:55 EDT From: Raynald Prevereau Subject: Mumonkan in French (?) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear BUDDHA-L subscribers, A friend of mine would like to know whether there exists any French translation of the Mumonkan. Is there any? Thanks in advance for your learned replies. Raynald Prevereau McGill University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 09:05:12 EDT From: Guy Isabel Subject: Re: Mumonkan in French (?) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Raynald Prevereay enquired: > A friend of mine would like to know whether there exists any French > translation of the Mumonkan. Is there any? Thanks in advance for your > learned replies. Here's one: _Passe sans porte (Wou-men-kouan : texte essentiel zen traduit et annot'e par Masunu Shibata)_ 2 i`eme 'edition Paris : Editions traditionnelles, c1968. Regards, Guy Isabel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 11:15:07 EDT From: Robin Brooks Kornman Subject: Re: BUDDHIST STUDIES IN CHINA, OR ELSEWHERE? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Erik Seeks Comments on Naropa Institute: I worked there for years and am still close to the faculty there. I'm not sure that this is what you want. There will be no opportunity to use your Chinese there. The program teaches exclusively Chinese and Tibetan, but since it is not truly a full PHD proram, you do not go very far in these languages. It is a decent place to start studying Tibetan Buddhism and there is a lama named Zigar Kongtrul who is very good. If you worked closely with him, it could be a very positive experience. But academically Naropa's BUddhist Studies PRogram is average at best. You would like to study Buddhism and use your Chinese. I suggest you get in contact with Raoul Birnbaum at Santa Cruz and discuss your situation with him. He is a Chinese Buddhist scholar who has experienced many of the programs and knows China as well. You have not said what aspect of Buddhist Studies is your particular\interest and, as all of us know on this listserve, there is tremendous variation in the emphasis different programs give. Some are language oriented. Others are excellent ways to study Buddhist scholastic philosophy. Others are, like Naropa, good for the contemplative tradition. Others, such as the programs in France, are good anthropologically. But there are few programs which are Buddhist Studies per se. The others on this list should simply list the other programs. It has been a while since anybody asked the question, what specifically Buddhist programs exist within credentialed academia. Robin Kornman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 15:46:40 EDT From: Russ Dewey Subject: Nonstriving attainment (vs?) scholarly attachment ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In message Wed, 29 Sep 1993 08:29:23 EDT, Robin Brooks Kornman writes: > ideas in, of all things, the Nichiren Shoshu. Which is turning out > to be more profound that I had thought. This is a passage by > Nichiren in which he argues that it is possible to attain Buddhahood > in one lifetime by realizing that this very samsaric world is already > the Pure Land and you are already the Buddha. By all means, post it. I for one am very interested in this "you're already there" theme which turns up also in Hinduism and even in early Christianity with "the Kingdom of God is here on earth." It seems to me this is the direct psychological opposite of the "disciplined striving" or "long uphill struggle" approach. This is also how I read the Hui-neng legend. "...no special conscious strivings are necessary; in fact they are a hindrance tot he attainment of Buddhahood. We are already Buddhas." (Suzuki *Zen Doctrine of No-Mind* p.73 f.n.) There seems to be a fundamental dichotomy between the notion that enlightment is attained gradually through the accumulation of skills, experiences, faithfulness to cultural roots, sophistication in replicating the pure and proper beliefs of yesterday, continuing approved ideology and practice (a strong thread in most *institutionalized* religion) and the iconoclastic, "throw off your shackles, open your eyes to what is" notion, found in Krishnamurti, Hui-neng, joyful participation in the sorrows of existence, samsara is nirvana. The former seems like a trap waiting to be sprung on scholars and sophisticates because the more "invested" one is in a particular set of beliefs a practices, the easier it is to confuse human mental constructions and artifacts with the living reality to which they (once) referred.... It may even be *inevitable* (shudder) once we "grasp" a thought or insight and make it "ours" by "understanding" it. The moment our ego possesses it, it loses its contact with the living reality and becomes instead something static, an object of thought. This in itself is an old, old idea, constantly being rediscovered. And maybe that's the key to keeping such insights alive...constant rediscovery, perhaps the only justification for religious "practice." Perhaps the objectification itself is the illusion, the continual renewal all that *really* exists. So it's OK to be rooted in the past as long as you realize it's a delusion? Hmmm. Russ Dewey Psychology Department Georgia Southern University rdewey@gasou.