From: bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us (bob pasker) Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles Subject: Re: riding in groups In article <79088@ut-emx.uucp>, captain@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Bran Muffin) writes: > So, my question to all you experienced, knowlegeble group riders is: > what are the rules for riding in groups? here are paul thompson's two cents: -------------- Begin Enclosed Text ---------------- Here's something I posted a few years back. It has two sections. The first lists signals you can use to communicate to other riders, and the second has tips for riding in groups. Here's some signals that I use when I go riding in groups. Most of them are pretty self-explanatory, so they work even with riders who haven't encountered them before. If anyone has more, I'd like to hear them. Point to tank - I need gas, stop at the next station Point at ground - Careful, there's something on the road (Note that you aren't pointing at the hazard necessarily, as this might not be convenient) Also, point at ground, rub fingers together - road is slippery. Flash brake lights very rapidly - Major watch out! Be prepared to stop QUICK. Point at sign - read the sign. If it's a highway sign with multiple exits listed, hold up the number of fingers corresponding to which exit you want (e.g. two fingers for the second exit listed) Point at another rider, then pat leg - you want that rider to come alongside you (usually so you can talk) Point at another rider, then point to side of road - pull over now. Arm out, palm back - stay behind me Arm out, forward waving - go past me Waving arm in quick downward motion, with palm down and parallel to ground - slow down! Often used for bikes traveling in the opposite direction to warn of hazard or police. Tap top of helmet, or hand on helmet - cop nearby (This signal is designed to be both noticable and undecipherable by the cop) Point forward, shrug shoulders - I don't know where we're going, I probably shouldn't be leading! Little wave to oncoming motorcyclist - "Aren't motorcycles great?" Finally, when someone gives you a signal, you should nod your head so they know you understand, since they can't see your face very well behind a helmet. Next, here are some hints for formations for various types of riding: On the highway - staggered within one lane to provide good visibility for all riders. Lead rider should ride smoothly, and not shoot into gaps that aren't big enough for the whole group (if possible). Leader also should point out exits in advance by pointing to signs, and get in the correct lane soon enough so the entire pack can follow safely. When changing lanes, the leader should maintain the same relative position in the new lane, so the stagger doesn't have to propagate all the way back. Riders should try to note how many are behind them. Everyone should know what the exit is before hand just in case. Riders should not pass each other, as it messes up the stagger and makes it hard to keep track of where everyone is in the pack. Canyon Bombing - Single file, fastest to slowest. Leaders should stop at intersections if there's a chance someone could make a wrong turn, and also periodically (perhaps every 10 minutes) to make sure everybody's still there. Be sure to signal turns well in advance. Don't fixate on the rider ahead, watch the road. If this is a problem, drop back. When passing cars, don't assume that when the rider ahead of you goes, you can too, or that they won't abort their pass and nail the brakes! When passing multiple cars, watch for the cars deciding to pass also! Glance in your mirrors before pulling out. City Streets - Two per lane at stops, staggered while riding. Don't split traffic if not everyone has their own lane. Signal and get in the correct lane in plenty of time. Avoid unnecessary lane changes. With larger groups it won't be possible to stay together, so split into smaller groups. If someone gets stranded at a light (leaders must watch for this!), the leaders can pull to the side of the road in single file and wait for them, assuming there aren't too many leaders. In all cases, the leaders must keep track of what is happening behind them, as it is much more difficult to pass information forward than back. It can also be a good idea to designate a "sweeper", generally an experienced rider who agrees to ride last in line and make sure everyone is OK. It's much more enjoyable (and safe) when everyone in the group follows the same plan. Happy riding! -- Paul Thompson Apple Computer DoD #47 -------------- End Enclosed Text ------------------ -- bob pasker (bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us ) From: blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com (Dances With Bikers) Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles Subject: Re: riding in groups captain@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Bran Muffin) writes: >So, my question to all you experienced, knowlegeble group riders is: >what are the rules for riding in groups? Paul Thompson has a good list of group riding tips. But it's a good idea to agree on things before you set out, since things seem to vary from area to area & group to group. For example, some signal "Clear To Pass" by waving in a "come on" manner, while others just stick out an arm like a left turn signal. Trying to get too fancy & complex is just likely to confuse people though, keep it to a few vital signals. >I've read the MSF book, but it fails to take into account a huge >group of squids travelling at mach .1 as they ride 3 feet off >your rear tire, and scream by you in tight corners. If someone wants to go faster, move away from the center to the edge, and wave them by. If you're stuck behind a slower rider, be polite and get their attention (flashing your headlight or tooting your horn would probably be considered polite, flipping their kill switch off probably wouldn't :-) before passing. Unless there's a couple of lanes in your direction, I'd call passing in turns ill-advised for group riding. >Rather than tell these guys to just get lost, I'd like to educate >them in the socially acceptable ways of group riding. Surely there >is some way that squids, Big Dods, and little dods can all group >ride safely, yet funly (-; together. There's no way that everyone is going to be happy riding at the same pace, but smaller, self-selecting, groups seem to work well. A good start might be designate "fast" & "slow" groups (substitute clever names as appropriate), and let it sort itself out from there. I've found that there's always riders that are faster & slower, so finding someone to ride with usually isn't a problem. To maintain the illusion of a mass group ride, have several meeting places designated along the route, so that everyone can regroup. -- Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com BIX:blaine_g 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108 Favorite road signs: Dumper of Dirtbikes #46 FJ1200 Winding Road Next 77 Miles My other motorcycle is a Quadracer Caution: Passing Areas Not Marked From: bill@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (William E. Johns;S23015) Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles Subject: Re: riding in groups In article <79088@ut-emx.uucp> captain@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Bran Muffin) writes: > >I've only been riding in groups a short while now, but I'm noticing >quite a variety of group riding tactics, some of which don't go well >together. > >So, my question to all you experienced, knowlegeble group riders is: >what are the rules for riding in groups? Where should one ride in >relation to others; how should one pass other riders; what is the >recommended space cushion; what signals are used to communicate >with one another, etc.??? In groups we ride staggered formation about 1 second apart. At least that's the theory. Every now and then we get someone who is not aware of the formation, keeps changing sides, forcing every one behind to play musical lane positions. Sorta like a liter-bike ballet. This is the approach on ordinary highways. The formation changes when you get to twisties. Here the fastest go first, with the slowest last. Single file when going fast or in twisties, or in any situation where room to move laterally is needed. In our group rides we don't pass, particularly in twisties. We _do_ take turns leading if we are all sorta matched. If there is someone who is pushing I will slow way up and wave them on. There just ain't any awards for getting to lunch 22 seconds before someone else that is worth a risk of a drop. Depending on roads, radar detectors will lead. About the only signals I've ever seen that work are 1) tapping the helmet= I see a cop, 2) tapping the helmet and then whirling the hand or finger around in a circle = We are being scanned. >I've read the MSF book, but it fails to take into account a huge >group of squids travelling at mach .1 as they ride 3 feet off >your rear tire, and scream by you in tight corners. These riders are fools. Ride alone or find a new group. >Rather than tell these guys to just get lost, I'd like to educate >them in the socially acceptable ways of group riding. Surely there >is some way that squids, Big Dods, and little dods can all group >ride safely, yet funly (-; together. Trying to educate a squid is a total waste of riding time. It accomplishes nothing and annoys the squid. Ride Free, Bill ________________________________________________________________ bill@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu if you feel compelled to send email johnsw@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu if you seriously expect an answer AMA #500924 DoD #00314 WMTC #0002 SR= 2.125 Yamabeemer fjgs1200pdr100 740GLE KotV KotRR KotD #0001 :-) \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ If you walk, just walk. If you sit, just sit. If you ride, just ride. Above all, don't wobble. Zen saying (slightly modified) From: dab@vuse.vanderbilt.edu (The Nashville Flash) Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles Subject: Re: More ascii hand signals >> In article <5246@gdls.UUCP>, parker@gdls.UUCP (The Dougster) writes: >> |> easy, but how do you signal an eight with one hand? >> |> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> |> >> |> [one through five deleted - you figure 'em out] Simple... 6,7,8, and 9 are made by pointing DOWN 1,2,3, and 4 respectively. For the READER, add five to the number pointed DOWN to receive 6,7,8,9. This is a hell of a lot easier to remember than an assortment of fingers all pointed up. You can use ANY fingers you want, just point them down. Zero is a FIST so it is not confused with the universal sign for "OK." While on the subject: Pointing the index finger horizontally and slightly bent whilst wiggling it up and down means: "Need a bathroom (tree?) break." Little finger pointed up means "Interstate" Draw a triangle with the point down means "State (or county) Route" Exaggerated pointing two or three times in direction up, down, left, right means N,S,W,E respectively. Rolling motion with whole hand means either "miles" or "further" Swooping motion of hand and arm up and to the right means "exit" Exaggerated pointing to the tanks means "Need gas" To make a question, move your arm away from your body with your palm up. Using these signs you can say stuff like: "4th exit, 20 miles, state route 27 east, pee break." And the response, "OK. I need gas, too." ============================================================================ The Nashville Flash - dab@vuse.vanderbilt.edu - DoD # 412 From: mayer@sono.uucp (Ron Mayer) Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles Subject: Re: A question. [Riding with slower riders] klinger@ccu.umanitoba.ca <1992Sep14.211121.9389@ccu.umanitoba.ca> writes: >I went for a ride in the twisties with a couple of friends on Sunday. >One of them hasn't riden much in the last three years [...] >borrows my other friends spare bike, an RZ350, [...] > > What's the right thing to have done? Speaking from the perspective of one of the slower riders who fell in a group ride, I'd like to emphasize that there's nothing at wrong with they way you acted. There are a few things you can do to make the slow rider feel more comfortable (my ideas listed below); but if anything happens, the responsibility of the one who exceeded his ability. When a slow rider goes on a group ride, he realizes that parts of the group are going faster than he should. If he wants to push himself a bit, that's his personal choice; and if he falls, it's purely his fault. I would not have wanted anyone to slow down when I fell back. I knew I was pushing myself; but