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 15:47:10 EDT From: "Peter D. Junger" Subject: Re: postmodernism and the historical Buddha ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Robin Kornman writes: > Re: PUre Land. Earlier I offered a philosophical interpretation of >Pure Land which saw the word Pure as a substitute for emptiness and >I forwarded some tantric interpretations of PUre Land that I was >taught in Tibet. Well, now I've found a locus classicus for the same >ideas in, of all things, the Nichiren Shoshu. In the Shoshu? As opposed to the writings of Nichiren? >This is a passage by >Nichiren in which he argues that it is possible to attain Buddhahood >in one lifetime by realizing that this very samsaric world is already >the Pure Land and you are already the Buddha. This sounds much like the position of the Jodo Shinshu: reciting "Namu Amida Butsu" is simply the grateful recognition of the fact that "I am one with the Buddha of Infinite Wisdom and Compassion." And the Pure Land is very near to here. >If there is interest, I will quote the whole thing. There is interest. Peter D. Junger Case Western Reserve University Law School, Cleveland, OH Internet: JUNGER@SAMSARA.LAW.CWRU.Edu -- Bitnet: JUNGER@CWRU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 15:47:26 EDT From: Ryo Imamura Subject: Naropa Institute ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I seem to always have a small but steady stream of students who are interested in graduate studies in psychotherapy at the Naropa Institute, and I don't really know what to tell them. Does anyone have any current information and opinions about their program that does not appear in their catalog? Please clarify your affiliation with Naropa, if any. Thanks in advance. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ryo Imamura Voice: 206-866-6000 x6148 Clinical Psychology FAX: 206-866-6794 The Evergreen State College Internet: imamura@elwha.evergreen.edu Olympia, WA 98505 imamura@carson.u.washington.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 15:47:37 EDT From: John McRae Subject: emptiness and purity ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Robin Kornman's posting on the correlation of emptiness and purity finally jogged my memory: Iriya Yoshitaka, a great but relatively unpublished scholar of Chinese literature, has an article on exactly this topic: "Kuu to joo" [Emptiness and Purity], _Fukui hakase shooju kinen tooyoo bunka ronshuu,_ compiled by Fukui hakase shooju kinenkai (Tokyo: Waseda Daigaku shuppan bu, 1969), 97-106. Iriya has emerged as a very significant figure in Ch'an studies over the last several decades because of his observation that traditional Japanese readings of Chinese Ch'an texts were riddled with inaccuracies deriving from a lack of familiarity with colloquial expressions. He and Professor Yanagida have published a number of translations, and Iriya gives the impression of having read and remembered everything written in medieval Chinese! The volume above is a festschrift for another major scholar, Fukui Koojun, a specialist in Chinese religious Taoism. In any case, Iriya suggests that in the Chinese mentality (he does not claim any expertise regarding India) the concepts of emptiness and purity are inextricably linked. In addition to Ch'an citations, he adduces evidence from the Analects of Confucius and a couple of versions of the La.nkaavataara. Roughly speaking, he suggests that the idea was present in Chinese thought prior to the arrival of Buddhism, which then reinforced the notion. The notion being that an empty sky, devoid of a single thing, was a/the Chinese referent for understanding both purity and emptiness. -- John McRae, Asian Studies Cornell University jrm5@cornell.edu P.S. My copy of this article is very faint and difficult to read at this point, so I don't think I should offer to send people copies. ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 27 Sep 1993 to 29 Sep 1993 *************************************************** From taoism-l-owner@coombs.anu.edu.au Thu Sep 30 13:28:32 1993 Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 12:57:39 -0400 To: TAOISM-L@coombs.anu.edu.au From: dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu (DanLusthaus) Subject: Re: Re: Tao and Zen >> Eyes are not closed during zazen. > >Actually, many times they are. Depends on the particular tradition, school, and > which form of practice is being done at the moment. > > Bill Knittle (Ven. An Tzu) Neither in Sung dynasty Ch'an practice, in Korean Son practice (which is very close to Sung in style and texture), nor in Japanese soto or rinzai are eyes closed during zazen - when it is being done properly. Since those