I thought it was within my limits. Unfortunatelly I was wrong. At the point I fell, my greatest feeling was guilt for wrecking the afternoon for those who helped me. I'm still trying to come up with an appropriate way to thank them. Perhaps helping those individuals out at some future event they may organize in the future, and also volunteering to take care of anyone who would need help on any future ride. I don't know. Any other good ideas? [No, I'm not offering to buy them each a new Ducati.] Tips on riding with a slow person (from a usually slow person): * Before the ride, let everyone know that it's ok to fall back, and that people will wait at specified locations (every intersection, in the ride I fell). * Make sure everyone knows the route, and have meeting places and times in case anyone gets lost. Even if everyone frequently stops, there may be a fear of getting lost. Look over the route on a map just before leaving. * If someone knows the route, have him explain the tricky parts to the slow rider before the trip. * If you have experienced riders who _want_ to go slow on the ride, have one follow the slow rider. If they're just ahead of the slow person, he'll be tempted to keep up even if they do end up exceeding his pace. Make sure he knows that those people following him actually want to be taking a slow ride. Make sure they leave him enough room. Anthing to be added to this list? I'll collate responses, and try to get "how to ride with slow riders" put in the FAQ. >see a bike and rider sliding across the road. >He was OK, [...] the bike was totalled. One possibly tricky issue is how to get the bike repaired if it wasn't insured. Just guessing; but I'd think it's fair if the guy who wrecked covered most of the costs, and they both got together and fixed the bike; but it kinda seems there should be some responsibility in loaning out a bike too. (If he died, should you sue his estate (sick:-)?) > I know if I was being left behind I would start to push it in order to >keep up, and if someone told me to take it easy when they loose me I >would feel insulted and even more adamant to keep up. I would feel even more insulted if they slowed down for me. Everyone should ride at their own pace. Anyway, how do you know his pace? If you're slightly exceeding his pace, he'll be much more likely to try to keep up than if he's left to go his own pace. If you let him lead, he'll constantly be wondering if he's going too slow and boring the people behind him. From: egreen@east.sun.com (Ed Green - Pixel Cruncher) Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles Subject: Re: A question. [Riding with slower riders In article 92Sep18102533@porky.sono.uucp, mayer@sono.uucp (Ron Mayer) writes: > >At the point I fell, my greatest feeling was guilt for wrecking the >afternoon for those who helped me. I'm still trying to come up with >an appropriate way to thank them. Perhaps helping those individuals >out at some future event they may organize in the future, and also >volunteering to take care of anyone who would need help on any future >ride. I don't know. Any other good ideas? Offer those fine people the use of your motorcycle so that when their friend visits from the East Coast they can go on a ride with him. :^) > * Make sure everyone knows the route, and have meeting places and > times in case anyone gets lost. If somebody's lost, what good is a meeting place? :^) Having one of the front riders station themselves at a key intersection and flag down the rest of the group works fairly well. (Unless they crash passing everybody to get back to the front and subsequently get a road named after them.) > * If you have experienced riders who _want_ to go slow on the ride, > have one follow the slow rider. If they're just ahead of the > slow person, he'll be tempted to keep up even if they do end up > exceeding his pace. No, no, no! Have them ride in front of the slow rider! I learned more about lines and braking by following Denizens thru the twisties than I could ever have gotten from book or figured out on my own. The novice is responsible for not outriding his limits, and the faster rider can pretty much gauge when he's smoking him and back it down a little, just keep his headlights in the mirror. This is the way CLASS instructors lead students around the track, and, I believe, how cooperative racers help out less experienced ones. > Anthing to be added to this list? I'll collate responses, and try > to get "how to ride with slow riders" put in the FAQ. I'd suggest making several of the meet-up stops planned short breaks. On some rides the fast guys get to the meet up point, stop, stretch, talk, answer mother nature, then get back on and are ready to go by the time the end of the pack arrives. The slow riders don't get a chance to stretch their legs and socialize, they just keep riding. --- Ed Green, former Ninjaite |I was drinking last night with a biker, Ed.Green@East.Sun.COM |and I showed him a picture of you. I said, DoD #0111 (919)460-8302 |"Go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (The Grateful Dead) --> |It seemed like the least I could do... From: mikel@berlioz.nsc.com (Michael G. Lohmeyer) Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles Subject: Re: Nick's Ride?/Road Rash In article noemi@synoptics.com (Noemi Berry) writes: >I agree with Jonathan that group rides can be pulled off, >but only if it's made that way. The DoD rides are in the >spirit of the DoD -- anarchy! Which works sometimes and >doesn't other times. > >Were the multiple crashes on that ride were due to poor >group dynamics or just GOE? (Gross Operator Error(s))? > >The tours (rides) that Jonathan refers to have very >specific rules that are outlined to the riders before >the ride, have a designated lead and sweep, the route >has usually been scouted, with lunch, gas and bathroom >stops planned (SOMETIMES we even get a map and a MENU >beforehand! ahem!). Riders who don't stick to the >guidelines are told about it quickly. Some people dislike >such structured rides, and hence stay away from them. This particular ride was one of the more organized rides I have been on with the DoD. Granted, it was not as orgainized as the tour rides with more strict rules as described above, but we started in a group with maps provided, a planned stopping point for lunch, etc. Someone was designated as the leader who knew where to go, and it was stated clearly that when you come to a Y in the road, that the last person must wait for the next person to show up so that the next person knows where to go. This allows people to ride at their own pace and not have to worry about Trying to keep up with the fast riders. Someone also was designated as the sweeper. BTW- Lissa Shoun organized the ride and was the sweeper. Curtis Jackson was the original group leader, but was passed by David Doudna who knew Sierra Road better. Curtis went down many miles after David passed him. The main difference that I see between the "organized tour" rides described above and the recent DoD ride where all the accidents occured is that the DoD ride was a little less structured so that poeple can ride at their own pace. In my opinion and from what I have heard and saw while I was on the ride, all the accidents that day had nothing to do with being on a group ride. When Nick went down, he was at the front of the pack. When Curtis went down, he was 2nd, and the one in front of him was no where in site. Curtis already said that he was not trying to catch the lead person. As for the 3rd guy that went down, I don't know about that one. If your out there, maybe you can explain. So, the accidents were not due to "poor group dynamics." I would hate to think that people stop going on these group rides because they fear they are putting themselves in greater danger doing so. This is ridiculous. If you have an accident in a group ride for the reasons that people have presented (feeling compelled to ride faster, fear of being left behind, etc.), you can blame no one but yourself. The most important thing about riding a bike is to know your limits and stay within them, no matter who your riding with. I guess that if you think you can't follow this rule in a group ride, or are unwilling to take responsibility for the consequences of not following it, then don't go on group rides. But remember, your the one who decides how far to twist the wrist, not the rest of the group. As far as orgainization of a ride, sometimes they are really organized, and somethings they are a "your on your own and we'll meet here for lunch" kind of ride (or just "your on your own"). Be sure you know what kind of ride your getting into. Mike ------------- Mike Lohmeyer | My projects (i.e. bike maintenance 101): mikel@berlioz.nsc.com | '73 CB500 I don't need no stinkin' 4th gear! San Jose CA | '76 DT400 Incredible power and no suspension!! DoD #808 | 2 '77 IT175 Both running now. Time for a bike sale. | '78 DT175 Pretty and with no compression. From: egreen@East.Sun.COM (Ed Green - Pixel Cruncher) Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles Subject: Re: Group rides (was: Re: Nick's Ride?/Ro In article k8e@esunix.sim.ES.COM, blgardne@esunix.sim.ES.COM (Blaine Gardner) writes: > >First guy to a fork/ >junction/intersection waits for ALL the other riders and points them in >the right direction. Rinse, repeat. The faster riders will be able to >ride faster and still keep pace with the pack, and nobody gets lost. Ask Bob Pasker about the dangers of this approach. Not that it was a particularly significant factor in his crash (may have been, I don't know), but it is obvious that this strategy requires a lot of passing. In the twisties, safe passing must be carefully planned and set up, distracting concentration from other tasks. Sometimes it's best to let the go-fasters go fast. They just get an extra posing session at the periodic meet-up points. >On the other hand, I've learned a lot from following better riders, that >I wouldn't have if they were always behind me. Another consideration: having a rider on one's tail through the twisties, and blowing by on a straight, can be distracting (dangerous) to a less experienced rider. --- Ed Green Ed.Green@East.Sun.COM DoD #0111 (919)460-8302 Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 14:25 PDT From: safety@myrddin.imat.com To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: SAFETY digest 132 SAFETY Digest 132 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: SAFETY digest 131 by eguzman@nwpx12.nts.uswc.uswest.com (Ed Guzman) 2) Re: SAFETY digest 131 by paul@Legato.COM (Paul Summers) 3) Sport riding, statistics, my first time by perk@ingres.com (Paul Perkovic -- +1 510 748 2524) 4) Re: Sport riding by gowen@rsbs-central.anu.edu.au (Neal Gowen) 5) Plenty of Traction? by "Carl Liebold" 6) Re-Plenty of Traction/Sport Ridin' by waller_m@med.wcc.govt.nz 7) Re: (Sport) riding in groups by azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic No. 1 Date: Tue, 7 Jun 94 17:10:00 -0500 From: eguzman@nwpx12.nts.uswc.uswest.com (Ed Guzman) To: safety@myrddin.imat.com Subject: Re: SAFETY digest 131 Message-ID: <9406072210.AA20541@nwpx12.uswest.com> Robert Kennedy's groups ride account snipped... i too have been in situations where a group ride has made me VERY uncomfortable. as a matter of fact, i left. it wasn't that i was riding too fast but that as "tail-end charlie" i could see all the stupidity going on in front of me: passing inside, double yellow passes with little line of sign, etc. my skill level has improved such that i'm not a "tail-end charlie" so much anymore when i ride with friends BUT i'm much more careful about my riding partners and i keep it to a minimum. say 4 or 5 max. Robert, you are correct: "Alex" should've slowed down. while i real- ize it's hard to admit you aren't as good as someone else at something the stakes are way too high here for bravado. please note, i'm not condemning speed. there's a time and a place for everything, btw. i AM condemning stupidity and poor judgement... fwiw. ============================================================================= Ed Guzman |:['/ eguzman@nwpx12.mnet.uswest.com / I do NOT speak for U S West! ============================================================================= Motos, Lionels, Single Malts, Cigars: Ride 'em, Run 'em, Drink 'em, Smoke 'em ============================================================================= ------------------------------ Topic No. 2 Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 15:31:11 +0800 From: paul@Legato.COM (Paul Summers) To: safety@myrddin.imat.com Subject: Re: SAFETY digest 131 Message-ID: <9406072231.AA02648@dragon.Legato.COM> > Why are you limiting this to fatalities rather than