are the only "traditions, schools," (zazen was the stipulated practice) in zen, what did you have in mind? I might also bring your attention to another way of reading that six-word sentence. It was meant as much as a metaphorical response as a "literal" response to the charge of zen idealization. I.e., the blindness underlying Ideal/idol making. Dan Lusthaus Bates College dlusthau@abacus.bates.edu From taoism-l-owner@coombs.anu.edu.au Fri Oct 1 20:28:20 1993 From: Peter Alexander Merel Subject: Re: Tao and Zen To: TAOISM-L@coombs.anu.edu.au (TAOISM-L@coombs.anu.edu.au) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 93 9:46:43 EST Thomas writes: >Pete writes: > >>If I tell you to shut your eyes, am I not idealizing darkness? If, for the >>zenist, 'sitting itself is enlightenment', how can 'no-mind' not be his ideal? > >Here you trip over language. How can there be an ideal if there is >no mind? Where will the ideal be? Before a swimmer dives into a pool, he intends to get wet. There is a lifetime of intention and deliberation before the zenist sits. He sits for a reason, and in this he pursues an ideal. Perhaps in his satori he loses this, or all ideals ... but as I understand satori, it is only experienced, not retained. So when he stands up again, his ideal has returned. >I think it's generally accepted (unfortunately I can't cite references) >that Zazen sitting should not be compared to any of the forms of yoga. >They produce (and here comes the absent reference) differing EKG readings >in practitioners. Oh poo, EKG readings demonstrate nothing falsifiable, and I did say 'or magickal'. You do certain things, you feel certain effects ... And I'm not saying that zazen is not effective - I do it a bit myself, and I find it wonderful. I'm simply saying that to attribute its effect to contacting 'reality' is an article of faith in Zenism that is not matched in Taoism. >>I take your point about the freedom provided by ritual, but if, as with >>zazen, the ritual becomes an end in itself, does it not take us farther >>from Tao? > >How will you be able to tell if the ritual ever becomes an end in itself? This was in response to Dan's suggestion that, in zen, zazen itself is enlightenment. >This question doesn't follow unless you are prepared to assert that >enlightenment = religious ecstacy. I am indeed coming to regret the use of the word 'ecstasy', but I am not sure what other word to use. What I meant was a neurosomatically profound experience, but ecstasy has unwanted connotations of pleasure. The zenist wants to experience reality as deeply as possible, to lose his 'self' and become pure awareness, in zazen. The taoist may benefit from the same practice of course - instructions like those in ttc ch 10 certainly bear a resemblance to zazen. And the taoist will wish to apprehend his experience as sharply as he can, just as the zenist. However the taoist doesn't simply eschew the abstractions that he has constructed in his world, the 'ten thousand things'. He recognises that these abstractions have utility, that he cannot be aware without them, and that by nurturing them as he does himself, without interfering with them in the sense of ttc ch 29, he follows the Tao. >>So, as I suggested, zen is predicated on the idea that a particular state >>of mind is superior to others, and that by attaining that state of mind >>you come into contact with 'ultimate reality'. No? > >What trips you here, as elsewhere, is that somewhere on the threshold of >the particular state of mind, "mind" disappears. But awareness does not. Would the phrase 'state of being' be more to your liking? I don't think Descartes or Lao Tse would recognise this distinction - and nor do I. Simply because we can give up symbols does not mean we give up awareness with them. >>In taoism, even the Sage can't lose his 'self' - his world - that's the point. >>He can only simplify, harmonize, make more graceful. > >He can indeed lose it, by making it irrelevant. If he never need name >it, where is it? (Furthermore, if he never need name it, what could be >more graceful?) I think we argue at cross purposes here. My point is that even the collapsed implicate state of the zenist is an awareness, a world - it is the degenerate world, but still no better than an abstraction of the Tao. I am not saying that the zenist uses his abstraction of self while in satori, but that by having awareness he maintains a world and has a self, even if his 'self' remains unattended and unrealised. >If the taoist doesn't recognize the distinction between now and then, will >he make any outrageous statements such as "the present ... does not bear on >our experience"? For your statement to be coherent requires that you be >understood as using "present/past" and "now/then" as separate concepts, >and I can't figure out how to do that. The zenist quoted above seems to >avoid the artificial distinction, while you cut yourself on it! My point is that the taoist understands (ttc ch 2) that all