accidents? I was just trying to protect myself from a flood of data. Oh, well, why not take a look at everything? Send it all in. > How often are people sport riding solo? I would say that 99% of my sport riding is done solo. There are only about 3 times in the past 4 years that I have done sport rides with one other person, and only once with 2 other people. None with more than that. I'm probably missing out on something here, but I just don't have the time on weekends to get hooked up with group rides. I'm usually bicycling on Saturdays and Sundays. I must say that the one time I was out with two others, I did indeed feel the urge to "push it". I had to keep telling myself that this wasn't a race. > Does anyone know what the Hurt report data is on this? My recollection of discussions of the Hurt report from my MSF classes was that the most common type of accident was a car turning left (U.S.) in front of an on-coming bike at an intersection. I believe the next most common accident was "rural, single vehicle", or "he lost it on a curve out in the boonies". I seem to recall that alcohol was involved in 70% of motorcycle fatalities (either biker or driver), and greater than 50% (can't remember the exact number) of accidents (not just fatalities) involved unlicensed riders. On another note, I just finished re-reading Tom Wolfe's book, "The Right Stuff". One thing it emphasises is the ego of the military pilot. The pilots loved nothing better (after flying, that is) than to jump into a hot car and go tear up the pavement somewhere, after knocking back a few at the local tavern of course, to keep up the tradition of "Flying & Drinking and Drinking & Driving". I think there are some comparable qualities in your typical biker squid. By simply owning a hot bike, it somehow endows you with exceptional riding abilities (i. e. "The Right Stuff"), allowing you to go faster and react quicker than a mere mortal (i. e. someone without "The Right Stuff" who doesn't ride a bike). Why not get in the cars and go out for a little proficiency run? It seemed that every fighter jock thought himself an ace driver, and he would do anything to obtain a hot car, especially a sports car, and the drunker he was, the more convinced he would be about his driving skills, as if the right stuff, being indivisible, carried over into any enterprise whatsoever, under any conditions. A little proficiencey run, boys? (There's only one way to find out!)... More fighter pilots died in automobiles than in airplanes. I'd recommend the book to anyone interested in the effect of high performance machinery on the human ego, and in the history of the space program. The book is much better than the movie. ------------- paul@legato.com | DoD 92160 | Tandems: ride one or follow one | Slow-Quick-Quick Paul Summers | 84 VF700S | 91 Cannondale Tandem | 1 2 3 4 ------------------------------ Topic No. 3 Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 15:36:42 -0700 From: perk@ingres.com (Paul Perkovic -- +1 510 748 2524) To: Safety@myrddin.imat.com Cc: PERK@ingres.com Subject: Sport riding, statistics, my first time Message-ID: <199406072236.AA21745@pony.ingres.com> Thanks to Robert Kennedy for a very nice write-up. I should admit that I'm a relatively new subscriber and haven't been following this topic extensively, however there are a number of problems with the general thesis (sport riding on weekends results in higher fatalities). Although this intuitively seems reasonable to me, it is hard to quantify. What is "sport riding"? Is it opposed to "work riding", i.e., commuting, or are there other categories (e.g., "pleasure riding")? Or is it any riding done in a group? (Presumably not, if people think they can "sport ride" alone.) Even if you can provide meaningful definitions, what measurements are possible? Fatalities per 100,000 passenger miles? Fatalities per 100,000 riding hours? Fatalities per 100,000 group miles? A creative statistician could produce any desired results. I am not Robert's "Alex", but my first SF Bay Area ride about five years ago sounds a lot like his. I had recently moved here from Cambridge, MA, where I had taken an MSF Basic Rider Course and done some riding with friends from work, on the mostly flat urban or gently-sloping suburban roads nearby. My longest ride had been from Cambridge to New Haven, CT, a few hours on boring Interstate highways. My total experience was less than twelve months of occasional pleasure riding and only a few thousand miles total (including an insane trip to Laconia, NH, one summer). When I arrived at Informix I was introduced to Unix, then to the Net, and finally to rec.motorcycles. My daily commute was about 24 miles round trip in suburban or freeway traffic, entirely on the motorcycle the first month, then a mix of car and motorcycle. I was overjoyed to learn of the "cycles" list and weekend group rides, which I heard about at a net.party at the Asylum in Belmont. I agreed to go on the next one, and arranged to meet someone about 6:30am for the ride to Cordelia. It was going to be what I now know as the "traditional" Wine Country ride, leaving at 8 am. After finding the home of my new acquaintance (and discovering that he had stayed up too late the previous night, and wasn't going on the ride after all), I made my way over unfamiliar freeways (92, 680, etc.) to the meeting place. Everything looked like it would be wonderful. There were a dozen or so Denizens on this ride (although I don't think the DoD designation had been invented yet). The group guidelines explained to me were essentially what Robert outlined, and intellectually I understood them. The group knew that I was a relatively inexperienced rider and new to California, and I willingly took my place at the end (or perhaps just before the end) of the group as we set out. Napa Valley in autumn is breathtakingly beautiful, I am told. Unfortunately, all I saw of it on that first ride was the road in front of me, the edge of that road and the centerline, and the rapidly-receding taillight of the bike in front of me. Those who know me know that I am a mild-mannered, fairly conservative, normally level-headed crazy guy well past his high-testosterone teen-age years and with no need to prove his "macho" image to anyone. (Some have used the nickname "Prudence" in abusing me; and I love San Francisco because a guy can be appreciated for having a negative macho quotient.) Despite all the assurances, despite all the warnings to ride at my own pace, despite all my intellectual analyses, what did I do? Naturally, I tried my best to keep up with the guy in front of me, even though it took all my attention and all my concentration (and probably all my adrenaline). The pace had been described as "brisk", if I recall correctly. I couldn't believe that my motorcycle could actually go that fast with me one it, or that I really could make it around all of those nice twisties in one piece. To tell the honest truth, I was riding above my abilities, and very lucky. I quickly abandoned keeping up with the group (particularly after one level right-hander where I found myself wide into the oncoming lane, and realized that if there had been a car there I would be dead). Nevertheless, here I was enjoying the excitement of pushing my limits, finding out that I actually could "push the envelope", and so relieved when I finally caught up with the group at the first junction point that I dismounted and headed up to talk with everyone as my bike fell over on its side, where the kickstand should have been. The temptation to ride too fast is overwhelming, even when you're not still an immortal youth proving yourself in front of a group of your neighborhood buddies. It is no wonder that group rides often have accidents. What I found surprising -- even appalling -- is the sense of pride or honor some people take in their accidents, recounting them like old war stories. But then I never could understand why old war stories are so popular. The roads out here are thrilling, and some of our regular routes are full of unexpected dangers that you are lulled into discounting because they are so infrequent -- sort of like earthquakes, most of the time they don't happen. You can be riding for dozens of miles on a twisty, narrow road through the mountains without seeing another vehicle, winning every gamble you take on blind curves. Then suddenly you come around a curve to face a Jeep also believing itself to be the only vehicle for miles around. Or a couple of mountain bicyclists stopped for a rest. Or a minor rockfall from a recent storm, or some leaves or other debris, or evidence that the road is also used by horses from time to time. Much to my surprise, in our group rides the lead rider isn't usually the one who has an accident. Someone else further back, counting on the road ahead being clear, the turns safely navigable at the speed the leader has chosen, is usually the one who misjudges something and goes down. So far, I've been exceedingly lucky in seeing only minor mishaps, no fatalities. But all the evidence of my personal experience leads me to believe that the original hypothesis is likely to be true. By the way, if I remember correctly this day ended about 16 hours and 435 miles after it began, long after dark, with a chilly ride home down I-280. It was the longest ride of my life, and, in retrospect, also one of the best. In my mind, most of it was in the "sport riding" category, although a lot of the return home was more at a "pleasure riding" pace. Can a group travel through beautiful California countryside at a "pleasure" pace? Sure! And when it does, are you planning on counting those hours and miles to reduce, or increase, the relative fatality rate you might compute for "sport" riding? / perk Paul Perkovic / Standards Manager / Ingres / +1 510 748 2524 / perk@ingres.com This affiliation in is the process of changing to Computer Associates, perhaps ------------------------------ Topic No. 4 Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 10:19:56 +1000 From: gowen@rsbs-central.anu.edu.au (Neal Gowen) To: safety@myrddin.imat.com Subject: Re: Sport riding Message-ID: <29C9CA37B29@rsbs-central.anu.edu.au> One of the major problems people experience in group riding, is that they concentrate on the rear end of the bike in front too much and not on whole picture of the road ahead. This is especially true in corners where the lead rider may take a reasonable line. The people behind gradually go wider and wider as each goes through because they are fixating on the bike in front and not turning their head through the corner. Compounding this is the lack of a reasonable gap that most riders forget to keep between them and the rider in front. The end result is often for the tail-end bikes to run very wide on corners and over the centreline. Neal G. --------------------------------------------- Neal Gowen, VFR750FR, TY250B Research School of Biological Sciences Australian National University email: gowen@rsbs-central.anu.edu.au voice: 61 6 249 2492 fax: 61 6 249 2603 snail: GPO Box 475 Canberra ACT 2601 --------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Topic No. 5 Date: 7 Jun 1994 18:00:06 U From: "Carl Liebold" To: "Safety" Cc: matthew_hsu@engtwomac.SynOptics.COM, Subject: Plenty of Traction? Message-ID: <9406080057.AA17316@SynOptics.COM> Plenty of Traction? I've got some long comments below. I've been watching this list for a while and finally have some comments: Robert Kennedy wrote a really interesting piece, which I seem to agree with: lots snipped -The first was during that phase of my inexperience when I was learning that "there's a lot more cornering traction than you think."- lots more snipped This always shocks me. Let me share some thoughts: I grew up riding alone, and then raced without partners or crew. For my first 12 years of riding, I never had a riding buddy (except for 1 year in college), and never had ridden in a group (never!) except when on the track. Last year I started riding with two friends for the first time: My new roomate, and another very good friend who just bought his first bike. I HAVE NEVER RIDDEN AS FAST IN A GROUP AS I HAVE ALONE! (I don't count highway straight line runs in this statement.) Maybe it's because my first bikes were not super sports bikes, but I always figured traction was at a minimum. And my crashes emphasized this. Of course I also grew up riding on the east coast with rain and potholes and gravel. Most of my street crashes involved being surprised by gravel mid corner. My only tipover in California was a surprise sand patch too! I think the idea that "there is alot more corning traction than you think" is hogwash (no offense Robert, please don't be insulted, I think