experiences are abstracted from the Tao - that 'the present' is a construction within the mind, not some special moment to be cherished for its fleetingness. The zenist strives to live 'now', but the taoist sees 'now' and 'then' as arbitrary categories that may be applied at his convenience. Neither 'now' nor 'then' is closer to the Tao. Straw dogs, remember? Internet: pete@extro.su.oz.au | Accept Everything. | UUCP: {uunet,mcvax}!munnari!extro!pete | Reject Nothing. | From taoism-l-owner@coombs.anu.edu.au Sat Oct 2 21:01:32 1993 From: Peter Alexander Merel Subject: Re: Knowledge again To: TAOISM-L@coombs.anu.edu.au (TAOISM-L@coombs.anu.edu.au) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 93 10:33:10 EST Thomas writes: >Pete writes: > >>it seems impossible to demonstrate that anyone's zen is the same as anyone >>else's. Even with colours we can't say that your 'red' is my 'red' - we can >>observe correspondances and distinctions by comparing contexts, but if zen >>is ineffable then we are unable to do even that. > >Quite the opposite is true. William Turnbow Stace, in _Philosophy and >Mysticism_, put forth the following serious argument: > >Things are only different if we can say what is different about them. I'm afraid I find this first lemma very rude. It requires that 'things' have properties in and of themselves - they 'are different', rather than 'they can be perceived as differing'. Then it requires that what we can express limits what we can experience. I don't see that either of these requirements hold. I find it very helpful when evaluating arguments like this to recast them into 'E-prime' - the english language without the verb 'to be', or at least english without 'to be' in the sense of identity. This yields: We can only perceive things as different from one another if we can say how we perceive them as differing. Which is plainly false. >If we can't say what is different about one thing from another, we say >that they are the same. This second lemma is facile too. If we can't say how two things differ, then all we can say is that we can't express the difference, not that they are the same. Godel, for example, demonstrates this quite nicely. >Nothing can be said about ineffable experience. >Therefore, all ineffable experience is identical. So the rest of the argument is invalid. >In fact, he goes further; not only does he say that there is one >enlightenment, he relates his conclusion to the mystical doctrine >that time is an illusion and we really live in an eternal present. >That is, there isn't just one kind of mystical experience; there >is *only* *one* mystical experience! And so this argument is invalid. Is this Stace chap some sort of Jungian or new ager? I can smell incense ... >I submit that the argument, far from being a trivial word-game, >is compelling, and if it is to be assaulted one must claim that >no experience is absolutely ineffable. I hope you will agree that I have required no such claim to refute the argument. >Against this assault one >will find ranged the universal claims of mystics that during their >experience, their "mind" and "self" vanish -- so who's to say? :-) The self is the world, so as long as there is awareness, any awareness, the self exists. Of course the distinction between self and world can disappear - the distinction is as arbitrary as 'now' and 'then' - but to lose it requires nothing 'mystical', no retreats to monasteries or hours of silence. Just accept the world that you see, that you recall, that you experience, and recognise that what you see _is_ who you are; like Kafka's Door of the Law, the entire world is your own construction, and reality lies inaccessible beyond it. What enlightenment runs deeper than that? -- Internet: pete@extro.su.oz.au | Accept Everything. | UUCP: {uunet,mcvax}!munnari!extro!pete | Reject Nothing. | From owner-BUDDHA-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Mon Oct 4 16:06:36 1993 Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 16:01:13 -0400 From: Automatic digest processor Subject: BUDDHA-L Digest - 1 Oct 1993 to 4 Oct 1993 To: Recipients of BUDDHA-L digests There are 4 messages totalling 184 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. bhakti trance? 2. buddhas inside and out 3. Buddhist Studies programs (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 08:09:13 EDT From: Galen Amstutz Subject: bhakti trance? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In Message Mon, 20 Sep 1993 08:30:35 EDT, Robin Brooks Kornman wrote: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > >Re Pure Land: > >"It helps to look into >Hinduism too...where there has been a HUGE, and eventually quite >philosophically sophisticated, network of bhakti traditions, which are >unfortunately hardly ever put into the same context as Buddhism, but could >have supplied mythic inspiration for PL. And so on. More Buddhist studies >needed!" >" >Here's an interesting question with reference to that: > >The Hindu Bhakti traditions that I've seen or read about all involve >religious practice, song, and dance leading to trance states, states of >eabout the >descent of shakti or the awakening of kundalini. The disciples expect >often to receive blessings which will work a transformation and purification >of their nadis. For example, there's the Maharashtran tradition of Jneshsvar >or just the typical cults to Krishna and Rama. > Now, e seen the same kind of discourse, the descent of blessings, >transformation of nadis, trances and dancing, in Tantric feast literature >and in the context of abhishekas. But never with reference to Pure Land. > Howcum? > >Robin Kornman Dear Robin, This is a very good objection. May I suggest, though, that you may indeed have missed something in the literature--maybe, especially the "literature." I have been reading about Ramanuja, Sri Vaisnavas, Saiva Siddhantas and Virasaivas lately. What is written in books clearly leaves out some of the funkier phenomena, such as dance, song, shakti, and trance states, and I agree with the general observation that bhakti Hinduism generally is on a different emotional wavelength than Buddhism. However, it seems clear that a great deal of the discussion of bhakti I haven't yet noted anything in summaries of Ramanuja that connects him with kundalini et al. Special note however: bhakti, in taking seriously, and in working with, the human and the absolute realms of experience in a bipolar or dyadic way reminds me not only of (boring) Pure Land and Shin Buddhism but of (mirabile dictu) left-handed tantra... How come? Thanks for your ideas! from: Galen Amstutz, Department of Religion, 231 Williams Bldg. R-15, Florida State University, Tallahassee FL 32306-1029 (904)644-0213 fax:(904)644-7225 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 08:13:03 EDT From: Galen Amstutz Subject: buddhas inside and out ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Thanks for recent comments on Pure Land. A seminar on PL here at FSU has been working through material on the "politics of nirvana" this fall and I'd like to share observations for comment. a) as near as we can tell, PL mythos was a normal, general part of Mahayana thinking, not treated as particularly distinctive by the "rounded" Indian-style versions of Buddhism (i.e. the exception is something like 8th century Ch'an); these rounded, complex versions of Buddhism brought together in their programs common assumptions about sunyata, the ultimate monism of pratityasamutpada, the importance of some kind of gradual practice, the final resolution only in a "leap," the "provisional" (paratantra) importance of externalized deities for "devotion," and the idea that the enlightenmeng that the conventional Amitabha PL concept did was to move the scene of SOME of the action to this other paratantra buddha-ksetra of the Amitabha Buddha; otherwise, 95% of the contents of the relig program (especially, the practice consciousness, and the mood, the ambience of Buddhism) are quite in common with the rest of the tradition; Asians, in short, didn't (with the special exception of friction between PL and early (primitive neo-Taoist) Ch'an, a phenomenon which needs much more unpacking) make anything like the sharp distinction between PL mythos and other Buddhist mythos that Westerners tend to make [perhaps this is because we understand it better than they have understood it??!!] c) however, there IS a difference in another, nonphilosophical dimension between situating the Buddha "outside" (as "devotional" language tends to do, or the 2nd cycle "heterogenous" approach to Buddhism tends to do) and situating the Buddha "inside" ("immanence") (as 3rd cycle "monistic" tathagatagarbha and Ch'an language does) [I use the scare quotes around inside and outside because I think these are merely spatial metaphors for something that is not spatial]. Only the "outside Buddha" is associated with PL practices that tend to equalize the positiolot of power in lineages or hierarchical religious institutions. (In short, the Platform Sutra idea about immanence and equality is completely deceptive about what actually happens in Chinese Buddhist institutions as their "roundness" is restored - colleagues please review Welch's Practice of Chinese Buddhism, and see for example how the people in the Amitabha recitation hall treat each other as compared to the people in the dhyana hall) [colleagues, I would love to hear about some counterexamples here about the political implications of immanence that can be substantiated sociologically] d) It seems to us that this political difference was completely clear to Asians traditionally. The political difference was suppressed in China (see new book by Ter Haar, White Lotus Teachings...)