you say as you gained experience you changed your mind about this.). IMHO The only time this statement makes sense is when you are stuck entering a corner too fast and the choice is to run wide or lean more. Leaning more is always safer than entering unknown territory, or crossing the yellow in a blind situation or running into a guardrail. I tend to say,"There is always less traction than you think!" I find new riders have trouble feeling imminent slides. For instance, most modern tires on a modern sports bike permit stoppies when warm. How many riders can do a stoppy? How good is the average riders ability to judge traction? I mean, the only way to undercover this limit is to exceed it. I bet nobody learns to stoppy before they are comfortable sliding the front wheel in a straight line. The same things exist for cornering traction. Unfortunately, I've exceeded cornering traction a bunch and crashed. I've learned that if you haven't just examined the corner one lap before, you don't know how much traction is available. And on a blind corner on a mountain road? Typically when riding fast on the street, I retrace the same path at an elevated speed. In a group, people are not willing to do this usually. I find that in the corners, both of my friends, who are significantly less experienced than I am, are willing to go faster! This frustrates me and I tend to be just be amazed. I think they operate on the premis: "there's a lot more cornering traction than you think." *Splat* One more comment while I'm at it: A couple months ago I went to Sears Point for a class. Those of you who also read the ducati list may remember I had a major slide, on clean pavement, with good tires. I was lucky and got away with it. When I started the slide my knee wasn't even on the ground yet, but I fell onto my knee, hard, because of the slide. Because I was at max concentration, and was lucky, I recovered it. Now typically, I would have expected I would have had lots more traction available. It was a clean track, I was riding smoothly, etc. One of the instructors had followed me the lap before, and when I consulted him after he essentially said, "You were going darn fast, and those aren't race compound tires, what do you expect? But it was fun right? Thats what it's all about!" And he's was right: thats what I was there for, to relive my old racing days. I went right back out. But for the street it was a reminder that there is less traction than I thought. I would have expected to be going faster before my tires started to slide. For my summary, I agree with Paul's summary! But I'd add that: if you are one of the people that think there is "plenty" of traction available, AND you are trying to go "fast", you should really consider slowing down. The fast guys seem to always be concerned with how limited their traction really is! Carl ------------------------------ Topic No. 6 Date: Wed, 08 Jun 1994 14:26:49 EDT From: waller_m@med.wcc.govt.nz To: safety@myrddin.imat.com Subject: Re-Plenty of Traction/Sport Ridin' Message-ID: <0097FA62.E2A290F9.3@med.wcc.govt.nz> I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M Date: 08-Jun-1994 13:22 NZT From: Mike Waller WALLER_M Dept: Cityworks Tel No: 801-3251 TO: Remote Addressee ( _safety@myrddin.imat.com ) Subject: Re-Plenty of Traction/Sport Ridin' Re the last few postings on "sport riding " reminds me of the basic rules we were taught as Plods on the training courses back in my heady days as a brain out motorcyclists flying around the back roads in North Wales/Yorkshire/Cumbria and the Lake District. Until we all got to know our own and each others capabilities, we rode at the speed of the SLOWEST member of the group, who was always placed at the front, with the instructor second place, (there were only ever 4 plods to an instructor). (I must mention that police officers under advanced instruction in the UK are exempt from the speed limit) this puts a clearer definition on the term slowest!!!!. One incident springs to mind when I was (I thought) doing exceeding well in negotiating a series of bends a run through from Bala through to Dolgellau. Our force (Merseyside) had a policy of using all the road, this meant crossing the centre line to provide a better, earlier view, (and ease the radius). We NEVER crossed the solid whites (or yellows elsewhere in the world) but where there were only centre lane markings, it was expected that you were out as far right as possible for left handers (UK) usually the right hand gutter..... anyway here I was going through at about 110mph when from nowhere appeared the instructor on my left (inside) waving frantically in a forward motion......and shouting at me through the head to head set......... MORE SPEED......MORE SPEED.....! 8 * Things got better from then on, because our instructor gave us the confidence to believe that we could do it....it is different in an ordinary on road situation when it is a "we're all mates" type framework where no-one is "in charge" of the group riding, and everyone relies on the promise of each doing as they are told, following all the guidelines....NOT!!!. Informal as a group ride may be, when an accident happens the responsibility for that regardless of the cause and result, must be borne by all of the riders in the group....as motorcyclists we all should be out there looking out for each other. Mike E-mail: waller_m@wcc.govt.nz ------------------------------ Topic No. 7 Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 09:49:51 UNDEFINED From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) To: safety@myrddin.imat.com Subject: Re: (Sport) riding in groups Message-ID: >How often are people sport riding solo? In the past two years, only one >weekend have I ventured out sport riding by myself. I've often headed out >with just one other rider and done plenty of group rides with folks from >surrounding areas. Dunno if other people follow a similiar trend, but if >so then statistically, more accidents will occur in groups because more >sport riding is done in groups. It'll outweigh the statistics. In a group there is more to concentrate on and more to hit. And most of the group will be pushing it, riding outside their limits and those of the road, and leaving insufficient space. I only ride alone nowadays. If others want to tag along, I take the Landrover. You are only safe on your own. With other folk on the road, you introduce unconstrained elements and increase your risk. MOst riders/drivers overestimate their ability and choose to ride slightly outside it. You dont want to be near em from choice. >I went on a group ride this past weekend with several people, some of >whom I'd ridden with quite a bit in the past, and some of whom I had >just met. There was one man (I'll call him Alex -- not his real name) >whom I invited to ride with the group, and who told me he had never >ridden with any of us before. Since I knew he was new to the group, I >explained the "ground rules" of the way my friends and I usually >conduct group rides, and they are: And never ride in a group with folk you dont know. This is anaologous to letting a stranger hold the rope on a chop route! >* The ride is self-paced, i.e., you go a speed you feel comfortable > with. In particular, no one will object to your going as slowly as > you wish. The point of this provision is so that no one should feel > pressure to keep up with anyone else. This is easy to say, but most folk will find it impossible to acheive. Very few people are sufficiently secure to have no competitive urges at all. ------------------------------ End of SAFETY Digest 132 ************************ Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 09:52:05 -0500 From: holbrook@world.std.com (Mark D Holbrook) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: How to Organize a Group Ride How to Organize a Group Ride 1) Pick a route. Pick an easily-found starting place. Pick one or more places to stop and regroup along the route. Make them interesting. 2) Go over the route ahead of time and note all mileages between stops, turns, landmarks, etc. to make a detailed route sheet that any idiot can follow. (This step is unnecessary if you pick a route like "out Route 2, up Route 7, back on Route 9" but many people will find this uninteresting and not show up.) 3) Plot the route on a copy of a map so the general flow can be seen. 4) Make enough copies of the route sheet and map for everyone who might show up. Send the route sheet to those who request it. Keep their names in mind for step 9 below. 5) Announce a starting date and time. Give people enough time to get there. Include a rain date or announce a "rain or shine" or "cancel if raining" rain policy. Recommend that everyone who might not just follow the person in front of them show up with a tank bag with a transparent map holder or some similar device to hold their route sheets and map in front of them. In the announcement, tell them to show up fully gassed up and give them the location of the nearest open) gas station. 6) On the big day, gather the people together before the ride starts and get their attention. You may go around and collect their names/net-names in your little notebook if you like ahead of time. 7) Ask "Who needs gas?" Tell those that haven't gassed up that they're illiterate dickheads. Then tell them to pick out someone to follow when they get back from getting gas since they'll miss the rest of the talk. 8) In the meantime, give the rest of them the safety lecture: Don't ride beyond your abilities, don't feel pressured to go too fast, don't tailgate, spread out when going fast, stay in staggered formation when going slow, use your signals, stay in sight of the person in front of you and the person behind within your group, don't ride beyond your abilities, you're ultimately responsible for your own behavior, and don't ride beyond your abilities. Optionally, ask if anyone wants to leave you with emergency contact and/or medical information in case they crash and are rendered unconscious. (It would be a good idea for you to bring (or arrange for a someone else to bring) a first-aid kit and a cellular phone on the ride, too.) 9) Pay attention. This is a key part. You have to continue speaking, although some of this can be done in the announcement. Depending on how many people show up, announce that you'd like them to break up into groups based on riding style preferences. Define the various types of groups for them, e.g. "the FAST group(s) will probably exceed the speed limit by 20 mph regularly and pass on double-yellow lines," "the MEDIUM group(s) will sometimes exceed the speed limit but won't be pushing it," and "the SLOW group(s) will obey most speed limits and admire the scenery at leisure." Ask for a show of hands for interest in each type of group. Based on that, decide how many groups of each type there will be (split and/or consolidate as appropriate) and announce that. Ask for experienced volunteers to lead each group. Designate some if you don't get enough volunteers. Try to identify some that won't get lost. (Better yet, line up some group leaders ahead of time and have them join you on the scouting ride.) Identify each leader and designate their groups as FAST, MEDIUM, etc. (or FAST-1, FAST-2, etc. as appropriate.) Then, using a show of hands, sort out who's going with what leader and balance the number of people between groups of the same type. Then announce that they will leave in order: fastest group first, slowest group last. Make sure the group leaders know what order they belong in (so faster groups don't have to thread through slower groups). Ask the leaders to be responsible for monitoring drop-outs. 10) Wait for the fuckin' morons who went to fill up and then have everybody saddle up. Hope that the leaders will take off with their groups in order, because by this time the whole business is completely out of your control. 11) Go for a ride. At the major stops (e.g. lunch), wait for the slower groups to catch up, especially if there is a group activity planned at the stop. 12) Get together and swap lies at the end. The key thing here is to get the larger group organized (ORGANIZED) into smaller groups and get them on the road in speed order. We have been uneven in doing this on the various rides we've had in the past. Obviously, maps and route sheets would be left out for relatively spontaneous rides like the SF, but the safety lecture and group organizing are essential to give the greatest pleasure to the greatest number. Newer riders, riders who don't have much experience riding in groups, and newbies to your particular group can all be successfully integrated into your ride with these techniques. Mark (Holbrook@world.std.com) "Back roads. Period."