(the reason Ch'an rhetoric dominates the later "synthesis" of Ch'an and PL is probably because the Chinese neo-Confucian elites felt more comfortable with monistic language); on the other hand the political difference between monism and onistic rhetorical framework, but apparently combine this with a large monistic interest in a monistic (though perhaps not totalitarian in any modern sense) Buddhist state at the same time] e) I have found it rather easy to show students here at FSU the difference between the political implications of "outside Buddha" (heterogenous, less mediated) and "inside Buddha" (monistic, more mediated) rhetorics. Since politics is of such extreme importance to the way Buddhism will, or will not, be communicated in the USA, they are beginning to wonder why so little of the reading in print that I can now offer them seems to deal intelligibly with the political issues in Buddhist rhetorics. Another way to put it is, why do Western Buddhist students seem predominantly interested in monistic, immanentest Buddhist rhetorics (in spite of the obvious political associations) and less interested in bipolar/dyadic rhetorics (in spite of the facts that 1) PL was of more important to more course the Shin version of PL reconfigures the conventional mythos significantly and does away with the concept of the "otherworldly" PL; but Shin is of course so easy to understand that I assume everyone already knows about it] from: Galen Amstutz, Department of Religion, 231 Williams Bldg. R-15, Florida State University, Tallahassee FL 32306-1029 (904)644-0213 fax:(904)644-7225 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 08:37:34 EDT From: BUDDHA-L Subject: Buddhist Studies programs ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm compiling a list of Grad programs in Buddhist Studies. I'd appreciate any info people could send regarding programs they're familiar with. Please email to dharma@netcom.com Thanks in advance. In gassho, Barry -- BUDDHA-L - via FidoNet node 1:125/1 UUCP: ...!uunet!kumr!shelter!33!BUDDHA-L INTERNET: BUDDHA-L@f33.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 10:41:53 EDT From: prebish@acs.ucalgary.ca Subject: Re: Buddhist Studies programs ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear Barry, In the Fall of 1992, I undertook a modest research project on Buddhologists and Buddhist Studies Programs in the United States. I currently have in my possession extensive information on 87 academic scholars of Buddhism in America and, although I was less successful in soliciting information on academic programs of study, have data on perhaps a half-dozen programs. I am currently collating this data for presentation at the American Academy of Religion Annual Meeting in Washington, D.C. in November. If you contact me privately, I will be happy to share the collated results with you. The privacy of the individual respondents will, of course, be protected. Charles Prebish The University of Calgary prebish@acs.ucalgary.ca 403/220-5886 ------------------------------ End of BUDDHA-L Digest - 1 Oct 1993 to 4 Oct 1993 ************************************************* From taoism-l-owner@coombs.anu.edu.au Mon Oct 4 17:32:35 1993 Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 16:39:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jon C. Slenk" To: TAOISM-L@coombs.anu.edu.au Subject: Zen ?= Taosim Fred: Is Peter Merel writes: The zenist wants to experience reality as deeply as possible, to lose his 'self' and become pure awareness, in zazen. The taoist may benefit from the same practice of course - instructions like those in ttc ch 10 certainly bear a resemblance to zazen. And the taoist will wish to apprehend his experience as sharply as he can, just as the zenist. However the taoist doesn't simply eschew the abstractions that he has constructed in his world, the 'ten thousand things'. He recognises that these abstractions have utility, that he cannot be aware without them, and that by nurturing them as he does himself, without interfering with them in the sense of ttc ch 29, he follows the Tao. Me: So in the small reading I've done wrt Zen, I've seen different types of enlightenment, or different stages. Included in these are two stages I keep thinking about: the void, and "just like this." The void allows you to blow away your concepts so you can be ready to understand/accept/deal with others. The "just like this" is when you are the mirror - red comes, and you reflect red. Red goes, and you do not retain any red. Anyway. The "just like this" stage "recognizes that these abstrations have utility," but they aren't the totality of things. One can easily swap those out and use other abstractions. One can swap ALL abstractions out. Basically, you are free to relate to things as you should, unclouded. You react, you don't act. It's said that the person who has reached the "just like this" stage has only found what was with her all along and, indeed, to outside observers you are just like you were. Strange. Taoist enlightenment strikes me as this "just like this" stage of Zen. -Jon. ---------------+--------------------+-------------- angst+@cmu.edu robotics institute everything is jon slenk carnegie mellon disclaimed pittsburgh pa